Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Lonewarrior]

Is there any plan to buy optics for all these rifles? .308 needs a sturdy one and all I can think of costs as much as the rifle.

Most probably yes. Though I'm pretty sure it won't be for all 1.4 lakh, only a small number will be equipped.

SIG's own TANGO4 1-4x24 goes for 550 bucks, and is many a times considered "average" in US markets. So it will be a heavy investment.

But again you can't predict anything about Indian defence procurements coz everything is dictated by kickbacks.
(Beretta MX4 and Victrix Scorpio voices intensify...)

 

[ALPHA126383]

Nice Review of SIG 716i Tread. I expect the version IA is getting is similar to this one.

TFB REVIEW: New Battle Rifle - SIG Sauer TREAD 716i AR-10

TFB REVIEW: New Battle Rifle - SIG Sauer TREAD 716i AR-10 - Should I make this triangle into a square and add the SIG Sauer TREAD 716i battle rifle chambered in .308 Winchester?

www.thefirearmblog.com

View attachment 52912

Gladly, the reviewer has found issue with the trigger system only in the whole analysis.



His Final Words:



From the review it appears, that the SIG offered an affordable AR based solution in .308 cal US civilian market which is earlier dominated by $2000 & above AR a piece.

I wish we would able to see such all-aspect review for SSS ARs & DMRs in future.

I have my doubts about the Sig rifles we just acquired.The gas piston system to keep out the dust and carbon contamination over prolonged use like in regular DMR role ON LOC has been exchanged for slightly more accuracy with the direct impingement system<and cheaper price tag>. These reviews are for US commercial market where prolonged use means weekend range time without cleaning,nothing compared to our Jawans shooting thousands of rounds in escalations on the LOC. I thought the Army wanted a hadcore battle rifle with less cleaning like the G2 Patrol variant. Just saying you know...anyway I am sure Army must have done their homework.

 

[ALPHA126383]

DI guns have better accuracy and lower weight. The main concern was carrier group misalignment due to external piston arrangement, high recoil during automatic fire and cost concerns.The army wanted a 7.62x51mm having moderate recoil during automatic fire.

This rifle has a mid length gas system to burn more propellant before it enters chamber and bolt carrier moves slower to preserve life. The gun barrel is made of steel which is softer and thus more flexible which allows for harmonics of bullet. This makes gun more accurate.

The barrel is coated with nitride which is excellent for anti corrosion effect. The free floating rail allows for more accuracy in conjunction with the microlight gas block.

Pakis after testing SSP AR 10 decided to make DI AR 10 as next battle rifle because other than increased reliability, SSP doesn't add to improved environmental performance unlike the SCAR-H or Galil ACE or AKM.

https://quwa.org/2019/10/31/pakistan-ordnance-factories-reveals-new-pk18-and-pk21-assault-rifles/



http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

Conclusion : AR 10 style Sig 716I was selected for accurate and low recoil 7.62x51 automatic fire.

Maybe the cheaper price tag also as a factor

 

[Lonewarrior]

I have my doubts about the Sig rifles we just acquired.The gas piston system to keep out the dust and carbon contamination over prolonged use like in regular DMR role ON LOC has been exchanged for slightly more accuracy with the direct impingement system<and cheaper price tag>. These reviews are for US commercial market where prolonged use means weekend range time without cleaning,nothing compared to our Jawans shooting thousands of rounds in escalations on the LOC. I thought the Army wanted a hadcore battle rifle with less cleaning like the G2 Patrol variant. ust saying you know...anyway I am sure Army must have done their homework.

Hmm, it all depends on the source of your information. Is that from first hand experience or from what companies and armchair experts told you.

Common sense says, any part exposed to unburned powder will get fouled after a certain number of rounds. In case of gas impingement it would be the bolt and bolt carrier; and in case of piston operated, the piston head and gas block.

I don't think as of now there has been a single incident where (1) a military AR-15 has jammed in middle of a firefight (2) due to fouling of bolt, (3) despite being maintained according to the said military's doctrine.

Moreover militaries don't do "my rifle seems pretty gunked up, maybe I should clean it now" cleaning. Guns are cleaned either on fixed intervals or after every range session/engagement.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Maybe the cheaper price tag also as a factor

As of now it's just a rumour, but it seems SIG 716i was custom made according to our GSQR.

 

[ALPHA126383]

I mean having same camouflage on uniform, helmets and vests. You can see soldiers with different camo on their helmet, uniform and vests which doesn't match with each other.

In my humble opinion Army needs a big drive to standardize whatever diff camo and accesories are being used. A standard headgear with no mismatching camo patterns is the need of the hour.Some units in Operations look like a rag tag bunch of militia , I mean today in the information warfare its more important to project capabilities than just have them.These are small things that help make the bigger narrative, esp when u have cameras everywhere.

 

[ARVION]

In my humble opinion Army needs a big drive to standardize whatever diff camo and accesories are being used. A standard headgear with no mismatching camo patterns is the need of the hour.Some units in Operations look like a rag tag bunch of militia , I mean today in the information warfare its more important to project capabilities than just have them.These are small things that help make the bigger narrative, esp when u have cameras everywhere.

Actually the cameo is standardized for different environments, but the problem's happen when say you are transferred from bengal to ladakh but not issued the cameo designated for ladakh like environment, due to budgetary and logistic of issuing cameo for every environment are different in shade pattern and even size's on a standard base pattern's.when you are transferred is a both a problem and a nightmare's.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Hmm, it all depends on the source of your information. Is that from first hand experience or from what companies and armchair experts told you.

Common sense says, any part exposed to unburned powder will get fouled after a certain number of rounds. In case of gas impingement it would be the bolt and bolt carrier; and in case of piston operated, the piston head and gas block.

I don't think as of now there has been a single incident where (1) a military AR-15 has jammed in middle of a firefight (2) due to fouling of bolt, (3) despite being maintained according to the said military's doctrine.

Moreover militaries don't do "my rifle seems pretty gunked up, maybe I should clean it now" cleaning. Guns are cleaned either on fixed intervals or after every range session/engagement.

You have a point, but seeing The Marines go for M 27, the French Army doing away with Famas and going for HK 416 , the PLA going for QBZ 191 , all gas piston operated systems to keep the rifle going in war without having to worry about cleaning it regularly like the DI systems,I was bound to think the rationale behind the Sig 716i ,which I think is trading lesser carbon accumulation in a gassed system for better accuracy <less recoil> and price.

The whole idea of a modern battlerifle is also to factor the lack of time for cleaning the rifle in a battle.Not all conglicts will be COIN ops.Carbon buildup eventually will lead to more jams if not cleaned.I am sure the Army knows what they ordered.

 

[Lonewarrior]

In my humble opinion Army needs a big drive to standardize whatever diff camo and accesories are being used. A standard headgear with no mismatching camo patterns is the need of the hour.Some units in Operations look like a rag tag bunch of militia , I mean today in the information warfare its more important to project capabilities than just have them.These are small things that help make the bigger narrative, esp when u have cameras everywhere.

If I'm not wrong then the only place where this happens is in Kashmir, during CI/CT Ops. You can easily find soldiers with sports shoes - tracksuit to properly camouflaged ones.

But do you really think camouflage is something important when companies of soldiers are joking and laughing while reloading a CGRL to take out a whole house with 2-3 malnourished terrorists?

 

[ALPHA126383]

Actually the cameo is standardized for different environments, but the problem's happen when say you are transferred from bengal to ladakh but not issued the cameo designated for ladakh like environment, due to budgetary and logistic of issuing cameo for every environment are different in shade pattern and even size's on a standard base pattern's.when you are transferred is a both a problem and a nightmare's.

I mean even if they put on the same camo in diff environment and stand out like a sore thumb, atleast the helmet camo should match the overall BDU , its called 'Uniform' for a reason, right...

 

[ARVION]

I mean even if they put on the same camo in diff environment and stand out like a sore thumb, atleast the helmet camo should match the overall BDU , its called 'Uniform' for a reason, right...

Well I always thought the isreali menzerfiet is a good option for head gear covering as it's diminishe's the shape of body from head, dont knew why only few countries issues them.

 

[ALPHA126383]

If I'm not wrong then the only place where this happens is in Kashmir, during CI/CT Ops. You can easily find soldiers with sports shoes - tracksuit to properly camouflaged ones.

But do you really think camouflage is something important when companies of soldiers are joking and laughing while reloading a CGRL to take out a whole house with 2-3 malnourished terrorists?

Yes,, I think it's important. They can hunt down those terrorists in their shorts and T shirts for all I care as long as they are comfortable , but there is a need for standardization, which anyway in any operational area would be overlooked to some extent.But 90% of the time they are planning, communicating, moving,training,cooperating with civil agencies, and today in the information age even playing their part in the hybrid warfare <with cameras around>, in which perceptions and narrations matter a lot.

There could be other paraphernalia used to customize the standard camo patterns but a standard and uniform is important.

You are spot on when u say it doesnt matter as long as they are comfortable and blowing the bad guys to smithereens,but for the war of perceptions to defeat the enemy whose entire war history is based only on managing perceptions even if they have tasted defeat evertime, standardization is the way to go just like it has been done in squad level and individual weapons to a great extent.

After Galwan, we should be not just be focussing on COIN ops, there might not be a malnourished army we might face next time.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Well I always thought the isreali menzerfiet is a good option for head gear covering as it's diminishe's the shape of body from head, dont knew why only few countries issues them.

Anything the Army deems fit as per their requierements as long as they look professional esp when they are our heroes.HEROES NEED TO LOOK GOOD.

 

[Lonewarrior]

You have a point, but seeing The Marines go for M 27, the French Army doing away with Famas and going for HK 416 , the PLA going for QBZ 191 , all gas piston operated systems to keep the rifle going in war without having to worry about cleaning it regularly like the DI systems,I was bound to think the rationale behind the Sig 716i ,which I think is trading lesser carbon accumulation in a gassed system for better accuracy <less recoil> and price.

The whole idea of a modern battlerifle is also to factor the lack of time for cleaning the rifle in a battle.Not all conglicts will be COIN ops.Carbon buildup eventually will lead to more jams if not cleaned.I am sure the Army knows what they ordered.

Indeed some countries are moving from DIs to GPs. But all the examples you gave are slightly inaccurate.

1. Selection of M27 is a bit controversial event. And also it's supposed to be an Infantry Automatic Rifle. After prolonged firing (which will rarely happen in an assault rifle) DIs tend to get really hot in critical areas, making them unsuitable for replacing something like a SAW.

2. FAMAS was always a troubled child. Both FAMAS and AA-52 have a bad reputation for their lever delayed blowback system. This change was bound to happen.

3. China inducted QBZ191 because everyone knows that bullpups suck as an infantry rifle. Especially when it's a Chinese bullpup.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Yes,, I think it's important. They can hunt down those terrorists in their shorts and T shirts for all I care as long as they are comfortable , but there is a need for standardization, which anyway in any operational area would be overlooked to some extent.But 90% of the time they are planning, communicating, moving,training,cooperating with civil agencies, and today in the information age even playing their part in the hybrid warfare <with cameras around>, in which perceptions and narrations matter a lot.

There could be other paraphernalia used to customize the standard camo patterns but a standard and uniform is important.

You are spot on when u say it doesnt matter as long as they are comfortable and blowing the bad guys to smithereens,but for the war of perceptions to defeat the enemy whose entire war history is based only on managing perceptions even if they have tasted defeat evertime, standardization is the way to go just like it has been done in squad level and individual weapons to a great extent.

After Galwan, we should be not just be focussing on COIN ops, there might not be a malnourished army we might face next time.

Naaaah, we never gave a single f*ck to perceptions and narrations nor will in near future. That's what ISPR is supposed to do.

 

[Gessler]

As of now it's just a rumour, but it seems SIG 716i was custom made according to our GSQR.

"custom made according to our GSQR"

If that was the case, then we have to assume that all the other competitors in the tender also offered only DI versions. I'm not able to dig up the link now but I have on good authority that IWI ACE 52 was the L-2 bidder in the commercial tender. ACE, like the older Galil and the AK its based on, is a long-stroke gas piston design. If we believe the DI on SIG716 was done specifically to meet IA GSQR then we'd have to assume IWI also had come up with a DI system for ACE 52.

However we haven't seen any DI version offering of ACE lineup on the market, which if we assume IWI already designed, built & tested as part of IA trials, then decided not to commercialize for some inexplicable reason.

If on the other hand we assume only SIG met IA's GSQR by coming up with DI and others didn't, then IWI & L-3 (I don't recall which it was, perhaps CAR-817) would have been disqualified at technical stage itself, would never have gotten till commercial bid stage and because of that the tender would be declared single-vendor situation and cancelled as per rules of our own DPP.

All things considered, I have to say, it appears to me that coming up with DI for 716 was purely SIG's own idea. IA probably didn't specify any particular type of gas system so as not to leave any potential bidder out. SIG saw an opportunity in offering a system that's significantly cheaper than GP, and took it.

 

[Lonewarrior]

"custom made according to our GSQR"

If that was the case, then we have to assume that all the other competitors in the tender also offered only DI versions. I'm not able to dig up the link now but I have on good authority that IWI ACE 52 was the L-2 bidder in the commercial tender. ACE, like the older Galil and the AK its based on, is a long-stroke gas piston design. If we believe the DI on SIG716 was done specifically to meet IA GSQR then we'd have to assume IWI also had come up with a DI system for ACE 52.

However we haven't seen any DI version offering of ACE lineup on the market, which if we assume IWI already designed, built & tested as part of IA trials, then decided not to commercialize for some inexplicable reason.

If on the other hand we assume only SIG met IA's GSQR by coming up with DI and others didn't, then IWI & L-3 (I don't recall which it was, perhaps CAR-817) would have been disqualified at technical stage itself, would never have gotten till commercial bid stage and because of that the tender would be declared single-vendor situation and cancelled as per rules of our own DPP.

All things considered, I have to say, it appears to me that coming up with DI for 716 was purely SIG's own idea. IA probably didn't specify any particular type of gas system so as not to leave any potential bidder out. SIG saw an opportunity in offering a system that's significantly cheaper than GP, and took it.

Yaa, it makes sense.
May be there was nothing regarding operating mechanism in GSQR. That's why a long stroke, a short stroke and a DI were competing.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Indeed some countries are moving from DIs to GPs. But all the examples you gave are slightly inaccurate.

1. Selection of M27 is a bit controversial event. And also it's supposed to be an Infantry Automatic Rifle. After prolonged firing (which will rarely happen in an assault rifle) DIs tend to get really hot in critical areas, making them unsuitable for replacing something like a SAW.

2. FAMAS was always a troubled child. Both FAMAS and AA-52 have a bad reputation for their lever delayed blowback system. This change was bound to happen.

3. China inducted QBZ191 because everyone knows that bullpups suck as an infantry rifle. Especially when it's a Chinese bullpup.

I agree with your analysis.

1. There is a talk of M27 even taking on the SAW role and completely doing away with one heavy marine weapon to suppress enemy.Bunch of heavy duty rifle barrels that can take on targets with less heating and higher accuracy compared to one heavy overheating machinegun more prone to jams in adverse conditions. The thing is they have thought through it<Every Marine a Rifleman> and went for M27. Marines are the pioneers in a sense getting equipment before regular US army.Something to take note of when it comes to M27.Maybe they will change to 6.8mm in the future, who knows...maybe go the .300 AAC Blackout way, but 'gas pistons' is what the writing on the wall says as of now.

2.The fact that French Army went for gas piston makes one reflect on their recent campaigns in African sands fighting Al Shabab. Famas had to go anyway.Question is what did the French learn in Africa to have gone for a costly gas piston HK 416....

3.Chinese don't wanna be seen behind times when it comes to weaponry.Its part of their stand against US to be seen equally well equipped. I am sure an average Joe in PLA wasn't happy either with the bang happening right next to his cheeks. But its a trend for right or for wrong ,time will tell ,but something worth taking note of, esp when we are finally procuring long awaited modern rifles.

I just hope CAR 816 is a gas piston purchase.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Naaaah, we never gave a single f*ck to perceptions and narrations nor will in near future. That's what ISPR is supposed to do.

Reason why we lost the battle of perceptions even after shooting down the Paki F 16.
Hybrid warfare is here to stay and our breed of online keyboard warriors has been doing it long enough to be able to tell the Armed Forces to pull up its socks on this one. ISPR is supposed to do that and does a better job of it than us.

 

[Wisemarko]

Instead of buying 72000 more rifles first buy 72000 ACOG or MeproX4 sights for first purchase. It will make the investment worth the price. I can’t bear to see SIG rifle without appropriate optic. Might as well use FN-FAL