Indian Army: News and Discussion

Bhadra

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Held Strength of Armed Forces Uniform Personnel, 2019

Service
Category
No.
% of Total
Army​
Officers​
42,913​
3.0​
Personnel Below Officer Rank (PBOR)​
11,85,146​
82.4​
Total​
12,28,059​
85.4​
Navy​
Officers​
10,979​
0.8​
Sailors​
58,073​
4.0​
Total​
69,052​
4.8​
Air Force​
Officers​
12,159​
0.8​
Airmen​
1,29,447​
9.0​
Total​
1,41,606​
9.8​
Total Officers​
66,051​
4.6​
Total Others​
13,72,666​
95.4​
Total (Officers and Others)​
14,38,717​
100.0​
 

Bhadra

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It is worthwhile mentioning here that the number of defence pensioners as reported by the Standing Committee on Defence does not capture all the retirees on the MoD’s payroll. There is a sizeable number of pensioners who retired from various defence establishments but their pension is paid through the MoF’s civil pension budget. As of 2020, there are about 73,700 MoD civil pensioners, a majority of whom are retired employees of the Defence Accounts Department (DAD), Borders Roads Organisation (BRO), Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry (JKLI) and the Coast Guard (CG). Suffice it to say that the non-pensionary expenses of these organisations are paid through the MoD’s civil estimate. In 2020-21, the budget for MoD civil pension amounts to Rs 5,114 crore, which includes about Rs 1,000 crore as the government’s contribution towards the National Pension System (NPS) for all civilian employees paid through the DSE and the MoD’s civil estimates.

The number of defence pensioners funded by both MoD and MoF adds up to nearly 33,09,430, which represents 51 per cent of the total number of central government pensioners (65,36,469).[SUP][1][/SUP] In terms of expenses, defence pensioners, including MoD civil pensioners, account for 51 per cent of the total central government pension budget in 2020-21.

Table 2 summarises the number of personnel in eight broad categories. The total numbers add up to 53,06,580, which is nearly 2,33,700 more than previous estimates of 50,72,880 as mentioned earlier.



For the total number of Central Government pensioners, see “Performance Dashboard: Central Government Pensioners as on 31.03.2019”, Department of Pension & Pensioners' Welfare, Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances & Pensions, Government of India.
 

Bhadra

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Manpower of MoD
It is worthwhile mentioning here that the number of defence pensioners as reported by the Standing Committee on Defence does not capture all the retirees on the MoD’s payroll.

There is a sizeable number of pensioners who retired from various defence establishments but their pension is paid through the MoF’s civil pension budget.
As of 2020, there are about 73,700 MoD civil pensioners, a majority of whom are retired employees of the
Defence Accounts Department (DAD),
Borders Roads Organisation (BRO),
Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry (JKLI) and t
he Coast Guard (CG).

Suffice it to say that the non-pensionary expenses of these organisations are paid through the MoD’s civil estimate. In 2020-21, the budget for MoD civil pension amounts to Rs 5,114 crore, which includes about Rs 1,000 crore as the government’s contribution towards the National Pension System (NPS) for all civilian employees paid through the DSE and the MoD’s civil estimates.

The number of defence pensioners funded by both MoD and MoF adds up to nearly 33,09,430, which represents 51 per cent of the total number of central government pensioners (65,36,469).[SUP][1][/SUP] In terms of expenses, defence pensioners, including MoD civil pensioners, account for 51 per cent of the total central government pension budget in 2020-21.

The above summarises the number of personnel in eight broad categories. The total numbers add up to 53,06,580, which is nearly 2,33,700 more than previous estimates of 50,72,880 as mentioned earlier.
 

Bhadra

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Defence Manpower

Category (Year)
No.
% of Total
Uniformed Personnel (2019)​
14,38,717​
27​
Defence Civilians (2017-18)​
3,98,422​
7.5​
Defence Pensioners (2018-19)​
32,35,730​
61​
MoD Civil Pensioners (DAD, JKLI, CG, BRO) (2020)​
73,700​
1.4​
Defence Security Corps (2020)​
62,200​
1.2​
Armed Forces Recruits under Training (2020)​
74,575​
1.4​
NCs (E) of Indian Air Force (2020)​
11,300​
0.2​
Medical, Dental and Nursing Officers (2018)​
11,936​
0.2​
Total​
53,06,580​
100​
 

Bhadra

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Distribution of Defence Civilian Manpower

Category of Manpower (Year)
Sanctioned
Strength
(No)
Held
Strength (No.)
Shortages (%)
Civilians in air force (2020)​
N.A.​
21,200​
---​
Civilians in navy (2015-16)​
46,826​
37,888​
19​
Military Engineer Services (MES) (2017-18)​
1,19,505​
61,722​
48​
Corps of Electronics and Mechanical Engineers (EME)​
18,403​
14,261​
23​
Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) (2019-20)​
1,45,503​
80,524​
45​
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) (2018-19)​
N.A​
24,732​
---​
Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA) (2005)​
18,567​
13,435​
28​
Border Roads Organisation (BRO) (2018-19)​
41,600​
33,587​
19​
Defence Accounts Department (DAD) (2018-19)​
29,994​
19,109​
36​
Defence Estate Organisation (DEO) (2018-19)​
1,270​
824​
35​
Coast Guard Organisation (2018-19)​
13,842​
13,842​
0​
Armed Forces Headquarters (AFHQ) Cadre (2020)​
11,352​
8,190​
28​
Canteen Stores Department (CSD) (2018-19)​
3,668​
2,348​
36​
Armed Forces Tribunal (2018-19)​
592​
374​
37​
Department of Defence (Including Finance Division) (2018-19)​
1,590​
1,144​
28​
Department of Defence Production (2018-19)​
162​
139​
14​
Department of Defence Research and Development (2018-19)​
21​
18​
14​
Department of Ex-Servicemen Welfare (DESW) (2018-19)​
68​
45​
34​
Total​
4,52,963​
3,33,382​
---
 

Bhadra

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. Defence Manpower Cost, 2020-21


Manpower Element
Amount
(Rs in
Crore)
% of
Defence
Budget^
P&A as Summarised in the DSE​
1,53,910​
32​
Defence Pension (Paid through the MoD’s budget)​
1,33,825​
28​
MoD Civil Pension (Paid through the MoF’s budget)​
5,114​
1.1​
Salary of Coast Guard, DAD, BRO and JKLI* personnel​
6,332​
1.3​
P&A of MES#​
2,262​
0.5​
Provisions (fresh ration, dry ration, milk and milk products, etc)​
4,000​
0.8​
Ex-Servicemen Contributory Healthy Scheme (ECHS)​
3,000​
0.6​
Clothing**​
356​
0.1​
Total​
3,08,799​
65​
 

Bhadra

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* From the figures above it appears as if MoD is more of Ministry of Babus rather than fighting soldiers..

* About 50 percent of the expenditure incurred is on pensionary liability including a sizable amount of Civilian employees pensions.

* Whereas officer strength of Armed Forces is about1-3 % when it comes to Class a services ratio amongst Civilian employees they are as high as six percent. MoD hs preponderance of Sahabs and Bosses ( no wonder DFI attracts significant Armed Forces abusers who mainly are civilian Babus of MoD. OFB DODOs and others).

* The main opposition to Armed Forces pay and perks, amenities, privileges comes from these insider civilian enemies of Uniformed soldiers who are so plenty available inside MoD itself especially the so-called "Note Makers"..
*
 

Alligator

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* From the figures above it appears as if MoD is more of Ministry of Babus rather than fighting soldiers..

* About 50 percent of the expenditure incurred is on pensionary liability including a sizable amount of Civilian employees pensions.

* Whereas officer strength of Armed Forces is about1-3 % when it comes to Class a services ratio amongst Civilian employees they are as high as six percent. MoD hs preponderance of Sahabs and Bosses ( no wonder DFI attracts significant Armed Forces abusers who mainly are civilian Babus of MoD. OFB DODOs and others).

* The main opposition to Armed Forces pay and perks, amenities, privileges comes from these insider civilian enemies of Uniformed soldiers who are so plenty available inside MoD itself especially the so-called "Note Makers"..
*
You raise a very valid point about the bloated size of defence civilians but the good thing is that steps are being taken to rectify it
Corporatizaton of ofb alone will cut 80k civilians from mod
Second largest recruiter of defence civilians ie MES
Is also going to lay off many employees as the government moves to GOCO model of running army base workshops, air force BRDs and navy ship repair facilities.9k mes posts were recently abolished and more will be once GOCO model takes off
 

Tanmay

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Had a few layman doubts, they could be weird

Is there any difference in the way pensions are funded for civilian (Police+bureaucrats+other Class A B C D employees) and the army?

Similar funding/pension issues should be faced by railways and other gormint departments with lakhs of staff retired or on payroll. So why is the Army manpower usually in news for funding issues. I do understand other departments will have a revenue generating stuff with them.

Even the Police department is similar to Army in manpower (Maharahtra has 2 lakh police personnel and probably thousands of retirees), so why pension bills arent an issue there? Even police wont generate too much revenue. I do understand that state gormint pays them and not the centre.

In short, is there any procedural difference in pension disbursement which causes this "fund sucker" issue like OROP (surely needed for retired folks, but with the problem of taking away more capital funds )
 

Alligator

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Had a few layman doubts, they could be weird

Is there any difference in the way pensions are funded for civilian (Police+bureaucrats+other Class A B C D employees) and the army?

Similar funding/pension issues should be faced by railways and other gormint departments with lakhs of staff retired or on payroll. So why is the Army manpower usually in news for funding issues. I do understand other departments will have a revenue generating stuff with them.

Even the Police department is similar to Army in manpower (Maharahtra has 2 lakh police personnel and probably thousands of retirees), so why pension bills arent an issue there? Even police wont generate too much revenue. I do understand that state gormint pays them and not the centre.

In short, is there any procedural difference in pension disbursement which causes this "fund sucker" issue like OROP (surely needed for retired folks, but with the problem of taking away more capital funds )
Non defence employees get pensions through a contributory pension scheme ie the employee and the employer contribute a certain amount each month
The employee's contribution is deducted from his salary every month
On superannuation the employee can get a lump sum ammount as fixed monthly pension
Defense employees however draw pension directly from the government
 

Tanmay

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Non defence employees get pensions through a contributory pension scheme ie the employee and the employer contribute a certain amount each month
The employee's contribution is deducted from his salary every month
On superannuation the employee can get a lump sum ammount as fixed monthly pension
Defense employees however draw pension directly from the government and do not contribute
I guess gormint employees come under New Pension Scheme NPS.

So any reason why military doesnt have contributory scheme? Even civil MOD employees dont contribute?
 

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I guess gormint employees come under New Pension Scheme NPS.

So any reason why military doesnt have contributory scheme? Even civil MOD employees dont contribute?
I think it is very reasonable to give pensions to retired defence personnel
As far as defense civilians go they should come under new pension scheme. There was a proposal to implement this but I think it was shot down.
There is no reason for an ofb waala to be getting a government pension
 
Last edited:

Bhadra

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I guess gormint employees come under New Pension Scheme NPS.

So any reason why military doesnt have contributory scheme? Even civil MOD employees dont contribute?
That is very good question which I will try and answer.

A civilian employee of GoI including police forces and CAPF are recruted around 22 year of age and retire at above 56 years of age thereby rendering about 35 to 40 years of service. When he retires he has grown up children well settled family and less dependent on him. He has drawn 40 years of pay and salary, perks, allowances and govt protection for that long a period. So earlier he used to draw a pension but now after 2004 entry he draws a pension under NPS which is the cumulation of his and govt contribution sufficient to maintain a standard of life which he enjoyed when in service.

On another hand, an Army jawan or service personnel joins between 18 - 20 years of age and after 15 -17 years of cour service he retires at the age of 32 -36 years of young age, new family, unsettled life, young children and no alternate job, So as a measure of national social and moral responsibility he is paid a pension. His pension is fixed at half the pay last drawn at the completion of say 14 years Service. Compare that the pension of civilians which is faxed at fifty percent of the pay of 40 years of service... triple the difference.

So it is very necessary to pay a pension to the young man or he and his family will die of hunger in this employment world.
 
Last edited:

Bhadra

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Had a few layman doubts, they could be weird

Is there any difference in the way pensions are funded for civilian (Police+bureaucrats+other Class A B C D employees) and the army?

Similar funding/pension issues should be faced by railways and other gormint departments with lakhs of staff retired or on payroll. So why is the Army manpower usually in news for funding issues. I do understand other departments will have a revenue generating stuff with them.

Even the Police department is similar to Army in manpower (Maharahtra has 2 lakh police personnel and probably thousands of retirees), so why pension bills arent an issue there? Even police wont generate too much revenue. I do understand that state gormint pays them and not the centre.

In short, is there any procedural difference in pension disbursement which causes this "fund sucker" issue like OROP (surely needed for retired folks, but with the problem of taking away more capital funds )
All pensionary issues of retired central govt employees minus the Railways is looked after and managed by DOPT which a separate depth under it for Pensions.

Railways pay pensions to its retired employees through their pension offices looked after by Railways accounts.
 

Holy Triad

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I appreciate the state government offering a respectable status to veterans n their family members.

Unlike some,left their veterans to guard traffic signals. State government jobs offered by both state n central governments should reflect their rank n the gallantry awards they received.


Santoshi w/o of Late C. Santosh Babu has been appointed as Deputy Comissioner, Revenue Department, Telangana Government.
Image


 

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Ready To Fight With Indigenous Arms: Army Vice Chief
At a time when self-reliance in the defence sector is a top priority for the government, army vice chief Lieutenant General SK Saini on Monday said developing indigenous capabilities to face security challenges was imperative because during crunch situations, technologies developed by other countries would either not be available or be at the cost of India’s strategic autonomy.



At a Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) webinar, Saini assured the industry of the army’s unequivocal commitment to the Make in India initiative and sought to dispel the notion that the force has an import bias. He said the army was more than ready to fight with locally produced equipment provided it passed stringent quality tests and manufacturers adhered to delivery timelines.



Saini said it was critical to equip the army with the best weapons and systems to fight its adversaries as heavy costs were imposed on the runner-up.



“Self-reliance in defence production through advanced technologies and manufacturing capacity consolidated indigenously and expeditiously will be imperative for an effective and independent foreign policy,” said former army vice chief Lieutenant General AS Lamba (Retd).



The army is pursuing a raft of projects through the indigenous route including third-generation anti-tank guided missiles, upgrades of infantry combat vehicles, precision ammunition, tank ammunition, drone kill systems and a variety of radars.



In his Independence Day speech, Prime Minister Narendra Modi covered the significance of self-reliance in the defence sector and steps being taken to attain the goal. He said the government had imposed an import ban on 101 types of weapons and ammunition — from missiles to transport aircraft and assault rifles to light combat helicopters --- to provide a push to self-reliance in the defence sector.

The military hardware on the negative import list, released by the government on August 9, includes assault rifles, sniper rifles, short-range surface-to-air missiles, beyond visual range air-to-air missiles, corvettes, missile destroyers, ship-borne cruise missiles, light combat aircraft, a variety of radars and different types of ammunition.



Speaking at the webinar, Raj Kumar, secretary, defence production, said the government was working on the second negative import list of defence items and it would be expanded periodically.



He said that the announcement of the first set of embargoed items on imports would accelerate the process of indigenisation.



“Industry will also have to meet the needs of future wars with future products. The industry will now have to shoulder the responsibility of catering to the requirements of embargoed items domestically,” a FICCI statement quoted Kumar as saying.



Kumar said the domestic defence industry would hold online interactions with the representatives of friendly countries to understand their defence needs, and country-wise profiles of weapons and systems they may require would be prepared to promote exports.

From raising foreign direct investment (FDI) limits in defence manufacturing to creating a separate budget for buying locally made military hardware and notifying a list of weapons/equipment that cannot be imported, the government had announced a raft of measures to boost self-reliance in the defence sector in May 2020.



Imports account for 60-65% of the country’s military requirements and it has signed contracts worth billions of dollars during the last decade for weapons and systems including fighter jets, air defence missile systems, submarine hunter planes, attack helicopters, heavy-lift choppers and lightweight howitzers.



India was the third-biggest military spender in the world last year after the United States and China, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) said in a report released in April.
 

WolfPack86

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We do not have an import bias, ready to fight with equipment made in India: Indian Army
Batting for the Indian industry, the Army has asserted that it does not have an import bias and is more than willing to fight with domestically made weapon systems, especially as importing technology during crunch situations could have an impact on strategic autonomy.

Terming the last year as a game changer for indigenous defence manufacturing, Vice Chief of Army Staff Lt Gen SK Saini has said that all equipment must pass tests of quality and adhere to timelines but there assured that the force is committed to equipment designed and made in India.

“Developing indigenous and local capabilities to confront emerging security challenges is an imperative need. It is no secret that during crunch situations, technologies developed by other countries would either not be available or if shared, will be at the cost of our strategic autonomy,” Lt Gen Saini said at a webinar organised by FICCI.


He added that “It will always be an honour for us to fight and win wars with equipment Made in India and made by Indians,”. The comments gain significance given the ongoing crisis with China and multiple emergency purchase deals that are being negotiation with foreign nations since June to urgently acquire equipment ranging from arms, ammunition and missiles to tanks and drones.

Top bureaucrat, Defence Production Secretary Raj Kumar said that a number of initiatives have been taken to promote Indian industry and shared that a note on revised Foreign Direct Investment rules (to take it up to 74 percent under the automatic route) have been shared with cabinet for approval.

Kumar laid out a roadmap for indigenous production and said that exports will be of high importance in coming years and that these would be led by the industry. The bureaucrat said that efforts are on to identify sets of weapons that can be offered to friendly nations and the industry would lead efforts to interact and generate lists with defence attaches of foreign countries.

“We want to Make for India and for the world. We also want you to export and the government will stand side by side with the industry to promote exports,” he said, adding that the government is working on generating a second negative import list for defence equipment and that this would be periodically expanded.

In an important clarification, Sanjay Jaju, Joint Secretary (DIP), Ministry of Defence said that the negative list would not impact ongoing purchases under the `buy Indian’ route but the industry is being invited to raise attention if procurements going under the global route can be manufactured domestically.
 

Rchauhan

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We do not have an import bias, ready to fight with equipment made in India: Indian Army
Batting for the Indian industry, the Army has asserted that it does not have an import bias and is more than willing to fight with domestically made weapon systems, especially as importing technology during crunch situations could have an impact on strategic autonomy.

Terming the last year as a game changer for indigenous defence manufacturing, Vice Chief of Army Staff Lt Gen SK Saini has said that all equipment must pass tests of quality and adhere to timelines but there assured that the force is committed to equipment designed and made in India.

“Developing indigenous and local capabilities to confront emerging security challenges is an imperative need. It is no secret that during crunch situations, technologies developed by other countries would either not be available or if shared, will be at the cost of our strategic autonomy,” Lt Gen Saini said at a webinar organised by FICCI.


He added that “It will always be an honour for us to fight and win wars with equipment Made in India and made by Indians,”. The comments gain significance given the ongoing crisis with China and multiple emergency purchase deals that are being negotiation with foreign nations since June to urgently acquire equipment ranging from arms, ammunition and missiles to tanks and drones.

Top bureaucrat, Defence Production Secretary Raj Kumar said that a number of initiatives have been taken to promote Indian industry and shared that a note on revised Foreign Direct Investment rules (to take it up to 74 percent under the automatic route) have been shared with cabinet for approval.

Kumar laid out a roadmap for indigenous production and said that exports will be of high importance in coming years and that these would be led by the industry. The bureaucrat said that efforts are on to identify sets of weapons that can be offered to friendly nations and the industry would lead efforts to interact and generate lists with defence attaches of foreign countries.

“We want to Make for India and for the world. We also want you to export and the government will stand side by side with the industry to promote exports,” he said, adding that the government is working on generating a second negative import list for defence equipment and that this would be periodically expanded.

In an important clarification, Sanjay Jaju, Joint Secretary (DIP), Ministry of Defence said that the negative list would not impact ongoing purchases under the `buy Indian’ route but the industry is being invited to raise attention if procurements going under the global route can be manufactured domestically.
I guess these are only hollow words , There are lot of options in India instead of going for AK203 (SSS , IWI etc) but still they are going for Ak203 ..,,
I say let there be some issue with SSS Gun , we can sort those out later ... Even AK203 is not a perfect gun .... IWI Guns are also being manufactured in India now ,,,, Give these two companies a chance just like we did with ATAGS

AK203 contract is not yet Inked and we can still opt for one of the Guns made by these Indian Players
 

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