Indian Army Artillery

[Kunal Biswas]

where did you get this pic, Kunal sir ?

I did lot of search for this pic.

Sir, key words are k9 wheeled on google,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

KB sir...any idea how does DONAR compares to PzH 2000....both being german...??!!

Better than phz2000, weights 38tons, two crew compare to five,fully automated, though IA don't like hi Tec though..

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, key words are k9 wheeled on google,

thanks kunal sir this pic

was taken by me from my old cell phone camera in 2008 posted in old Indian Defence forum. Thanks for the pic..........:thumb:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

KB sir...any idea how does DONAR compares to PzH 2000....both being german...??!!

Donar carry same gun as PZH 2000 and more or less same ammo, though its is fully automated and require 2 men to operate where as PHZ 2000 needs 5 men, PHZ-2000 is nearly 70 tons where as Donar is just 38 or less tons, Both are German..

[video=youtube_share;TAm9i_UHCak]http://youtu.be/TAm9i_UHCak[/video]

 

[Pablo Munoz]

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone posted that TATA sent a 8x8 Specialist Vehicle to Denel Land Systems for India's own truck mounted gun-howitzer.

Any new updates or news on that?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone posted that TATA sent a 8x8 Specialist Vehicle to Denel Land Systems for India's own truck mounted gun-howitzer.

Any new updates or news on that?

There is no conform information on open that TATA send any trucks there, If so then we may see this in future..

There are two trucks in 8x8 category in TATA..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

New Delhi: That the Indian Army's artillery regiments are in desperate need of a makeover is well known. But the process of modernisation and upgrade has moved at a glacial pace. The only new weapon in sight is the M777 light howitzer which has been cleared for procurement from BAE Systems in the US. The DRDO has now stepped in, reviving an old artillery project that had been shut down some years ago owing to the Army's lack of interest in an indigenous project.

Working this time with the Army's full backing, the DRDO has begun work on a new 155mm 52-calibre gun that could take a decade to develop and field. Dr S Sundaresh, head of the team for the new artillery project, said in an exclusive interview to CNN-IBN that the gun would comprise certain high-end technologies that could require a foreign collaborator.

We are proposing to develop a futuristic gun in consultation with the Army. We are in dialogue with the Army for some of the new technologies we are proposing to introduce into this gun, for example a special coating for the barrel to enhance its life, the smart recoil system with rheological fluid or an electrical drive to elevate and traverse the gun. We are in dialogue with the Army to finalise the Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) hopefully in the next couple of months. We have already started design work and will modify the design to suit the PSQR.

Since these are new technologies, we expect in about four to five years time we should be ready with a prototype for user trials, followed by summer and winter trials. Production could commence in about nine to 10 years' time. So the development cycle is 5-7 years including evaluation by the Army.

ON NEW TECHNOLOGIES

We want to try new technology in the area of recoil. The standard recoil systems are hydro-pneumatic but we are looking at an electro rheological liquid which has adaptive viscosity characteristics. So it will have adaptive damping, you will get a smooth consistent recoil no matter what the weight of the shell and what range you are firing at. That makes for a more reliable recoil system. The PSQRs demand new technology such as barrel coating. So the plan is to first build the barrel using current technologies and then try coating. Once that barrel development technology has matured, we can add new technologies and improve its performance. A number of foreign firms are willing to offer the coating technology. We are in dialogue but nothing has been firmed up yet. In order to cut down on time, we may get the technology from abroad, especially about the barrel coating and the recoilless system.

ON TANK GUNS VS ARTILLERY GUNS

Basically, both tanks and non-rocket artillery have rifled guns but when you look at the length of the barrel, the artillery gun barrels are much longer than tank barrels. The artillery shell is heavier, so the force of recoil is heavier. Accordingly, you require a proper recoil mechanism and a muzzle brake system.

ON LONE RANGER EFFORT

Nobody else in the world is developing a new gun. BAE Systems Bofors, Denel and Singapore Technologies have developed technologies for the guns they built. Nexter of France has also done the same but no serious development is taking place in terms of new guns. All guns are being produced with existing technology, so we will be the only country taking up this development. We have a large requirement and even if we take up development today, we can meet our requirements 10 years from now for a state-of-the-art gun system.

The Ordnance Factory Board is working on a gun based on the ToT documents received from Bofors. So they will be building a 155mm 39-calibre gun as well as a 155mm 45-calibre one. DRDO is helping them with the 45-calibre barrel design and external ballistics.

ON SELF PROPELLED GUNS

Self propelled guns are now at the RFP stage and we have teamed up with BEML for the Army tender. BEML is taking the turret from the Czech firm Zusana and the same will be integrated on the Arjun tank chassis. Hopefully trials will commence within a year[

DRDO, Army working on futuristic artillery gun - India News - IBNLive

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some picture of 155mm of 45 cal guns in IA..

 

[Ankit Purohit]

There is no conform information on open that TATA send any trucks there, If so then we may see this in future..

There are two trucks in 8x8 category in TATA..

8x8 category in TATA has aTatra type wheel suspension ?

 

[Ankit Purohit]

 

[Bhadra]

There is no conform information on open that TATA send any trucks there, If so then we may see this in future..

There are two trucks in 8x8 category in TATA..

Kunal, Do not you think it presents a huge target for counter battery fires as also columns being ambushed with anti tank guns and missiles? I do not think it can fire while on move.

 

[Zebra]

8x8 category in TATA has aTatra type wheel suspension ?

No.

Please check post #26 @ http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/23781-tatra-trucks-bring-170m-kickbacks-2.html

This pictures will give some idea....the difference in between these two types.

Tatra:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

8x8 category in TATA has aTatra type wheel suspension ?

Cant say for sure, These vehicles are meant to be in same performance range as tatra..

Kunal, Do not you think it presents a huge target for counter battery fires as also columns being ambushed with anti tank guns and missiles? I do not think it can fire while on move.

Lesser than others..

1. These trucks will carry 52cal guns which ranges 40-70kms with modern ammo, far behind borders..

2. These Trucks are mobile, WLR can detect incoming shells which determine location of arty fire by the time it react these are far..

3. When in a WLR atmosphere on both sides these system are separated by distance..

Mobile SPGH system have better survivability than static guns, though even static guns are always moving, Not fast as SPGH though..

 

[Bhadra]

Cant say for sure, These vehicles are meant to be in same performance range as tatra..



Lesser than others..

1. These trucks will carry 52cal guns which ranges 40-70kms with modern ammo, far behind borders..

2. These Trucks are mobile, WLR can detect incoming shells which determine location of arty fire by the time it react these are far..

3. When in a WLR atmosphere on both sides these system are separated by distance..

Mobile SPGH system have better survivability than static guns, though even static guns are always moving, Not fast as SPGH though..

you mean to say FEBA for guns will remain separated by 30 to 40 km and these guns will never come close to each other by ten km. Counter battery fires can be directed even when guns are 30 km away by mediums and specially by 155 calibre. Para Commando had raided a gun position of Pakistan which was 15 - 20 km inside Pakistan !!

I was wondering about the size of targets these present rather than mobility. Greater septation between guns means larger area occupied and larger chances of being hit.

Secondly what are the chances of these guns being dismounted and then being towed in mountains? Or will these guns be plains specific ? It is better to have flexibility rather than getting stuck with one sector.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

you mean to say FEBA for guns will remain separated by 30 to 40 km and these guns will never come close to each other by ten km. Counter battery fires can be directed even when guns are 30 km away by mediums and specially by 155 calibre. Para Commando had raided a gun position of Pakistan which was 15 - 20 km inside Pakistan !!I was wondering about the size of targets these present rather than mobility. Greater septation between guns means larger area occupied and larger chances of being hit.Secondly what are the chances of these guns being dismounted and then being towed in mountains? Or will these guns be plains specific ? It is better to have flexibility rather than getting stuck with one sector.

You don't need these SPGH to be that close to conflict area as there range is more than 40kms, In less than 10kms area mortars play there part, In a War they have to be that close less than 10kms the area is covered by Infantry and other units, there are chances out 100 in one that an large ambush can disable such force that deep, Just like our para commando raided PAK arty placements..

Counter battery work with WLR and ground informants, Once position are reported via WLR it takes time at least 60sec to 90sec for a 155mm reach ranges of 15-40kms, enough for SPGH to shoot and run from harms way....

Separation of 200 to 500ms or even more between two systems, You need that kind of fire power to such a large area which is not possible...

These truck mounted systems are mobile more or less as stallion trucks in IA, One cannot dismount it..

 

[Bhadra]

You don't need these SPGH to be that close to conflict area as there range is more than 40kms, In less than 10kms area mortars play there part, In a War they have to be that close less than 10kms the area is covered by Infantry and other units, there are chances out 100 in one that an large ambush can disable such force that deep, Just like our para commando raided PAK arty placements..

Counter battery work with WLR and ground informants, Once position are reported via WLR it takes time at least 60sec to 90sec for a 155mm reach ranges of 15-40kms, enough for SPGH to shoot and run from harms way....

Separation of 200 to 500ms or even more between two systems, You need that kind of fire power to such a large area which is not possible...

These truck mounted systems are mobile more or less as stallion trucks in IA, One cannot dismount it..

Kunal, when the battle progresses, the distance keeps decreasing so much so that everything may get mingled necessitating gunners to wield their rammers rather than guns. Specially the mobile battles where one may suddenly find enemy tanks and infantry behind you or in front. Imagine an UAV targetting a three meter target as compared to a ten by ten target.

No one scoots after firing one round. One or two salvo of Katyushka or Grad / Smerch or Brahmos would the end of the battery and vehicles. In towed system the vehicle are not part of the guns while firing. But here the guns are no guns without that huge vehicle.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal, when the battle progresses, the distance keeps decreasing so much so that everything may get mingled necessitating gunners to wield their rammers rather than guns. Specially the mobile battles where one may suddenly find enemy tanks and infantry behind you or in front. Imagine an UAV targetting a three meter target as compared to a ten by ten target.

No one scoots after firing one round. One or two salvo of Katyushka or Grad / Smerch or Brahmos would the end of the battery and vehicles. In towed system the vehicle are not part of the guns while firing. But here the guns are no guns without that huge vehicle.

It does decrease but not all the systems goes that close, In presence of enemy tanks these systems are protected by Our tanks even far behind..

In case of enemy air one deploy Air defense, How many rounds and time for scoot depends on situation...



Giving one deploy Large scale forces in short time against a smaller accurate mobile force is highly unlikely as they make themselves a huge target for others in the area..

 

[Bhadra]

It does decrease but not all the systems goes that close, In presence of enemy tanks these systems are protected by Our tanks even far behind..

In case of enemy air one deploy Air defense, How many rounds and time for scoot depends on situation...



Giving one deploy Large scale forces in short time against a smaller accurate mobile force is highly unlikely as they make themselves a huge target for others in the area..

Agreed Kunal,

But if that is the case then why does one required Tanked artillary?
One requires Tank type artillary to be protected aginst the tanks and Mechanises Infantry fire, anti Tank fire and be able to work under NBC enviroment.
The other reaosn is to attain the maching mobility with Tank and mechanised columns. That mobility can be achived by other means such as motorised Guns such as shown by you. But these are not truely SPG.
You may therefore reconsider your assumptions and arguments. Self Propelled artillary is to be mobile and be protected as good as tanks against all forms of enemy attacks including nuclear attacks. Motorised guns do not provided that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Agreed Kunal,

But if that is the case then why does one required Tanked artillary? One requires Tank type artillary to be protected aginst the tanks and Mechanises Infantry fire, anti Tank fire and be able to work under NBC enviroment.The other reaosn is to attain the maching mobility with Tank and mechanised columns. That mobility can be achived by other means such as motorised Guns such as shown by you. But these are not truely SPG.You may therefore reconsider your assumptions and arguments. Self Propelled artillary is to be mobile and be protected as good as tanks against all forms of enemy attacks including nuclear attacks. Motorised guns do not provided that.

One cannot compare a sub-machine gun with a long barrel Rifle, Both are meant to kill enemy yet they are different as per there requirement and environment..

Same goes for Mounted Gun SPGH and a Armour SPGH and a tracked armored SPGH, India is vast with many kind of terrains, so does SPGH comes with different kinds..

 

[Bhadra]

One cannot compare a sub-machine gun with a long barrel Rifle, Both are meant to kill enemy yet they are different as per there requirement and environment..

Same goes for Mounted Gun SPGH and a Armour SPGH and a tracked armored SPGH, India is vast with many kind of terrains, so does SPGH comes with different kinds..

Not correct arguments. The simplest thing is that if a gun has to support armour operation or mechanised operations, it is better that the gun system is self propelled and self protected. OK.
If the terrain is easy and has good road network, it is better that the guns supporting other than mechanised operation is Motorised as towed system imposes some delays.
Simple tamplet.

But our country is neither NATO nor western Europe.
Thirdly, 52 calibre is a bit longer and one would not be able to deploy 52 calibre length everywhere in mountains, even if it is a howitzer. It occupies larger deployment space. M777 is another ball game due to their portability.
Let me see one deploying a Motorised 155 /52 on Jawahar Lal Nehru National Highway on the way to Nathu La from Gangtok.
Evberything Western is not hunky dory.

Go Travel:

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