Indian Army Artillery

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
674
Likes
1,748
Country flag
or

Maybe armed forces want complete their procurement cycles as fast as they can, within available options in the prevailing circumstances.

If BJP doesn’t get elected next term, there will be no procurement later anyways. procurement files will go back to their old habits of running round and round the office buildings while taking long stops at each office.

people forget that pre-2014 raj Babbar once closed a parliamentary committee on defence meeting because he was to catch a flight.
Even if this is the reason Arm forces should focus on self-reliance for the long term. Ask govt to change policies But all Armed forces can do is Import and import.

Now I understand why General Naravane talk rubbish whenever he goes to Laddakh because he wants to put pressure on govt for more imports
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
19,971
Likes
75,287
Country flag
Even if this is the reason Arm forces should focus on self-reliance for the long term. Ask govt to change policies But all Armed forces can do is Import and import.

Now I understand why General Naravane talk rubbish whenever he goes to Laddakh because he wants to put pressure on govt for more imports
you are blaming the chief based on “The Print” article, do a google search for news on “Dhanush Artillery” you will see a pattern.
 

THESIS THORON

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
644
Likes
2,895
Country flag
Of course, Total guns delivered are more than 60
NO how can guns delivered be 60??

in 2019 6 guns were given to army
Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 2.57.47 PM.png



Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 2.59.29 PM.png


Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 3.01.09 PM.png



in 2020 8 guns were to be delivered but lets say 10 guns were given

then in 2021 the production capacity was to be inc to 50 guns per year. This means 50 guns will be delivered at year end, but chinki virus wave came.

So how did you come to this conclusion that 60 guns have been delivered???

article link

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...tion-of-dhanush-guns/articleshow/76718995.cms
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
19,971
Likes
75,287
Country flag
If IA is so innocent then they must come out and clear the issue. This all dramebazi and fake news comes with due consent from the Armed forces.
why don’t you file an RTI, if you are so worried about procurement.
if RTI is not applicable,then wait for the forces to let you know when they think it is appropriate to share such information.
Your unconfirmed assumptions are not an excuse to badmouth the chief. Chief is not an elected representative, his accountability is to the president of India not you and me.

note : not sure if this subject comes under RTI or not.
 

vishnugupt

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
674
Likes
1,748
Country flag
why don’t you file an RTI, if you are so worried about procurement.
if RTI is not applicable,then wait for the forces to let you know when they think it is appropriate to share such information.
Your unconfirmed assumptions are not an excuse to badmouth the chief.

note : not sure if this subject comes under RTI or not.
I'm not badmouthing. I am saying what the chief is doing. import, Import, Import. The army imports 90% of its equipment according to the latest data. These are not good traits of any institution.
Our generals must be questioned " Every time China or Pakistan comes to the border Our Armed forces run for emergency procurement rather than retaliation. They must ask why they always found insufficient whenever the need comes.

I was a great admirer of these generals but later I realized my blind admiration only causing more harm rather than any good. Tell me plz who suffers the most due to these inadequacies?? of course, foot soldiers who can't utter a word against these generals.
 

THESIS THORON

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
644
Likes
2,895
Country flag
I'm not badmouthing. I am saying what the chief is doing. import, Import, Import. The army imports 90% of its equipment according to the latest data. These are not good traits of any institution.
Our generals must be questioned " Every time China or Pakistan comes to the border Our Armed forces run for emergency procurement rather than retaliation. They must ask why they always found insufficient whenever the need comes.

I was a great admirer of these generals but later I realized my blind admiration only causing more harm rather than any good. Tell me plz who suffers the most due to these inadequacies?? of course, foot soldiers who can't utter a word against these generals.
HOW DID YOU COME AT MAGICAL NO OF 60 GUNS??
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
19,971
Likes
75,287
Country flag
I'm not badmouthing. I am saying what the chief is doing. import, Import, Import. The army imports 90% of its equipment according to the latest data. These are not good traits of any institution.
Our generals must be questioned " Every time China or Pakistan comes to the border Our Armed forces run for emergency procurement rather than retaliation. They must ask why they always found insufficient whenever the need comes.

I was a great admirer of these generals but later I realized my blind admiration only causing more harm rather than any good. Tell me plz who suffers the most due to these inadequacies?? of course, foot soldiers who can't utter a word against these generals.
emergency procurements are for the ammunition not weapon systems.

it’s the adversary who decides the time place and scale of the attack, India responds.

it doesn’t look like 90% is imported, going by the data I have compiled.


I am not getting into your personal opinions.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
534
Likes
1,459
Country flag
What happened to the Bharat 52? If the ATAGS is a bottleneck due to testing and price and OFB production has not stabilised for the Dhanush, then wtf is the Bharat 52 for?
 

Fire and groove

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
140
Likes
373
Country flag
If IA is so innocent then they must come out and clear the issue. This all dramebazi and fake news comes with due consent from the Armed forces.
That isn't very productive. If it comes down to that, we'll be clearing misinformation all damn day. It isn't like Indian media is a paragon of media integrity by any stretch to begin with.
 

samsaptaka

तस्मात् उत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिष्चय
Regular Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
743
Likes
2,241
Country flag
DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’
New Delhi:
Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.

They added that the validation trials at high altitude areas, including mobility trials in hilly and mountainous terrain have been completed.


The ATAGS is part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. According to this plan, the Army is supposed to have a different kinds of artillery, including the towed system, which is meant to be a 155mm x 52 caliber.

With the global procurement plans for a towed gun faltering despite multiple attempts, the project for ATAGS was rolled out by the DRDO around 2010.

The ATAGS, which is being developed by the DRDO with the two private firms, fired for the first time in a fully integrated model in 2016.




This development came even as the Army has been pursuing a separate process for procurement of towed guns from abroad under the ‘Make In India’ initiative.

The gun that has finally emerged as the lowest bidder for this process was the ATHOS of the Israeli firm Elbit, in 2019.

The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of another 1,180 guns by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

However, the Army has changed its plans and is now eyeing to only procure 400 of the ATHOS, but the DRDO is objecting even to this and says the ATAGS is better and is the weapon of the future.

A final decision on ATHOS is still pending as reported on 28 May.

Army’s concern and comparison
Defence sources said that the development of ATAGS has been completed and is presently under PSQR (Weapons procurement and qualitative requirements) trials to finalise the final configuration of the gun system.


However, the Army has a “few issues of concern”.

Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain.
The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.

Those advocating for the ATAGS say that if the weight is indeed an issue, other systems like the Dhanush gun can be used for the mountains besides the lightweight howitzers along with the indigenous towed system.

“Not all guns have to operate in the same way across all terrains. In tanks, we have the T-90 and T-72 which can operate easily in the mountains and can also be airlifted there. But we also have the Arjun, which cannot operate in the same way it would in desert areas,” a defence expert, who did not wish to be identified, said.

ATAGS programme sources said the self-propelled mobility of this system is high and it is capable of crossing all Indian bridges and terrain.

They also said that the in weight category it is comparable with other comparable gun systems in the world.

Industry sources said that the most significant achievement during the second phase of PSQR Winter Trials was moving the guns to the Northern-most point of operational area (Lukrep) in the Plateau areas of North Sikkim.

The movement was undertaken mostly during the hours of darkness to facilitate undisturbed movement of tourists and civilian vehicles and at the same time maintain confidentiality of the gun system with our adversaries.

They said that ATAGS (Bharat Forge) has demonstrated efficient towed movement in the treacherous terrain climbing altitudes up to 15,500 ft.

“Movement to Lukrep meant covering 341 kilometres and was tested over 10 days. ATAGS could negotiate the otherwise un-accessible mountainous terrain with steep gradient and narrow Hair-Pin Bends with ease, without needing to unhook the Gun from the Tower. In similar terrain, other systems need to be unhooked and moved in self-propelled mode, thereby increasing the overall travel time,” a source said.

He added that the total distance traveled by the ATAGS in mountains and high altitude was 526 kms as against 23 Kms mobility test done for foreign guns.

So there cannot be any doubt on the mobility component of the ATAGS. The foreign gun should also be tested at the same location if someone believes that it is better,” the source added.

He added that the the ease with which the Bharat Forge Gun could traverse the complete stretch, stands testimony to the ability of the Guns to move into the remotest of places, in any type of terrain.

Defence sources have also voiced other concerns about the ATAGS, however. A second concern they said is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.

ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.

In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.

The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.

Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.

One area where the ATAGS outguns other systems is the range. The ATAGS’s range with Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition is 35 km and with ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition is 45 km. The ATAGS has actually fired at a range of 47 KMS in 2017.

It is said that when the ATAGS will finally be ordered, both private firms will get orders, but the lowest bidder would get the largest share – 60 per cent or more.

Both guns – Bharat Forge and TATA – have the same performance parameters and the final contract will be awarded based on the cost cited.
Well don't trust our useless media, but our IA top brass are no innocent bunch either. Any other country army would be pushing for ATAGS to quickly iron out the problems and get it into manufacturing, but no sir, here it's like local industry is enemy to IA ! We have some concerns, we have to do x more trials etc...all the time dangling import sword on the Pvt industry ! Shame
 

Aviachha

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Messages
1
Likes
4
Country flag
The 5.5 inch gun is a WW2 piece that equipped medium regiments. Six regiments is quite a lot - and those 6 were in service in 1965. By 1971, the 130mm had supplanted them. If you look at even the ORBAT in the Eastern Theatre during 1971, it was perhaps one full regiment of 5.5 inch guns and maybe three of 130mm M46. Here's a photo of the 7.2 inch BL Howitzer on a Mk.6 chassis. Used by 60 Heavy Regiment.View attachment 17051
Hi. Are you associated to 60 Heavy?
My father served in this unit and saw it transition from Heavy to Field. He's one of the last officers to have served on the gun.
 

Marliii

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2020
Messages
2,119
Likes
9,215
Country flag
More trials lol. How many years has it been at this point.

Never saw them react the same way for the barrel burst of towed US artillery.
That was because of OFBs chatti ammo
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top