Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

vampyrbladez

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sydsnyper

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All fit well into current logistics setup and ammunition production lines.

7.62 X 51 is current LMG. MMG ammunition and erstwhile SLR ammunition.
7.62 X 39 is current AK ammunition ,,,
5.56 X 45 is current INSAS ammunition...

So with new weapons no change in production lines and logistics holdings is going to e effected...
Why would you raise two new regiments ???
What about the weapons parts, maintenance, replacements, attachments - UBGLs, their grenades, scopes, buttstocks... and I have not even touched on training..
 

Bhadra

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What about the weapons parts, maintenance, replacements, attachments - UBGLs, their grenades, scopes, buttstocks... and I have not even touched on training..
Parts will be a problem for Sig Saur definitely.. but I am sure some negotiation would be carried out on some TOT for parts. or the OFB can manufacture local parts with so many INSAS assembly lines and manufacturing units going out of job.

However, I agree it is the parts of INSAS which caused all the problem for otherwise a good design.
Attachments and associated ammunition can be taken care of by OFB.. and DRDO
Training should not be any problem .. as AK-203 and 7.62 LMG will become standard personal weapon of Indian Army. Only Infantry soldiers will train for AK-203 and Sig Saur and Nagev LMG.

In the present setup Indian Infantry soldiers are well trained in INSAS and AK series . 7,62 LMG and INSAS LMG. This training load will not increase as INSAS would be out.

INSAS is a big lesson for OFB and DRDO as to how the lowest level of users that is soldiers must have acceptability of their products.
 

fire starter

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Parts will be a problem for Sig Saur definitely.. but I am sure some negotiation would be carried out on some TOT for parts. or the OFB can manufacture local parts with so many INSAS assembly lines and manufacturing units going out of job.

However, I agree it is the parts of INSAS which caused all the problem for otherwise a good design.
Attachments and associated ammunition can be taken care of by OFB.. and DRDO
Training should not be any problem .. as AK-203 and 7.62 LMG will become standard personal weapon of Indian Army. Only Infantry soldiers will train for AK-203 and Sig Saur and Nagev LMG.

In the present setup Indian Infantry soldiers are well trained in INSAS and AK series . 7,62 LMG and INSAS LMG. This training load will not increase as INSAS would be out.

INSAS is a big lesson for OFB and DRDO as to how the lowest level of users that is soldiers must have acceptability of their products.
what about rifles made by SSS do u think that army will give them at least a chance. As they are making zoo by buying carbines from UAE , rifles from USA and Russia and LMG from Israel.
 

vampyrbladez

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Parts will be a problem for Sig Saur definitely.. but I am sure some negotiation would be carried out on some TOT for parts. or the OFB can manufacture local parts with so many INSAS assembly lines and manufacturing units going out of job.

However, I agree it is the parts of INSAS which caused all the problem for otherwise a good design.
Attachments and associated ammunition can be taken care of by OFB.. and DRDO
Training should not be any problem .. as AK-203 and 7.62 LMG will become standard personal weapon of Indian Army. Only Infantry soldiers will train for AK-203 and Sig Saur and Nagev LMG.

In the present setup Indian Infantry soldiers are well trained in INSAS and AK series . 7,62 LMG and INSAS LMG. This training load will not increase as INSAS would be out.

INSAS is a big lesson for OFB and DRDO as to how the lowest level of users that is soldiers must have acceptability of their products.
In hindsight, the AK seems to be the most logical service rifle for Indian Military. Excellent performance in extreme weather conditions, high reliability, moderate to cheap pricing, easy training and great penetration upto 300m.

Even the bolt and Bolt carrier as well as the trigger groupings of the INSAS are from the AKM. It's just that Quality Control and ergonomics are so poor, it affects user experience.

https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131
 

Neil

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To fund this (+AK203), army canned a futuristic local Battlefield Mngt System program. Wonder which local program is now being canned to fund a fresh batch of these uber expensive rifles

 

piKacHHu

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To fund this (+AK203), army canned a futuristic local Battlefield Mngt System program. Wonder which local program is now being canned to fund a fresh batch of these uber expensive rifles

Quite a baseless charge; Replacement of vintage INSAS and equipping infantry soldier to teeth should be at highest priority rather than getting some futuristic battlefield management system.

On price part, he is wrong too; He should rather ask OFB for rates they are charging for local production of AK-203. Why should IA pay extra for OFB incompetency? It's better to let the OFB focus on production quality on ammunition and artillery shells they produce.
 

piKacHHu

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Nice Review of SIG 716i Tread. I expect the version IA is getting is similar to this one.


Capture.JPG


Gladly, the reviewer has found issue with the trigger system only in the whole analysis.

Overall, I’d rate the build quality of the SIG 716i TREAD as an 9.21 out of 10. Where a “one” is a slam-fire pipe and wood gun buyback turn-in piece, and a “ten” is a hand-fitted over/under 20 gauge fudd gun that costs more than my car.
It just needs a trigger swap.
His Final Words:

The SIG 716i TREAD is worth your money.
From the review it appears, that the SIG offered an affordable AR based solution in .308 cal US civilian market which is earlier dominated by $2000 & above AR a piece.

I wish we would able to see such all-aspect review for SSS ARs & DMRs in future.
 

Coalmine

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What happens to lakhs of Insas built after AK203. Will they be melted or kept and maintained and used when required?
 

another_armchair

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Quite a baseless charge; Replacement of vintage INSAS and equipping infantry soldier to teeth should be at highest priority rather than getting some futuristic battlefield management system.

On price part, he is wrong too; He should rather ask OFB for rates they are charging for local production of AK-203. Why should IA pay extra for OFB incompetency? It's better to let the OFB focus on production quality on ammunition and artillery shells they produce.
Poor CAPF's were made to cough up funds for procuring JVPC.

Hope they are not rusting in the "koth' while the forces figure out a use case for them.

It is a DAMN good weapon but would love to see how it gets used.

The retractable stock is likely undergo a mutation(murmurs).

Lacklustre response from the Army. Good response from CAPFs.

Some rumors of SPG evincing interest in the weapon.

Lets see.
 

WolfPack86

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Domestic arms makers say Army plan to reorder SIG rifles from US setback to ‘Make in India’
Army's fresh order for SIG assault rifles would mean over 1.4 lakh rifles will be bought off the shelf from US despite a domestic industry that manufactures a range of assault rifles.

New Delhi: The Army’s decision to go ahead with a second order of 72,000 SIG 716 assault rifles from the United States is yet another “setback” to the private small arms industry in India, and sharpens focus on the government’s inability to kickstart the AK 203 production factory in Amethi.

When the order for the SIG assault rifles is placed ⁠— under the option clause of the original contract signed for 72,400 rifles ⁠— it would mean that over 1.4 lakh 7.62×51 mm rifles in total will be bought off the shelf from abroad without a ‘Make in India’ initiative.

The domestic industry said the Army’s decision isn’t surprising, but is indeed a setback to them and doesn’t align with the government’s aatma nirbharta (self reliance) push. For now, domestic manufacturers are placing their bets on the Central Armed Police Forces (CAPF), special forces and the state police, besides the export market for their range of assault rifles.


Defence sources said the SIG assault rifles procurement had to do with a weapon already in service with troops. The fact that an option clause was part of the deal means the plan was always to buy more rifles, depending on the feedback and necessity.

On the ‘Make in India’ initiative, a source said it was being promoted through the AK 203 manufacturing factory, which is expected to be the mainstay of the armed forces. The source added that there are several other tenders in the works in which private domestic players are participating.

The Indian Army had been trying to replace their standard INSAS assault rifles for many years but has been unable to so due to varying factors.

The second batch of SIG rifles will arrive after the delivery of the first order this year, which was placed through the Fast Track Process (FTP). The option clause allows the Army to reorder the rifles for the same price within a similar delivery time-frame.

The new rifles will go to troops in the Northern Command and other operational areas, while the rest of the troops will be equipped with AK 203.


However, the SIG order draws attention to the fact that the government has not been able to start production of AK 203 rifles, chambered to fire 7.62×39 mm ammunition (same as the AK-47), at the Amethi factory that was inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi last March.

The Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited, established between the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kalashnikov Concern and Rosoboronexport, the Russian state agency for military exports, has seen a delay in starting production.

Earlier this year, the defence ministry had formed a committee to work out the cost of the AK 203 since the Russian partner and OFB are yet to arrive at an agreed price.

Domestic industry unhappy
A source in the defence industry said that when the Army suddenly decided to acquire AK 203 under a government-to-government initiative in 2018, it was the first blow. The SIG rifles deal was also a “setback” for private manufacturers.

“The Army’s decision to order for another tranche of rifles from the US is not surprising but is indeed a setback. A number of companies in India have come up with their own rifles and other systems or tied up with foreign companies and set up manufacturing facilities,” the source said.


A second source said, “The arms manufactured by India have to go through multiple tests. From summer trials to winters to high altitude and desert. However, under the FTP model, the foreign manufacturer shows off the ability in their own factory and is selected under emergency clause.”

A third source said, “The talk now is of ‘Make in India’ and ‘Atmanirbartha’. But when domestic industry is offering world-class rifles, the focus is still on procuring from abroad. Do note that the 1.4 lakh rifles from US will be straight import without any Make in India or technology transfer.”

Domestic manufacturers up their game
One of the early companies to set up an arms manufacturing plant in India was PLR Systems in a tie-up with Israeli Weapons System (IWI).

Under the deal, the companies began producing weapons like Tavor series, the mainstay of the special forces in India, along with others like the Galil sniper rifle, Uzi Pro submachine gun, Masada pistol and the Negev Light Machine Gun (LMG) with indigenous content ranging from 40-60 per cent.

In case of a repeat order, though, it is sent to IWI directly instead of the local manufacturing unit since there will be a change in the name of the firm.

“This means that there will have to be fresh trials even when it is the same rifle manufactured in India with a large indigenous component,” a third source said.

Bengaluru-based SSS Defence is another company in the domestic market. The company manufactures a sniper, assault rifle and light machine gun.

The rifles are completely indigenously designed, with SSS Defence holding the Intellectual Property Rights for its design.

Bharat Forge of the Kalyani Group also works in the small arms market and has tie-ups with a foreign player for indigenous manufacturing for an Army contract bid.

Army’s quest for assault rifles
In 2011, the Army issued a global tender for procurement of assault rifles wherein Colt of United States, Beretta of Italy, IWI of Israel and Ceska of Czeck Republic participated.

However, this attempt failed since only the IWI weapon qualified the trials and was declared the resultant single vendor.

The Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), DRDO and OFB also tried to design and develop assault rifles to replace the INSAS. However, none of their weapons made the cut.

Yet another Request for Proposal (RFP) for procurement of assault rifles was issued in 2017 with assurance of a floating RFP in 2018.

Given the situation, it was felt that a certain quantity of rifles needed to be procured on an urgent basis for the frontline troops.

Accordingly, the Indian Army planned to procure 72,400 assault rifles of Calibre 7.62x51mm through the Fast Track Process route.

Later, the Army backed the idea of manufacturing AK rifles jointly with Russia, a project that the Russians had been pushing for a while.
 

operatorgrumby

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Nice Review of SIG 716i Tread. I expect the version IA is getting is similar to this one.


View attachment 52912

Gladly, the reviewer has found issue with the trigger system only in the whole analysis.



His Final Words:



From the review it appears, that the SIG offered an affordable AR based solution in .308 cal US civilian market which is earlier dominated by $2000 & above AR a piece.

I wish we would able to see such all-aspect review for SSS ARs & DMRs in future.
Is it SIG 716i Tread or the Mil-Spec (Semi & Auto ) version of G2 Patrol with M-Lok rail that IA ordered/going to order ?🤔
 

piKacHHu

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Is it SIG 716i Tread or the Mil-Spec (Semi & Auto ) version of G2 Patrol with M-Lok rail that IA ordered/going to order ?🤔
'There is no official word on the SIG 716 model that IA has procured; however as deduced by @Gessler et. al in this thread from first pictures of SIGs (Courtesy Livefist ) in the hands of Indian soldier, the model on offer is a DI based AR rather the SS piston based G2 Patrol/ SIG .308 DMR.

Some US based websites have also reported that the version exported to India is based on DI Tread or vice-versa.

Back in February 2019, SIG announced that it shipped 72,400 SIG716 rifles out to the Indian Army. The last of those rifles ship out later this month. Why is that important? SIG told BallisticMag.com that the new 716i TREAD models have a similar build to that of the Indian Army contract rifles, hence the timing.
 

Bhadra

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Domestic arms makers say Army plan to reorder SIG rifles from US setback to ‘Make in India’
Army's fresh order for SIG assault rifles would mean over 1.4 lakh rifles will be bought off the shelf from US despite a domestic industry that manufactures a range of assault rifles.

New Delhi: The Army’s decision to go ahead with a second order of 72,000 SIG 716 assault rifles from the United States is yet another “setback” to the private small arms industry in India, and sharpens focus on the government’s inability to kickstart the AK 203 production factory in Amethi.

When the order for the SIG assault rifles is placed ⁠— under the option clause of the original contract signed for 72,400 rifles ⁠— it would mean that over 1.4 lakh 7.62×51 mm rifles in total will be bought off the shelf from abroad without a ‘Make in India’ initiative.

The domestic industry said the Army’s decision isn’t surprising, but is indeed a setback to them and doesn’t align with the government’s aatma nirbharta (self reliance) push. For now, domestic manufacturers are placing their bets on the Central Armed Police Forces (CAPF), special forces and the state police, besides the export market for their range of assault rifles.


Defence sources said the SIG assault rifles procurement had to do with a weapon already in service with troops. The fact that an option clause was part of the deal means the plan was always to buy more rifles, depending on the feedback and necessity.

On the ‘Make in India’ initiative, a source said it was being promoted through the AK 203 manufacturing factory, which is expected to be the mainstay of the armed forces. The source added that there are several other tenders in the works in which private domestic players are participating.

The Indian Army had been trying to replace their standard INSAS assault rifles for many years but has been unable to so due to varying factors.

The second batch of SIG rifles will arrive after the delivery of the first order this year, which was placed through the Fast Track Process (FTP). The option clause allows the Army to reorder the rifles for the same price within a similar delivery time-frame.

The new rifles will go to troops in the Northern Command and other operational areas, while the rest of the troops will be equipped with AK 203.


However, the SIG order draws attention to the fact that the government has not been able to start production of AK 203 rifles, chambered to fire 7.62×39 mm ammunition (same as the AK-47), at the Amethi factory that was inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi last March.

The Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited, established between the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kalashnikov Concern and Rosoboronexport, the Russian state agency for military exports, has seen a delay in starting production.

Earlier this year, the defence ministry had formed a committee to work out the cost of the AK 203 since the Russian partner and OFB are yet to arrive at an agreed price.

Domestic industry unhappy
A source in the defence industry said that when the Army suddenly decided to acquire AK 203 under a government-to-government initiative in 2018, it was the first blow. The SIG rifles deal was also a “setback” for private manufacturers.

“The Army’s decision to order for another tranche of rifles from the US is not surprising but is indeed a setback. A number of companies in India have come up with their own rifles and other systems or tied up with foreign companies and set up manufacturing facilities,” the source said.


A second source said, “The arms manufactured by India have to go through multiple tests. From summer trials to winters to high altitude and desert. However, under the FTP model, the foreign manufacturer shows off the ability in their own factory and is selected under emergency clause.”

A third source said, “The talk now is of ‘Make in India’ and ‘Atmanirbartha’. But when domestic industry is offering world-class rifles, the focus is still on procuring from abroad. Do note that the 1.4 lakh rifles from US will be straight import without any Make in India or technology transfer.”

Domestic manufacturers up their game
One of the early companies to set up an arms manufacturing plant in India was PLR Systems in a tie-up with Israeli Weapons System (IWI).

Under the deal, the companies began producing weapons like Tavor series, the mainstay of the special forces in India, along with others like the Galil sniper rifle, Uzi Pro submachine gun, Masada pistol and the Negev Light Machine Gun (LMG) with indigenous content ranging from 40-60 per cent.

In case of a repeat order, though, it is sent to IWI directly instead of the local manufacturing unit since there will be a change in the name of the firm.

“This means that there will have to be fresh trials even when it is the same rifle manufactured in India with a large indigenous component,” a third source said.

Bengaluru-based SSS Defence is another company in the domestic market. The company manufactures a sniper, assault rifle and light machine gun.

The rifles are completely indigenously designed, with SSS Defence holding the Intellectual Property Rights for its design.

Bharat Forge of the Kalyani Group also works in the small arms market and has tie-ups with a foreign player for indigenous manufacturing for an Army contract bid.

Army’s quest for assault rifles
In 2011, the Army issued a global tender for procurement of assault rifles wherein Colt of United States, Beretta of Italy, IWI of Israel and Ceska of Czeck Republic participated.

However, this attempt failed since only the IWI weapon qualified the trials and was declared the resultant single vendor.

The Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), DRDO and OFB also tried to design and develop assault rifles to replace the INSAS. However, none of their weapons made the cut.

Yet another Request for Proposal (RFP) for procurement of assault rifles was issued in 2017 with assurance of a floating RFP in 2018.

Given the situation, it was felt that a certain quantity of rifles needed to be procured on an urgent basis for the frontline troops.

Accordingly, the Indian Army planned to procure 72,400 assault rifles of Calibre 7.62x51mm through the Fast Track Process route.

Later, the Army backed the idea of manufacturing AK rifles jointly with Russia, a project that the Russians had been pushing for a while.
When INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifle was pushed down the thraot of the Army in nineties it had 200 faults to begin with. The IA was promised that all faults would be rectifies in due course. Once accepted and supply commenced nothing much was done. The OFB was making their cut on every part supplied by loacl vendors .. right from barrels to trigger gaurds, to utt stocks to moving parts etc. It took them to 45 soldiers of Napalese Army getting massacred by Maoist when INSAS stopped functioning. Nepal and Srilanka threw the rifles back at India..

That is the level of betryal OFB is capable of... Same is the story of Arjun tank..

No one will touch an OFB weapons given a choice. There have been more than 20 years since INSAS was shubbed up the Army but no further work ever done on it.. When Army stopped. they shubbed it up CAPF and state police...

The DODOs of ARDE could not ever think of improving any small arm like carbine. LMG, MMG or snipers ... it was "small" for their dignity...

No one has any right to point a finger now....
 

operatorgrumby

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I know it's an old picture but which rifle is this in the picture?
It's a 7.62x51 NATO one with a TONBO/UWS Arjun Thermal Sight kinda looks like a SIG 716🤔
DUn3HWNX4AAuKKQ.jpeg
 

piKacHHu

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The repeat order for sig is a signal to Russian to tone down the price of ak203 and start producing asap. Because if it's going to be costly india would rather buy directly from USA.

Hopefully russian learn the lesson fast.
If possible, cancel the whole plan of equipping army with AK-203 as the standard issue firearm. Rather explore SSS P-72 if it can compete along the AKs. Induction of SIGs could provide buffer for a couple of years till we select a local candidate with its own IPRs for AR production .

The whole problem is that under Modi, Babus get cold feet while dealing with private firms via open tender process in fear of corruption allegations. That's the precise reason why K-C was chosen as a part of G-to-G deal between India & Russia. Sadly, this fear is compelling Babus to make decisions which is devoid of any long term vision for promotion of local defense industry.
 

piKacHHu

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