Indian Army Artillery

[Bhadra]

au contraire my dear friend the barrel is an important part of MRSI as the barrel has to take the stress of rapidly firing a number of rounds in quick succession so that they all impact on the target at the same time, also the computerised motorised hydrualics that enable the barrel to be traversed rapidly to differnet angles enabling the same Time of flight of shells fired in succesion are also a part of it.these are both things the M-46 Metamorphosis currently lacks.
aslo the 105mm SPH also lacks all that DRDO plans to provide it but all these plans have yet to see fruition.

Strange that the DRDO guys would give you that story because the story i got at the very same show was that we were looking at integrating a completely new weapons package onto the Bhim chassis, names given included the Korean K9 Thunder , the singaporean SSPH1 and an Indian up gunned variant of the Polish KRAB turret(which is itself a version of the British AS90 turret), the PZH2000 turret was also mentioned, however i believ all those plans have since come to naught.

The biggest problem with DRDO is that they are armchair strategician and incompetent scientists. They think that they know much better than the user and his requirements. Having failed as salesmen, they have turned into lobbyists and balckmaillers. At best accusers and propagandist accusing others of desiring "foreign mal". Least do they realise that their promises and failures has led down the country and the Forces mare than tolerable. They wish to lay down how the forces should conduct operation and what should they require in terms of equipment as per the useless capabilities of DRDO rather than keeping in view least international standards.

DRDO guys are good for photo ops and ppt presentations only.

 

[Bhadra]

Why 155/52 ?

Requirement for 155mm/52-clibere guns has been motivated by four main considerations.

The need to deal effectively with heavily reinforced concrete fortifications that form part of Pakistan's linear defences. Experience since 1971 shows that the successful engagement of hardened defences is possible only with heavier caliber shells with high terminal velocities.
Restrictions imposed by political considerations may limit the Army's ability to strike well behind enemy lines. In such a scenario, long range artillery offers the best tool for engaging enemy logistical and command nodes at extreme ranges. Kargil has also demonstrated the importance of engaging hardened targets with precision in order to inflict meaningful damage. Therefore a guided munitions capability has become indispensable for tube artillery. Recent purchases of several thousand rounds of 155mm guided rounds from Krasnapol in Russia is indicative of the Army's desire to retain tactical flexibility in the face of non-military constraints, economically augment the Indian Air Force's PGM capability and free itself from excessive dependence on air support.
The expansion of mechanized forces within the armies of India and Pakistan has underscored the need for large caliber artillery systems with higher rates of fire and greater mobility. With the mothballing of the Army's Catapult and Abbot systems, the Army is without self-propelled guns for its mechanized formations.
The determination to reduce the logistical complexities of operating guns of 14 different calibers is pushing the artillery to standardize on around a single caliber. Although such a programme has been on the cards a long time, the recent conflict in Kargil has provided added impetus to it.

[Bharat Rakshak]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

au contraire my dear friend the barrel is an important part of MRSI as the barrel has to take the stress of rapidly firing a number of rounds in quick succession so that they all impact on the target at the same time, also the computerised motorised hydrualics that enable the barrel to be traversed rapidly to differnet angles enabling the same Time of flight of shells fired in succesion are also a part of it.these are both things the M-46 Metamorphosis currently lacks.
aslo the 105mm SPH also lacks all that DRDO plans to provide it but all these plans have yet to see fruition.

Strange that the DRDO guys would give you that story because the story i got at the very same show was that we were looking at integrating a completely new weapons package onto the Bhim chassis, names given included the Korean K9 Thunder , the singaporean SSPH1 and an Indian upgunned variant of the Polish KRAB turret(which is itself a version of the British AS90 turret), the PZH2000 turret was also mentioned, however i believ all those plans have since come to naught.

Of-course, After all the barrel is one of the main part of the whole system, The barrel in MRSI or in Intense fire mode manual or auto deign to take stress, Now its OFB or Denel or any its remain same..

As i know from source T-6 turret have all the sub system except the barrel, And i am not talking abt Metamorphosis system as whole from beginning But the barrel thats why i also posted the pic of FH-77 with OFB 155mm/45cal barrel, What i am saying is to install the barrel in T-6 turret and catapult which is something needed to be done long back..


There are number of things and posibilities they told, One what i was told is " Denel is ban, as soon as it lift off the work will begin, T-6 turret is only without 52cal barrel " Other possibility are as you told..

 

[bengalraider]

The Entire T-6 turret with or without the gun is an intellectual property of the DENEL corp, we cannot modify it without their written consent . That again brings to us a catch 22 situation as in order to get consent we would have to deal with DENEL which is banned!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Entire T-6 turret with or without the gun is an intellectual property of the DENEL corp, we cannot modify it without their written consent . That again brings to us a catch 22 situation as in order to get consent we would have to deal with DENEL which is banned!

Legally very true, And it is 100% right..

Though in time their were exception cases like MGL and Vidhavanshak anti-material rifle..

Army is dying without guns, casualty will be for front-line Infantry, What best for nation and people`s security should be adress at at any cost, Its something we have done before, This is what needed to be done long time back..


Again i am 100% agree with your comment..

 

[bengalraider]

The 155mm/45cal barrel is tested and Orders are to upgrade all FH-77 in IA..

Presently more than 200 M46 of 130mm/46 caliber update with 155MM/45cal..

And More are in the line..

these are actually examples of guns that have been upgraded with the Israeli SOLTAM kit,the OFB metamorphosis kit uses a different design in the muzzle brake .

 

[bengalraider]

Legally very true, And it is 100% right..

Though in time their were exception cases like MGL and Vidhavanshak anti-material rifle..

Army is dying without guns, casualty will be for front-line Infantry, What best for nation and people`s security should be adress at at any cost, Its something we have done before, This is what needed to be done long time back..


Again i am 100% agree with your comment..

Unbanning DENEL, STtech , Rhenmetall and others and allowing them to enter inJV with indian industry to mordenise our military is what will really be best for the nation's and people`s security

 

[Kunal Biswas]

these are actually examples of guns that have been upgraded with the Israeli SOLTAM kit,the OFB metamorphosis kit uses a different design in the muzzle brake .

No these are not soltam but OFB first kits available, The rest have modified breech loading and different muzzle braker, I posted operational OFB guns few pages back..

But the point is 155mm/45cal is available and have a good range and equally rugged as any other barrel of 52 cal, In absence of 52cal since 80s these is the universal solution..

Unbanning DENEL, STtech , Rhenmetall and others and allowing them to enter inJV with indian industry to mordenise our military is what will really be best for the nation's and people`s security

Thats not in Army hands or OFB but MOD and laws..

What is in hand and can be explore is the present tech of 155mm/45cal opeartional gun barrel which is good enough with innovative and improvise mindset..

 

[Zebra]

I think now only one way left , buy few different types of 155mm guns like 50 each , use them .
While using them IA will know which one suits them . As soon as they judge couple of them , just buy them in good numbers .

 

[Bhadra]

No these are not soltam but OFB first kits available, The rest have modified breech loading and different muzzle braker, I posted operational OFB guns few pages back..

But the point is 155mm/45cal is available and have a good range and equally rugged as any other barrel of 52 cal, In absence of 52cal since 80s these is the universal solution..



Thats not in Army hands or OFB but MOD and laws..

What is in hand and can be explore is the present tech of 155mm/45cal operational gun barrel which is good enough with innovative and improvise mindset..

That is a seller and shopkeeper's view point. Not the user's view point or user requirements. They have a reason for 52 cal length which is easily available in the market. DRDO should not then force 45 cal down their throat since they are incompetent to produce one. Produce 155 / 52 cal. The product should be consumer driven and not based on manufacturer's incompetency. Incompetency transferred to war fighting is dangerous.

IA has a face a particular battle field environment and has its doctrine to cope up with an environment. They want 52 cal, so either produce 155 52 or get to one side. Why harp on 45 calibre. These QR exist for last fifteen years. there is no reason to change the same except to keep an incompetent shop running. That is no good reason.

 

[nitesh]

That is a seller and shopkeeper's view point. Not the user's view point or user requirements. They have a reason for 52 cal length which is easily available in the market. DRDO should not then force 45 cal down their throat since they are incompetent to produce one. Produce 155 / 52 cal. The product should be consumer driven and not based on manufacturer's incompetency. Incompetency transferred to war fighting is dangerous.

IA has a face a particular battle field environment and has its doctrine to cope up with an environment. They want 52 cal, so either produce 155 52 or get to one side. Why harp on 45 calibre. These QR exist for last fifteen years. there is no reason to change the same except to keep an incompetent shop running. That is no good reason.

This is interesting, when did IA put the requirement to develop a gun? I never came across that. Can you please point out the source to your claims

 

[SPIEZ]

Bhadra is new here, why don't we tell how it's done.

DRDO develops, army rejects.

Also in the above post you should understand that you are actually talking with customer and not the shopkeeper.

 

[nitesh]

Bhadra is new here, why don't we tell how it's done.

DRDO develops, army rejects.

Also in the above post you should understand that you are actually talking with customer and not the shopkeeper.

I didn't got you, what you are trying to convey

 

[SPIEZ]

Our friend bandra had posted this.

That is a seller and shopkeeper's view point. Not the user's view point or user requirements. They have a reason for 52 cal length which is easily available in the market. DRDO should not then force 45 cal down their throat since they are incompetent to produce one. Produce 155 / 52 cal. The product should be consumer driven and not based on manufacturer's incompetency. Incompetency transferred to war fighting is dangerous.

IA has a face a particular battle field environment and has its doctrine to cope up with an environment. They want 52 cal, so either produce 155 52 or get to one side. Why harp on 45 calibre. These QR exist for last fifteen years. there is no reason to change the same except to keep an incompetent shop running. That is no good reason.

I didn't got you, what you are trying to convey

I was trying to actually tell him that DRDO does not stuff down the necks of the soldiers.

And also that Kunal sir belongs to the army AFAIK.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I persoanlly think in these condtion where their is no guns & tanks purchased even if they gone through test and produced and then inducted, It takes lots of Time..

RFI response time + Tests time + selection time + tot and other paper work time + production time + induction time = Lots of time consumed in the process..

The best at the moment to arm these forces with what we can offer, i.e 105mm IFG & 155mm/45cal guns with 155mm /45cal catapult SPGH, BMP-tank & 105mm BMP SPGH..

When New weapon inducted these will be replaced batch after batch and will be used in reserve or deployed in other sectors..

And also that Kunal sir belongs to the army AFAIK.

It doesn't matter, but what the logic here, I don't see any flaw in it..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Operational OFB 155mm / 45cal in Indian army..

The last one was posted by me on Net..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nexter also showed a new artillery system:

Nexter also showed a new artillery system: the French company, leveraging its Caesar truck mounted artillery system, developed the Trajan towed howitzer that uses the same oscillating mass, loading and aiming subsystems. The carriage is closely derived from that of the TR-F1 155/40 mm howitzer in use in the French Army. The new artillery system, aimed at the Indian bid, can reach 42 km using Base Bleed ERFB ammunition and 55 km with RAP rounds thanks to the 155/52 mm ordnance. Thanks to the hydraulically operated automatic loading and ramming systems the Trajan can reach a 6 rounds per minute rate of fire.




http://www.esdpa.org/2011/09/crisis-...national-dsei/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

DRDO`s 155mm shells:

155 mm Shell HE 107

155 mm SHELL HEER

155 mm SHELL SMOKE ER 24KM

SHELL 155 mm ILLUMINATING MIRA

SHELL 155 mm HE

SHELL 155 MM ILLUMINATING ERFB

SHELL 155 MM SCREENING SMOKE BE M2A2

155 mm HE ERFB BB

155 mm EXTENDED RANGE CARGO PROJECTILE

155 mm HE-ER BASE BLEED PROJECTILE



Credit: @ Rahul Singh

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[sathya]

India developing indigenous artillery guns

NEW DELHI (PTI): With the army failing to induct new artillery guns in the last 25 years, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has started developing an indigenous 155mm 52 calibre howitzer for the armed forces.

"Armament Research and Development Establishment (DRDO's lab) in Pune is working on developing indigenous artillery guns," DRDO chief V K Saraswat told reporters here.

He said the work on these guns has been on for quite some time now but the agency was "lying low" and focusing on other programmes.

"The laboratory is working on advanced metallurgy for the barrels of the howitzer and is looking at an increased rate of fire in it. We are hoping to complete the development in another four years time," the DRDO chief said.

Asked if there was any specific request from the armed forces to produce the guns, a senior DRDO official said after the Bofors gun deal in 1986, no gun has been inducted in service and it was felt that the Army would need such a gun.

DRDO had earlier developed the 105 mm field artillery guns for the Army and is still in operational service.

DRDO had started working on the development of the Bhim self-propelled howitzer about a decade back but the project was virtually scrapped after South African firm Denel was blacklisted by the ministry.

Despite several attempts, cancellation of tenders due to various reasons has not allowed the army to induct any new artillery gun in the last 25 years after the controversy surrounding the Bofors guns snow-balled into a big political issue.

Talking about the developments in the advanced version of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) programme, he said, "We are looking to test-fire a missile from its canon and demonstrate that capability by next year."