Indian Army Artillery

[Damian]

Konstrukta SPH had a big fail during presentation, barrel exploded.

It seems that low barrel quality is still a problem for Konstrukta, my country had the similiar problems with 2A46MS guns barrels for our PT-91 tanks. 2A46MS had such bad quality that gun was very innacurate, and it's life was very short, sometimes when specialists from Land Forces messured guns calliber, they were 127mm not 125mm!

 

[asianobserve]

How about this option: BAE Systems M777 Portee

 

[Ray]

All equipment looks good in the glossies.

Their value is discovered in the User Trials and the Technical Trials.

And then starts the considerations of the Govt!

These considerations are important and can overrule the Trials!

 

[Galaxy]

The Indian Army has failed to induct a single 155mm howitzer since 1987

24 Years and no new induction. Pathetic condition.

 

[SPIEZ]

How about this option: BAE Systems M777 Portee

I think we are in the final stages of procuring an aerial version of it!

 

[Payeng]

How about this option: BAE Systems M777 Portee

What are the advantages of such a system?

 

[SPIEZ]

What are the advantages of such a system?

Low cost area defense, used conflicted zones to keep out the enemy!!! And longer range too

 

[asianobserve]

Portee Artillery Support vehicle
Portee Artillery Support vehicle

Portee is comprised of a 155mm/39 calibre M777 towed lightweight artillery system and a purpose-built portee 8x6 version of the Supacat high mobility cross country vehicle. The gun is carried on the rear of the vehicle. The Supacat's High Mobile Truck (HMT) family is entering service with US and British forces in a two and three axels configurations.

M777 is already in low rate initial production for the US Marine Corps. With additional orders from the US Army and National Guards the total US bound production of M777 is expected to top 600 guns.

In the traveling mode the M777 is carried in the rear part of the chassis, while the ammunition is stowed at the front, between the armored, NBC protected split cab. On reaching the combat area the howitzer is quickly dismounted an onboard mechanical handling system, allowing it to be towed rapidly into and out of action and up to 3 ammunition containers can be carried in its place allowing a total of over 70 readily available rounds.

Equipped with a fully integrated digital fire control system the M777 howitzer can be brought into action in less than one minute, and moved to an alternative firing position in less than three minutes. Portee was privately developed at BAE Systems in an anticipation of future British Army requirements for up to 45 Lightweight Mobile Artillery Weapon System – Gun (LIMAWS (Gun). In a series of tests, Portee fired over 350 rounds demonstrating its flexibility as a medium weight, highly mobile artillery system. The main advantage of Portee is the fact that the unit can be split into two loads slung under a transport helicopter. The complete M777 Portee System weighs about 12.3 tons and can be carried inside a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft. The British Army evaluates other alternatives, including Giat Industries CAESAR 155mm/52 calibre system based on a 6x6 truck chassis, and the standard 155mm M777 lightweight artillery system.


If the IA has intentions to purchase M777 lightweight howitzers then the BAE Systems Portee will be a practical option as wheeled artillery system. This will maximise commonality, streamline training and logistics.

 

[Zebra]

M777 Portee System ( towed ) , Video

 

[Zebra]

If India can buy 155mm artillery from BAE Systems bcz of US Government's FMS deal .

Than why can't they try Government to Government deal with Sweden ( BAE-Bofors ) and France ( Caesar ) .

 

[SPIEZ]

If India can buy 155mm artillery from BAE Systems bcz of US Government's FMS deal .

Than why can't they try Government to Government deal with Sweden ( BAE-Bofors ) and France ( Caesar ) .

They are going for the M777 BAE because its Ultra light and can be carried both by helicopters and Aircrafts. The CAESAR and BOFORS FH77 don't fit into that category!

 

[Zebra]

They are going for the M777 BAE because its Ultra light and can be carried both by helicopters and Aircrafts. The CAESAR and BOFORS FH77 don't fit into that category!

What I am saying is a 155 mm howtizer , what ever category .

The way India buy these ultra light guns ( carried by helicopters / aircrafts ) , can't buy other towed and wheeled also ?

 

[Rage]

Oh, this is just precious.

After the howitzer burst during the trials last year, a Defence Ministry committee concluded the guns offered by Rheinmetall and Konstrukta are prototypes that are not in use even in their home countries.

They decided that, after the trials. How much more farcical are we going to get?

Now, in a few years they're going to want DRDO's ARDL to develop in indigenous system and in a few years from that they'll want another tender issued to global players. C'est la vie!

 

[SPIEZ]

What I am saying is a 155 mm howtizer , what ever category .

The way India buy these ultra light guns ( carried by helicopters / aircrafts ) , can't buy other towed and wheeled also ?

I don't think so! the M777 also falls underthe 155mm Artillery FYI !

 

[Naren1987]

Oh, this is just precious.




They decided that, after the trials. How much more farcical are we going to get?

Now, in a few years they're going to want DRDO's ARDL to develop in indigenous system and in a few years from that they'll want another tender issued to global players. C'est la vie!

They did it with the Mig-35 as well.
They have, but I'm ready to bet a years pay that ARDE won't deliver the first piece(substandard compared to NATO standards) before 2018.
And even the manufacturing will take another generation.

 

[Singh]

NOTHING wheels can do tracks can't do better; a lot things tracks can do wheels CAN'T DO AT ALL

sir iirc tracked are heavier, less nimbler and have higher psi than wheeled. For mountainous terrain wheeled would be preferred over tracked ?

 

[pmaitra]

sir iirc tracked are heavier and have higher psi than wheeled. For mountainous terrain wheeled would be preferred over tracked ?

I beg to disagree.

Pressure is force (mass times acceleration due to gravity) per unit area. Tracked vehicles have more surface area than wheels. If the weights of a wheeled vehicle and tracked vehicle were same, the pressure would be less for the tracked vehicle. Also, gravity is less up in the mountains, but that is trivial.

This is the rationale for BTR-T moving over to tracked locomotion over the previous BTRs.

 

[Singh]

I beg to disagree.

Pressure is force (mass times acceleration due to gravity) per unit area. Tracked vehicles have more surface area than wheels. If the weights of a wheeled vehicle and tracked vehicle were same, the pressure would be less for the tracked vehicle. Also, gravity is less up in the mountains, but that is trivial.

I should probably rephrase tracked vehicles are heavier ergo(instead of and) have higher psi. They will need to be used extensively in Thar, and in Himalayas.
I have seen what tracked vehicles do to normal Indian roads, it ain't pretty.

This is the rationale for BTR-T moving over to tracked locomotion over the previous BTRs.

I am theorizing.
1. BTR/BTR-T and SPA are different classes of vehicles for different purposes.
2. BTR needs better survivability, for us SPA needs better mobility.

 

[pmaitra]

I should probably rephrase tracked vehicles are heavier ergo(instead of and) have higher psi. They will need to be used extensively in Thar, and in Himalayas.
I have seen what tracked vehicles do to normal Indian roads, it ain't pretty.



I am theorizing.
1. BTR/BTR-T and SPA are different classes of vehicles for different purposes.
2. BTR needs better survivability, for us SPA needs better mobility.

Yes, that is true. Tracked vehicles tend to be heavier. Some of these wheeled howitzers could be light but then some of them are pretty large for 155mm guns and I would rather have those big machines on tracks than on wheels. Also, thinking of mountains, we cannot drive them too fast. Speed is one advantage on wheeled vehicles, but that is negated in the hills anyway.

 

[Sridhar]

Stuck in the Stack

Indian Artillery marred by the S factor, stagnation and scandal

By Lt Gen. B.S. Pawar (retd)

The Bofor's bogey continues to haunt the modernisation plans of the Indian artillery especially the acquisition of 155mm howitzers for almost a quarter of century. The modernisation process continues to stagnate for various reasons, some beyond the control of the army. This is largely attributable to different scandals continuing to stymie the long delayed acquisition of the 155mm howitzers, despite the lessons learnt during the Kargil conflict of 1999, where artillery fire power had undeniably paved the way for victory. The last major acquisition of guns was that of 400 places of 155mm/39 calibre FH 77B, howitzers from Bofors of Sweden with a range of 30 km in the mid-eighties. Today, most of the guns held in the inventory of artillery are either obsolescent or reaching obsolescence. While the Russian origin 122mmD30 towed howitzer mainly deployed in the plains is already obsolete, the 105mm Indian field gun (1FG), the mainstay of the artillery and in service for the last three decades is nearing obsolescence. Furthermore its limited range of 17 km is almost irrelevant in a future battlefield environment where guns with 30-40 km range would be the need of the hour. Most of the armies in the world are today even looking at Mortars with enhanced ranges of 12-14 km. The FH 77B (Bofors) guns bought in 1986 are almost down to approximately half the numbers due to non-availability of spares and cannabalisation. The only silver lining in this dismal gun acquisition saga is the successful upgrade of 180 pieces of 130 mm/39 calibre M46 Russian guns to 155mm/45 calibre with the ordinance and kits supplied by Soltam of Israel. Despite its initial teething problems, this has been a successful venture giving an enhanced range of 39 km from its original 26 km.

Modernisation Status The artillery's modernisation pargramme includes purchase and manufacture of towed, mounted and ultra-light howitzers as well as self-propelled artillery both tracked and wheeled, multi-barrel rocket launchers, missiles, surveillance and counter bombardment equipment and important of all — the ammunition and communication equipment. However, my thrust would be on status of guns/howitzers, the main problem area in the modernisation process. Towed Gun: The Rs 8000 crore project was to buy 400 numbers of 155mm/52 calibre towed artillery guns, to be followed by indigenous manufacture of another, 1,180 howitzers for 79 artillery regiments. This will form the core of the artillery inventory replacing the 105mm 1FG and the 122mm guns. As is known, four rounds of trials conducted earlier came to a naught in 2007. Fresh tenders have been floated since then but the trials are yet to commence Mounted Gun Systems: This project involves off-the-shelf purchase of 200 numbers of 155mm/52 calibre guns, followed by indigenous manufacture of another 614 mounted gun systems for arming 40 regiments. In this case even the global tender has not been floated so far. Available in the world market are Sweden's Archer, French Ceaser, Bosnia's Unis gun systems and South Africa's Denel (presently blacklisted). Self Propelled (SP) Guns (Tracked & Wheeled): This is the weakest link in the artillery inventory today. There is no worthwhile equipment held in this category. The trials for the tracked 155m/52 calibre SP guns also came to a naught due to blacklisting of Denel. Fresh tenders have been issued but trials are yet to commence. Requirement is of 100 numbers of 155mm/52 calibre tracked SP guns for five regiments. However, as per reports, the trials for wheeled SP guns (155m/52 calibre) have been completed. Plan is to induct 180 wheeled SP guns to equip nine regiments for plains and semi-desert terrain. In fray are the Germany's Rheinmetall Defence and Slovakia's Konstrukta Defence. If all goes well the selected gun should commence induction by end of this year. Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH): Requirement is to buy 145 light weight howitzers, 155 mm/39 calibre for deployment in areas which are not easily accessible and for out of area contingencies in the neighbourhood to equip seven regiments. While the bore was kept to 155mm for commonality with other 155 mm guns being acquired the calibre selected was 39, to keep the gun light enabling transportation by heavy lift helicopters as well as transport aircraft. Initially, in fray were the Singapore technologies Pegasus light weight howitzer and BAE Systems' M777 light weight howitzer. The blacklisting of Singapore Technologies by the Indian Government in July 2009 left the field open to BAEs M777. The same is now being acquired under the foreign military sales (FMS) route. The recent leak of the field trails report listing some shortcomings of the gun is again a set back. However, the M777 is a proven gun and the FMS route should ensure its timely induction. In fact, the process for acquisition of heavy lift helicopters (American Chinook and Russian MI-26) for transportation of these guns is already underway by the air force.

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