Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Wisemarko]

I like SIGs, they are great: you could have forced them to open an assembly line in India with such a large order.

Also, I do not see any order for scopes. It is an absolute must in today’s world. Ideal scope would be ACOG but that costs as much as the rifle. None of the rifles ordered by India are DMR version, so using variable scopes doesn’t make much sense.

 

[Hari Sud]

For information only, what price the Russians are quoting for their 203 assembly in India. If it is pricey then switch the whole order to Sig Sauer and they will be delighted to open a factory in India, later Make these for export elsewhere.

 

[Akula]

I know it's an old picture but which rifle is this in the picture?
It's a 7.62x51 NATO one with a TONBO/UWS Arjun Thermal Sight kinda looks like a SIG 716View attachment 52936

Colt CM901

 

[operatorgrumby]

Or may be they were the TONBO-UWS proprietary UPR/UCR with the Arjun TI sight being offered to Indian Army during the RFI which SIG SAUER won

Maybe.....maybe i'm not totally a professional here, so i can be wrong here

 

[IndianHawk]

If possible, cancel the whole plan of equipping army with AK-203 as the standard issue firearm. Rather explore SSS P-72 if it can compete along the AKs. Induction of SIGs could provide buffer for a couple of years till we select a local candidate with its own IPRs for AR production .

The whole problem is that under Modi, Babus get cold feet while dealing with private firms via open tender process in fear of corruption allegations. That's the precise reason why K-C was chosen as a part of G-to-G deal between India & Russia. Sadly, this fear is compelling Babus to make decisions which is devoid of any long term vision for promotion of local defense industry.

Don't think it's just mod babaus. After insas struggle army wants something robust and proven in the hand of soldiers. Something which works everywhere in every condition without jamming .

That's why ak203 was selected.

SSS or any other Private defense will have to prove their weaponry over the years to change army's mind now. They should target Paramilitary and police forces first and build on solid positive experience to enthuse the army in the next phase.

Also Russian will ultimately bring down the price of ak203 as factory is already built and all they have to do now is reap profit. They could do with bit less profit.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Difficult...
MoD Babus would have chosen some Ordinance factory and sig saur would have met INSAS fate..

Watch down the AK 203 made in India..

Any idea how much further would a 7.62 × 51 mm bullet fired from Sig sauer travel with the necessary accuracy, as compared to 7.62 x 39 mm bullet fired from AK, in ladakh's rarefied atmosphere ?

 

[Wisemarko]

Any idea how much further would a 7.62 × 51 mm bullet fired from Sig sauer travel with the necessary accuracy, as compared to 7.62 x 39 mm bullet fired from AK, in ladakh's rarefied atmosphere ?

Huge difference: .308 maintains supersonic speed up-to 1000 yards while AK round will be subsonic at 500. That means accuracy becomes significantly less. You can take a deeper dive on this topic with learning about ballistic coefficient, terminal velocity, different bullet weights, muzzle velocity etc.
But in nutshell, there is not comparison between these two rounds beyond 500 yard mark. In real world that distance is 350-400 yards with standard issue ammunition.
More apt comparison would be between Soviet 7.62x54 and NATO 7.62x51

 

[operatorgrumby]

Huge difference: .308 maintains supersonic speed up-to 1000 yards while AK round will be subsonic at 500. That means accuracy becomes significantly less. You can take a deeper dive on this topic with learning about ballistic coefficient, terminal velocity, different bullet weights, muzzle velocity etc.
But in nutshell, there is not comparison between these two rounds beyond 500 yard mark. In real world that distance is 350-400 yards with standard issue ammunition.
More apt comparison would be between Soviet 7.62x54 and NATO 7.62x51

Beside that 7.62 NATO also packs a huge punch also ( ask any true believer ).
Although 7.62x39R is quite powerful itself, it will be like some other guy while the .308 will be the mighty Johnny sins.

 

[piKacHHu]

Don't think it's just mod babaus. After insas struggle army wants something robust and proven in the hand of soldiers. Something which works everywhere in every condition without jamming .

That's why ak203 was selected.

SSS or any other Private defense will have to prove their weaponry over the years to change army's mind now. They should target Paramilitary and police forces first and build on solid positive experience to enthuse the army in the next phase.

Also Russian will ultimately bring down the price of ak203 as factory is already built and all they have to do now is reap profit. They could do with bit less profit.

Agree. The SSS has to prove itself before talking big but at the same time, the Govt could also follow hand-holding approach for these local enterprises. It seems "Vocal for Local" is meant for sarkari OFB and DPSUs only as we are seeing HAL making forays into LUH deal for Navy which is somewhat in contradiction with DPP 2016. At one place you want to develop MIC with active involvement of private sector on the other hand you don't want to give them orders.

For AK 203, I would like to learn how it is better than the local AK clones like TAR and Ghatak? If not significant, we are draining money to K-C by paying royalty just for their brand name. One more assumption in its support could be that this will help in export markets for which I have serious reservations. First you are choosing an already downgraded product from K-C (not it's current top-of-the-line AK 12 / AK 15) then you are expecting it to export after 4-5 years once your domestic orders get fulfilled. Since MHA is a captive customer of OFB, they won't be needing more AK 203s.
I simply don't understand how this arrangement going to work in long term?

Just like it was rumored that the HAL was adding margins on off-the-shelf imported items for Mk1A, same may be the case with OFB also with it's high man-hour costs, we can't blame Russians alone for that.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Any idea how much further would a 7.62 × 51 mm bullet fired from Sig sauer travel with the necessary accuracy, as compared to 7.62 x 39 mm bullet fired from AK, in ladakh's rarefied atmosphere ?

In the simplest way possible.

1. AK rounds (say M43) are a real pain in the butt when you stretch the engagement range. The drop and drift after a short distance is very significant. This is the only factor which forced the Russians to develop 5.46x39mm, their standard issue cartridge.
Only place where it shines is CQC and CI/CT operations. So much that even US adapted a similar cartridge in the form of .300 Blackout.

2. As of now, 7.62x51mm (or 54R) is the defacto Designated Marksman Rifle calibre all over the world. With engagement range of 800-1000m.

 

[another_armchair]

If you find time, do check out 9 hole reviews. No elaborate theory on bullet trajectory etc but a simple, practical demonstration for the layman.

9-Hole Reviews

We don't cheat your accuracy reviews with 3 to 5 round groups. _________________________________________ Practical Accuracy standards: - Service Rifle- 500 y...

www.youtube.com

 

[IndianHawk]

Agree. The SSS has to prove itself before talking big but at the same time, the Govt could also follow hand-holding approach for these local enterprises. It seems "Vocal for Local" is meant for sarkari OFB and DPSUs only as we are seeing HAL making forays into LUH deal for Navy which is somewhat in contradiction with DPP 2016. At one place you want to develop MIC with active involvement of private sector on the other hand you don't want to give them orders.

For AK 203, I would like to learn how it is better than the local AK clones like TAR and Ghatak? If not significant, we are draining money to K-C by paying royalty just for their brand name. One more assumption in its support could be that this will help in export markets for which I have serious reservations. First you are choosing an already downgraded product from K-C (not it's current top-of-the-line AK 12 / AK 15) then you are expecting it to export after 4-5 years once your domestic orders get fulfilled. Since MHA is a captive customer of OFB, they won't be needing more AK 203s.
I simply don't understand how this arrangement going to work in long term?

Just like it was rumored that the HAL was adding margins on off-the-shelf imported items for Mk1A, same may be the case with OFB also with it's high man-hour costs, we can't blame Russians alone for that.

203 might not be any better but it's proven. It works. Everywhere Everytime. Even price wise it shouldn't cost much more than local clones once final price is settled.

Export will work because of bulk production economy of scale. Which will make it very attractive for low budget armies compared to ak12 /15 or unproven unknown Chinese clones. But that is secondary consideration.

If army is not happy with local AK clones than we are missing something in whole picture.

 

[piKacHHu]

If you find time, do check out 9 hole reviews. No elaborate theory on bullet trajectory etc but a simple, practical demonstration for the layman.

9-Hole Reviews

We don't cheat your accuracy reviews with 3 to 5 round groups. _________________________________________ Practical Accuracy standards: - Service Rifle- 500 y...

www.youtube.com

Superlike !! I was about to post the video of this channel for Type 56 (Chinese AK) where it performed pretty well at even 500 yards with Iron Sights. Sadly, the Tavor in the same set-up performed poorly. Henry Chan regards 7.62x39 very high based on the performance of various AK types in his review tests.

For reference;

 

[Bhadra]

Guys .. you all are unnecessarily beating around the bush and missing Forest for woods ...

Indian Army has to primarily equip itself for envisaged roles out of which conventional military operations are primary role and coin operations is the ongoing secondary role.

All will agree that the primary task of a front line soldier, that is infantry soldier is to kill the enemy with his weapons. The battlefield environment has considerably changed in that the soldiers are now protected by modern BPJ and hamlets.. The utility of soft skinned vehicle has also enhanced in the battlefield.

So infantry soldier requires a weapon which can engage the enemy at four hundred or five hundred meters (forward edge of minefield or from home edge of minefield in attack) and has sufficient punch to penetrate a BPJ. hamlet and soft skinned vehicles at 400 = 500 meters. Only 7.62 X 51 caliber is capable of doing that. Sig Saur meets that criteria as it is also capable of automatic fire in CQB battle.

Other infantry soldiers who are engaged with crew served weapons will fire on enemy using personal weapons when he is very near say about 100 -150 meters. Here 5.56 X 45 caliber ammunition is capable of penetrating a BPJ and helmet due to its sheer high velocity.

Hence in conventional operations the two calibers meet the requirement of all Infantry soldiers at required ranges.

All other Army men, be it a tank-man, artilleryman. drivers or signalers. will engage the enemy maximum when he is 100-150 meters away and rarely a distance more than that. Their personal weapon is basically meant for self protection. AK 203 and Caracal carbines suits that task very well.

In CI / CT operations which primarily is focused in CQB, the soldier require a heavier punch with good penetration. heavy volume of fire and very high reliability. AK 203 meets all those requirements very well. Hence all soldier there will be equipped with AF 203 of 7.62 X 39 caliber.

So that is what the reasoning is. And that is what the scheme of things appear.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Guys .. you all are unnecessarily beating around the bush and missing Forest for woods ...

Indian Army has to primarily equip itself for envisaged roles out of which conventional military operations are primary role and coin operations is the ongoing secondary role.

All will agree that the primary task of a front line soldier, that is infantry soldier is ti kill the enemy with his weapons. The battlefield environment has considerably changed in that the soldiers are now protected y modern BPJ and hamlets.. The utility of soft skinned vehicle has also enhanced in the battlefield.

So infantry soldier requires a weapon which can engage the enemy at four hundred or five hundred meters (forward edge of minefield or from home edge of minefield in attack) and has sufficient punch to penetrate a BPJ. hamlet and soft skinned vehicles at 400 = 500 meters. Only 7.62 X 51 caliber is capable of doing that. Sig Saur meets that criteria as it is also capable of automatic fire in CQB battle.

Other infantry soldiers who are engaged with crew served weapons will fire on enemy using personal weapons when he is very near say about 100 -150 meters. Here 5.56 X 45 caliber ammunition is capable of penetrating a BPJ and helmet due to its sheer high velocity.

Hence in conventional operations the two caliers meet the requirement of all Infantry soldiers.

All other Army men, be it a tank-man, artilleryman. drivers or signalers. will enegage the enmey maximum when he is 100-150 meters away and rarely a distance more than that. Their personal weapon is basically meant for self protection. AK 203 and Caracal carbines suits that task very well.

In CI / CT operations which primarily is focused in CQB, the soldier require a heavier punch with good penetration. heavy volume of fire and very high reliability. AK 203 meets all those requirements very well. Hence all soldier there will be equipped with AF 203 of 7.62 X 39 caliber.

So that is what the reasoning is. And that is what the scheme of things appear.

Summing up everything.

1. First batch of SIG 716i to counter Paki G3s on Western Front.
Second batch to provide overmatch on Eastern Front.

2. 5.56x45mm carbine, because it was bit of an irony to field ABMs and Sterling SMGs at the same time. Most countries now field carbines in place of SMGs.
These will go to secondary personnel, like artillery crew, sappers, driver. Basically everyone who will need a decent weapon, but the chances of firing it is pretty low.

3. .338 Lapua Magnum bolt actions, because we shifted from Soviet doctrine of DMRs to Western norm of sniper-spotter. This was necessary as we were sitting ducks for Paki Arctic Warfares.

4. AK-103M and 7.62x39mm is what I'm still unable to comprehend. As I said it's only good for CI/CT Ops, so arming a whole bunch of 7 lakh infantry for anti-terror ops saying they are "non-frontline" troops sounds bit absurd.
Troops who really needed an AK are already having them; the RRs.
Though a 6mm calibre is a far dream for us, in my opinion a 62gr rifle would have been a better choice.

Believe me or not, this whole deal sounds like a BJ to the Russians. Coz if 7.62x39mm was the priority, we already had Ghataks and TARs. Pretty much similar to what we're getting in the name of AK-203.

 

[another_armchair]

Summing up everything.

1. First batch of SIG 716i to counter Paki G3s on Western Front.
Second batch to provide overmatch on Eastern Front.

2. 5.56x45mm carbine, because it was bit of an irony to field ABMs and Sterling SMGs at the same time. Most countries now field carbines in place of SMGs.
These will go to secondary personnel, like artillery crew, sappers, driver. Basically everyone who will need a decent weapon, but the chances of firing it is pretty low.

3. .338 Lapua Magnum bolt actions, because we shifted from Soviet doctrine of DMRs to Western norm of sniper-spotter. This was necessary as we were sitting ducks for Paki Arctic Warfares.

4. AK-103M and 7.62x39mm is what I'm still unable to comprehend. As I said it's only good for CI/CT Ops, so arming a whole bunch of 7 lakh infantry for anti-terror ops saying they are "non-frontline" troops sounds bit absurd.
Troops who really needed an AK are already having them; the RRs.
Though a 6mm calibre is a far dream for us, in my opinion a 62gr rifle would have been a better choice.

Believe me or not, this whole deal sounds like a BJ to the Russians. Coz if 7.62x39mm was the priority, we already had Ghataks and TARs. Pretty much similar to what we're getting in the name of AK-203.

It was pure politics - From picking the Russian weapon, to choosing the location (Amethi) to announcing a joint venture with OFB.
Objective had nothing to do with equipping forces with the right weapon but to show 'development' in their rival's constituency besides trying to push UP into the Mil-Ind ecosystem apart from tomtoming MII and creating jobs.
I pray it never takes off.

 

[operatorgrumby]

Summing up everything.

1. First batch of SIG 716i to counter Paki G3s on Western Front.
Second batch to provide overmatch on Eastern Front.

2. 5.56x45mm carbine, because it was bit of an irony to field ABMs and Sterling SMGs at the same time. Most countries now field carbines in place of SMGs.
These will go to secondary personnel, like artillery crew, sappers, driver. Basically everyone who will need a decent weapon, but the chances of firing it is pretty low.

3. .338 Lapua Magnum bolt actions, because we shifted from Soviet doctrine of DMRs to Western norm of sniper-spotter. This was necessary as we were sitting ducks for Paki Arctic Warfares.

4. AK-103M and 7.62x39mm is what I'm still unable to comprehend. As I said it's only good for CI/CT Ops, so arming a whole bunch of 7 lakh infantry for anti-terror ops saying they are "non-frontline" troops sounds bit absurd.
Troops who really needed an AK are already having them; the RRs.
Though a 6mm calibre is a far dream for us, in my opinion a 62gr rifle would have been a better choice.

Believe me or not, this whole deal sounds like a BJ to the Russians. Coz if 7.62x39mm was the priority, we already had Ghataks and TARs. Pretty much similar to what we're getting in the name of AK-203.

"62 grain rifle" by this do you mean a 5.56 opearating rifle with a slower twist of 1:8 or 1:7 to fire that 62 grain or heavier round ?
Considering currently Indian Army uses the 5.56 x 45 mm SS 109, M 193 (62gr) FMJBT round in their 5.56 operating Rifles.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Hey @Unknowncommando 2 just saw your tweet, are you sure we are getting G2s with TREAD's handguard??

Coz AFAIK we are getting regular SIG 716i TREADs with fun switch and Magpul stock in place of factory.

The gas block in this pic looks more like a traditional direct impingement one than a selectable one of short-stroke piston.
View attachment 52735

Moreover there is this article about 716i's launch in US civilian market.
View attachment 52736
Can you please confirm.

Yes I am sure about that. Even LIVEFIST DEFENCE reported it as SIG 716 G2 Patrol. They are the first ones to post the pictures & with Shiv & Sandeep reporting it I don't have a doubt. As mentioned above 'New' SIG 716i TREAD models are 'similarly' build which means either we or SIG demanded or offered us respectively a lighter handguard before they launched civilian DI variant. @Gessler can help more with that.

 

[Lonewarrior]

"62 grain rifle" by this do you mean a 5.56 opearating rifle with a slower twist of 1:8 or 1:7 to fire that 62 grain or heavier round ?
Considering currently Indian Army uses the 5.56 x 45 mm SS 109, M 193 (62gr) FMJBT round in their 5.56 operating Rifles.

Yup, standard issue 62-63gr 5.56x45mm ammo.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Yes I am sure about that. Even LIVEFIST DEFENCE reported it as SIG 716 G2 Patrol. They are the first ones to post the pictures & with Shiv & Sandeep reporting it I don't have a doubt. As mentioned above 'New' SIG 716i TREAD models are 'similarly' build which means either we or SIG demanded or offered us respectively a lighter handguard before they launched civilian DI variant. @Gessler can help more with that.

I don't know if this sounds stupid, but ......uh,.....here i go...
when i look at the g2 it seems the handguard on that is bigger to accomodate the gas block and piston at that height from the barrel.....i.e the gap b/w gas block/piston and barrel inside the handguard would need to be more than that of the ones we bought.....just sayin'