Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Lonewarrior]

It would be nice if they just stick with Sig and mass produce them here in India which will also lead to price reduction.

But sadly the requirement of 7.62x51mm assault rifle isn't sufficient enough to make mass production feasible.

 

[ManhattanProject]

people who doubt a DI ar15 should watch this video, this guy has fired 6000+ rounds through his BCM without any cleaning. this is the latest part.

 

[ALPHA126383]

people who doubt a DI ar15 should watch this video, this guy has fired 6000+ rounds through his BCM without any cleaning. this is the latest part.

Noice. DI in a bigger calibre like .308 is more accurate for quick fire compared to piston.That is why we went for AR10 in SIG.

Not that I want to make this into a pure DI vs LSP/SSP debate but in a battle environment where there is muck, dust, smoke, sand<abrasive or corrosive>, sweat, blood, dirt,heat and considering less cleaning would it last those 6000 rounds without stoppages...

Here is a marine giving his POV how DI AR isn't something he trusted in battlefield.


Point being in a battle how reliable is it.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Couldn't help sharing this article...ofcourse in diff contexts diff weapons may shine whether AR or AK, but still an interesting read.

In 2008 Afghan firefight, U.S. weapons failed: M4 rifle criticized as jam prone

Despite the military's insistence that U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

www.cleveland.com

 

[vampyrbladez]

In such orders of thousands <esp CARACAL> what is the probability that for Navy OTB capable GP short barrel rifle be ordered in limited numbers for their VBSS teams and MARCOS. Or does the Navy order like Army from its own pocket...

Indian Navy will get SCAR H and L rifles just like Para SF.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Noice. DI in a bigger calibre like .308 is more accurate for quick fire compared to piston.That is why we went for AR10 in SIG.

Not that I want to make this into a pure DI vs LSP/SSP debate but in a battle environment where there is muck, dust, smoke, sand<abrasive or corrosive>, sweat, blood, dirt,heat and considering less cleaning would it last those 6000 rounds without stoppages...

Here is a marine giving his POV how DI AR isn't something he trusted in battlefield.


Point being in a battle how reliable is it.

well seeing as how SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416, i think i would believe them rather than some random marine.
ak test
Ar15 test.
as you will see the ar is much more reliable in mud and sand, due to its closed system.
the US military isnt stupid to continue to rely on the ar15 for this long. A recent survey on the US army concluded more than 90% of the soldiers were satisfied with their weapon.
The only thing good about the ak is it runs without any maintenance.

 

[vampyrbladez]

well seeing as how SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416, i think i would believe them rather than some random marine.
ak test
Ar15 test.
as you will see the ar is much more reliable in mud and sand, due to its closed system.
the US military isnt stupid to continue to rely on the ar15 for this long. A recent survey on the US army concluded more than 90% of the soldiers were satisfied with their weapon.
The only thing good about the ak is it runs without any maintenance.

AR-15 does well in mud testing due to bolt sealing chamber.

AKM does well in extreme climatic conditions due to wider tolerances.

 

[ManhattanProject]

AR-15 does well in mud testing due to bolt sealing chamber.

AKM does well in extreme climatic conditions due to wider tolerances.

As far as i have seen the AK does better in arctic weather, freezing conditions. But everywhere else the AR15 workd better. The ar15 rusts less too due to its mostly aluminium construction.

 

[vampyrbladez]

BREAKING: Indian Army Orders More 716i Rifles from SIG Sauer

Posted 6 days ago in AR Patterned, Breaking News, Daily News, Defense, MIL/LE, Rifles by Matthew Moss

Over the past couple of years, India’s military has embarked on its most serious attempt to modernise its small arms to date. One of the key early successes in this effort was the selection and procurement of over 72,000 SIG Sauer 716i 7.62x51mm rifles in February 2019.

Following reports in several Indian media outlets, SIG Sauer have now confirmed to TFB that a second batch of 716i rifles has been ordered by the Indian Army. The initial 2019 order was for 72,400 rifles, an order worth a reported $72 million, the fresh order is reportedly for a similar number of rifles. SIG Sauer has confirmed that delivery of the first order has been completed and according to Indian media sources, the SIG Sauer rifles are destined for troops with the Indian Army’s Northern Command, which coordinates Indian Army operations in the border regions with Pakistan and China.

An Indian defense source has reportedly told Asian News International that “we are going to place an order for 72,000 more of these rifles under the financial powers granted to the armed forces.” This indicates that as tensions between India and China continue, the Indian Army has moved to streamline the procurement of much needed small arms like the SIG Sauer 716i outside of the Indian government’s ‘Made In India’ initiative which is guiding the negotiation and procurement of India’s AK-203, set to be built by a joint concern – Indo-Russia Rifles in Amethi, India.

The first batch of SIG Sauer rifles purchased by India was acquired under a ‘fast-track procurement’ (FTP) program. The latest order will also be made under a similar FTP. SIG Sauer could not yet comment on the exact configuration of the Indian 716i but noted that while they are very similar to the commercial 716i Tread they are capable of fully automatic fire and have an additional 6 o’clock Picatinny rail on the handguard to meet Indian requirements. An MLOK bayonet mount is also rumoured to have been procured for the rifles, although not seen in any of the images released by the Indian Army.

SIG Sauer confirmed that the Indian Army has procured the 7.62x51mm direct impingement 716i Tread, not the short-stroke piston-driven SIG716 G2. They also noted that the Indian Army carried out extensive trials of the 716i and its competitors with testing continuing after selection.

The news of SIG Sauer’s second contract award comes as we reported last week that the Indian Army was moving to purchase a large package of various weapons, equipment and ammunition (said to include FN SCARs, M2 Brownings and NVGs) for India’s elite Para (Special Forces) unit. The procurement of this package is also said to be organised under a ‘fast-track procurement’ (FTP) program.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-army-orders-more-716i-rifles-from-sig-sauer/

 

[ALPHA126383]

well seeing as how SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416, i think i would believe them rather than some random marine.
ak test
Ar15 test.
as you will see the ar is much more reliable in mud and sand, due to its closed system.
the US military isnt stupid to continue to rely on the ar15 for this long. A recent survey on the US army concluded more than 90% of the soldiers were satisfied with their weapon.
The only thing good about the ak is it runs without any maintenance.

SOCOM uses a lot of weapons including HK 416 variants.

The JSOC elements also use HK 416.

AR DI platforms are improving and so are piston operated systems<getting lighter and less recoil> but there is a need for more reliable gas piston variants in diff situations.

This guy doing a test isn't with a Russian AK <best in market>, the Ak may have malfunctioned because of barrel, poor maintenance or even been tweaked to fail.There are hundreds of videos where AR DI rifles have stoppages for N number of reasons and an AK shoots straight.

AR has closed system and the tolerances are the reason why it has stoppages compared to loose AK system.More space for the action to happen in AK. If the dust cover is open and dirt gets in it will eventually mess up the system and cause a stoppage. Caracal 816 is AR gas piston for sand and dust of Arab lands to be more reliable.

US ARMY believes in:
Tradition>What they have in inventory>Price >Operator needs .......

in that order.

They have way too many ARs to abandon going for a complete change except in small units of Tier 1 operators or USMC. Plus DI AR have served them well and are lighter.But the future is piston driven ARs and as soon as they see a rifle being equally lighter and accurate and ofcourse cheaper, they would change to more reliable gas piston ARs.

All tier 1 groups in Europe are beginning to field piston ARs because they understand the correct order.

Reliability,Durability,Accurate,Affordable.

Guess what the smart thing was done by the Poles who had 5.56 AK, the Archer, after the integration with NATO.Something that shoots accurate like AR and brings the reliability of AK platforms.

DI ARs aren't bad, just that in a SHTF situation that random marine wouldn't trust it.The USMC and the French Army, Norwegian SF etc are adopting piston ARs.

DI's work fine but pistons are way more reliable anyday.

And don't believe those surveys they do of satisfaction with M4 carbines...It would be like doing a satisfaction survey with INSAS among Indian soldiers if done without bias by the decision makers.

 

[Gessler]

Why are people in this thread thinking that just because GP is considered superior as a general rule, DI must be utter crap? It's not - DI is a superbly reliable system if designed & built by a reputed manufacturer like SIG. It's just that Piston is more preferred by forces that regularly suppress their weapons (DI platforms combined with short barrels & gas systems are generally tougher to suppress. Again, generally. Not as a rule, for example MK18 can be suppressed just fine).

well seeing as how SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416, i think i would believe them rather than some random marine.

"SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416"

They've done no such thing.

The HK416 remains the go-to carbine for vast majority of JSOC Tier-1 units, as well as their NATO & Australian counterparts.

If talking about the entirety of SOCOM (to include Rangers etc.) then those forces never really adopted HK416 in the first place anyway so there's no question of 'ditching them' now. The bulk of Rangers prefer to use their service-issue M4A1 with SOPMOD Block-II kit, while a small number use a few SCARs and a few DD Mk18s. The HK416 is an uber-expensive carbine even compared to the cost of service-issue M4+SOPMOD kit.

 

[Lonewarrior]

DI platforms combined with short barrels & gas systems are generally tougher to suppress.

If I'm not wrong, then this problem with DIs can be by solved by simply replacing the gas block with an adjustable one. Typically a 50-75 buck non-invasive modification.
Moreover a DI with adjustable gas system can prove slightly superior to similar gas pistons while being suppressed.

 

[ManhattanProject]

SOCOM uses a lot of weapons including HK 416 variants.

The JSOC elements also use HK 416.

AR DI platforms are improving and so are piston operated systems<getting lighter and less recoil> but there is a need for more reliable gas piston variants in diff situations.

This guy doing a test isn't with a Russian AK <best in market>, the Ak may have malfunctioned because of barrel, poor maintenance or even been tweaked to fail.There are hundreds of videos where AR DI rifles have stoppages for N number of reasons and an AK shoots straight.

AR has closed system and the tolerances are the reason why it has stoppages compared to loose AK system.More space for the action to happen in AK. If the dust cover is open and dirt gets in it will eventually mess up the system and cause a stoppage. Caracal 816 is AR gas piston for sand and dust of Arab lands to be more reliable.

US ARMY believes in:
Tradition>What they have in inventory>Price >Operator needs .......

in that order.

They have way too many ARs to abandon going for a complete change except in small units of Tier 1 operators or USMC. Plus DI AR have served them well and are lighter.But the future is piston driven ARs and as soon as they see a rifle being equally lighter and accurate and ofcourse cheaper, they would change to more reliable gas piston ARs.

All tier 1 groups in Europe are beginning to field piston ARs because they understand the correct order.

Reliability,Durability,Accurate,Affordable.

Guess what the smart thing was done by the Poles who had 5.56 AK, the Archer, after the integration with NATO.Something that shoots accurate like AR and brings the reliability of AK platforms.

DI ARs aren't bad, just that in a SHTF situation that random marine wouldn't trust it.The USMC and the French Army, Norwegian SF etc are adopting piston ARs.

DI's work fine but pistons are way more reliable anyday.

And don't believe those surveys they do of satisfaction with M4 carbines...It would be like doing a satisfaction survey with INSAS among Indian soldiers if done without bias by the decision makers.

Well considering the inrange guys are one of the most reputed and trusted guys in the gun industry your argument that they faked it is completely wrong..maybe go to their channel and look at their content on the ak.
test of the civilian hk416, now ypu would probably say the civilian one is completely different.

 

[Lonewarrior]

They have way too many ARs to abandon going for a complete change except in small units of Tier 1 operators or USMC.

Well not really.
I don't think anyone needs to "abandon" an AR to get a gas piston operated rifle.
There are many aftermarket kits which can make any Mil Spec AR a SS-GP by simply replacing the gas block, gas tube and bolt carrier (in some cases only the gas key is needed to be swapped).
Though not a fool proof solution as there will be slight glitches. But they can also be rectified by swapping the upper receiver and handguard.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Why are people in this thread thinking that just because GP is considered superior as a general rule, DI must be utter crap? It's not - DI is a superbly reliable system if designed & built by a reputed manufacturer like SIG. It's just that Piston is more preferred by forces that regularly suppress their weapons (DI platforms combined with short barrels & gas systems are generally tougher to suppress. Again, generally. Not as a rule, for example MK18 can be suppressed just fine).



"SOCOM has gone back to the DI guns and ditched the hk416"

They've done no such thing.

The HK416 remains the go-to carbine for vast majority of JSOC Tier-1 units, as well as their NATO & Australian counterparts.

If talking about the entirety of SOCOM (to include Rangers etc.) then those forces never really adopted HK416 in the first place anyway so there's no question of 'ditching them' now. The bulk of Rangers prefer to use their service-issue M4A1 with SOPMOD Block-II kit, while a small number use a few SCARs and a few DD Mk18s. The HK416 is an uber-expensive carbine even compared to the cost of service-issue M4+SOPMOD kit.

well the hk416 is a phenomenal rifle, but you see them less and less in the hands of special operators nowadays.

 

[Lonewarrior]

This guy doing a test isn't with a Russian AK <best in market>, the Ak may have malfunctioned because of barrel, poor maintenance or even been tweaked to fail.There are hundreds of videos where AR DI rifles have stoppages for N number of reasons and an AK shoots straight.

Hmm, quite possible.

Btw, is a video by Kalashnikov Concern one of those hundreds. Because if it is, then things are bit problematic.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Hmm, quite possible.

Btw, is a video by Kalashnikov Concern one of those hundreds. Because if it is, then things are bit problematic.

that ak in the video is made on a russian parts kit, so its as close to a russian ak as it gets. If you still have doubts they have tested factory made valmets and arsenal rifles as well.

edit- it was a romanian ak not russian

 

[Lonewarrior]

that ak in the video is made on a russian parts kit, so its as close to a russian ak as it gets. If you still have doubts they have tested factory made valmets and arsenal rifles as well.

I think you misunderstood my message.

 

[Lonewarrior]

@ManhattanProject enjoy this one gem of a video.

 

[ManhattanProject]

@ManhattanProject enjoy this one gem of a video.

Seen it already dude, i even commented above about the ak performing better in arctic conditions.
You might also consider the video you posted has been made by Kalashnikov Concern. i am not saying the ak is a bad rifle, i love aks what i am just saying that ar15s are better.