Indian Army Artillery

[WolfPack86]

Indian Army deploys K-9 Vajra howitzers in Ladakh for high altitude operations, more orders possible
As Indian Army chief Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane inducted the last of the 100 K-9 Vajra guns ordered, three of these howitzers have been deployed for trials in high altitude mountainous area of Ladakh.

Three guns arrived in Leh yesterday and are being transported to a high altitude base to be tested if they can be used in high altitude areas against the enemy, top government sources told ANI on Thursday.

Based on the performance of the guns, the Indian Army would consider placing orders for two to three additional regiments of the self-propelled howitzers for mountain operations, sources said.

The Army chief has been monitoring the induction and operations of the howitzers produced in the Larsen and Toubro NSE 0.64 % facility in Hazira near Surat in Gujarat.

The Indian Army placed orders for 100 of these guns from a South Korean firm and has been inducting them for the last two years in different regiments of the force.

The K-9 VAJRA is the indigenised version of the basic K9 Thunder from South Korea.

The self-propelled guns have a range of 38 kilometres and are manufactured by Mumbai-based firm Larsen & Toubro in partnership with a South Korean firm.

The Indian Army had not inducted any new heavy artillery since 1986 after the Bofors scandal rocked the nation.

With the induction of the K9 Vajras, Dhanush and M777 ultra-light Howitzers, the army is obtaining new inductions in its inventory. The next made in India howitzer is likely to be inducted in large numbers would be the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO)-developed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) system.

Indian Army deploys K-9 Vajra howitzers in Ladakh for high altitude operations, more orders possible

As Indian Army chief Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane inducted the last of the 100 K-9 Vajra guns ordered, three of these howitzers have been deployed for trials in high altitude mountainous area of Ladakh. Three guns arrived in Leh yesterday and are being transported to a high altitude base to be...

www.defencenews.in

 

[Trololo]

BSF has an artillery wing too. Do you guys think its time we replace their ancient ILFGs and give them Garuda 105 mounted guns? And at some point truck mounted 155mms?

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Defence Updates : Su-57 Only Option,1580 ATHOS Order,MWF Metal Cutting,Anti-Drone Production

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[WolfPack86]

Israel’s ATHOS gun system or Atmanirbhar ATAGS? Defence negative list to finalise next week
New Delhi: Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault. A final decision on this is still awaited.

All eyes are now on the second defence negative import list, which is expected to be out soon, to see if the 155mm x 52 caliber towed artillery gun is on it.


Sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint that the list has been submitted but a physical meeting has not taken place due to the second wave of the Covid-19 pandemic.

The meeting to review and clear the decision is now expected next week.

While the artillery gun was there in the first negative list released on 9 August 2020, and the embargo was to kick in from December 2020, the date was was subsequently changed to December 2021.




With the deal yet to be signed, eyes are on whether the cut-off date will remain or extended again.

The reason for extending the date was that while the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) is being built, a separate process is also on to get similar guns from the global market and making them in the country under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

This race was primarily between Israel’s Elbit Systems and France’s Nexter, and Elbit’s Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) emerged the winner.


The process for acquiring towed guns began in 2001 as part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. Multiple requests for proposal (RFPs) were issued. In the last RFP, which was issued under the UPA government, only the two companies mentioned above participated, sources said.

Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault.

Elbit emerged cheaper than Nexter
In March 2019, following what was meant to be an exhaustive ‘Field Trial Cum Evaluation Process’ spread over several years, which saw several ups and downs, Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder (L1).


The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of the remainder 1,180 guns by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

Sources in the defence establishment said the price of Elbit Systems’ ATHOS was lower by 40 per cent compared to the price of its competitor — Nexter’s Trajan gun.

Sources in know of the bidding process said the cost per gun, which weighs less than 15 tonnes and has a fully automatic loading system, put forward by Elbit was less than Rs 11 crore per piece. This is also significantly lower than the estimated cost of the ATAGS, which is said to be anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.

However, since the bid opened in March 2019 and the completion of the cost negotiation process in July that year, a final decision is pending.

In December last year, the Israeli government also wrote a letter to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to push for this deal.

However, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has gone on record to oppose any import plans, saying that its ATAGS was better than ATHOS and is the gun of the future.

Elbit’s offer
Earlier last year, the Israeli firm also wrote to the Indian defence authorities, stating that in case they prefer to acquire only the first 400 towed guns, the related cost corresponding to TOT can be deducted from the total contract price.

This was due to a line of thinking in the defence establishment that 400 of these guns (for 20 regiments) can be procured from Elbit to “overcome operational voids in the medium artillery in HAA (High Altitude Area) along the northern borders”.

However, sources said the figures in the RFP cannot be changed in the middle of the process.

In the letter, Elbit Systems had offered the TOT for the future 1,180 guns as an option for India, at the same cost as mentioned in the commercial offer made.

Elbit also said it has finalised the approach and strategy to achieve 70 per cent indigenisation within the contract of the first 400 towed guns, starting from the first guns.

The company’s argument was that the ATHOS is tailored to the special requirements of the Indian Army and it has invested tens of millions of dollars in the design and development of the gun in accordance with Army requirements and in the field trials.

The sources said Elbit also promised to supply the guns much earlier than the contract delivery schedule — the first six guns within 10 months from contract signing, and an additional six guns within 14 months.

According to the Israeli firm, all the remaining guns will be delivered according to an accelerated delivery schedule, which will ensure finalisation of the deliveries not later than 54 months from contract signing, instead of the 72 months stipulated in the draft contract.

In its communications with the Indian defence establishment, Elbit said the ATHOS will end up being an indigenous gun — mass produced, assembled and integrated in India.

Highlighting that it has a joint venture (JV) with Indian firm Bharat Forge, the Israeli company said the technology and design will be fully transferred to the JV and OFB, enabling the ATHOS to be mass-produced in India.

Incidentally, Bharat Forge is also involved with the ATGS development along with the Tata Group.

This report has been updated to reflect that the import embargo date for the artillery gun was extended to December 2021.

Israel's ATHOS gun system or Atmanirbhar ATAGS? Defence negative list to finalise next week

The towed gun system is part of Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan that was drawn up in 1999. An Israeli firm has been in the race for over two years now.

theprint.in

 

[Trololo]

Israel’s ATHOS gun system or Atmanirbhar ATAGS? Defence negative list to finalise next week
New Delhi: Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault. A final decision on this is still awaited.

All eyes are now on the second defence negative import list, which is expected to be out soon, to see if the 155mm x 52 caliber towed artillery gun is on it.


Sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint that the list has been submitted but a physical meeting has not taken place due to the second wave of the Covid-19 pandemic.

The meeting to review and clear the decision is now expected next week.

While the artillery gun was there in the first negative list released on 9 August 2020, and the embargo was to kick in from December 2020, the date was was subsequently changed to December 2021.




With the deal yet to be signed, eyes are on whether the cut-off date will remain or extended again.

The reason for extending the date was that while the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) is being built, a separate process is also on to get similar guns from the global market and making them in the country under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

This race was primarily between Israel’s Elbit Systems and France’s Nexter, and Elbit’s Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) emerged the winner.


The process for acquiring towed guns began in 2001 as part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. Multiple requests for proposal (RFPs) were issued. In the last RFP, which was issued under the UPA government, only the two companies mentioned above participated, sources said.

Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault.

Elbit emerged cheaper than Nexter
In March 2019, following what was meant to be an exhaustive ‘Field Trial Cum Evaluation Process’ spread over several years, which saw several ups and downs, Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder (L1).


The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of the remainder 1,180 guns by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

Sources in the defence establishment said the price of Elbit Systems’ ATHOS was lower by 40 per cent compared to the price of its competitor — Nexter’s Trajan gun.

Sources in know of the bidding process said the cost per gun, which weighs less than 15 tonnes and has a fully automatic loading system, put forward by Elbit was less than Rs 11 crore per piece. This is also significantly lower than the estimated cost of the ATAGS, which is said to be anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.

However, since the bid opened in March 2019 and the completion of the cost negotiation process in July that year, a final decision is pending.

In December last year, the Israeli government also wrote a letter to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to push for this deal.

However, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has gone on record to oppose any import plans, saying that its ATAGS was better than ATHOS and is the gun of the future.

Elbit’s offer
Earlier last year, the Israeli firm also wrote to the Indian defence authorities, stating that in case they prefer to acquire only the first 400 towed guns, the related cost corresponding to TOT can be deducted from the total contract price.

This was due to a line of thinking in the defence establishment that 400 of these guns (for 20 regiments) can be procured from Elbit to “overcome operational voids in the medium artillery in HAA (High Altitude Area) along the northern borders”.

However, sources said the figures in the RFP cannot be changed in the middle of the process.

In the letter, Elbit Systems had offered the TOT for the future 1,180 guns as an option for India, at the same cost as mentioned in the commercial offer made.

Elbit also said it has finalised the approach and strategy to achieve 70 per cent indigenisation within the contract of the first 400 towed guns, starting from the first guns.

The company’s argument was that the ATHOS is tailored to the special requirements of the Indian Army and it has invested tens of millions of dollars in the design and development of the gun in accordance with Army requirements and in the field trials.

The sources said Elbit also promised to supply the guns much earlier than the contract delivery schedule — the first six guns within 10 months from contract signing, and an additional six guns within 14 months.

According to the Israeli firm, all the remaining guns will be delivered according to an accelerated delivery schedule, which will ensure finalisation of the deliveries not later than 54 months from contract signing, instead of the 72 months stipulated in the draft contract.

In its communications with the Indian defence establishment, Elbit said the ATHOS will end up being an indigenous gun — mass produced, assembled and integrated in India.

Highlighting that it has a joint venture (JV) with Indian firm Bharat Forge, the Israeli company said the technology and design will be fully transferred to the JV and OFB, enabling the ATHOS to be mass-produced in India.

Incidentally, Bharat Forge is also involved with the ATGS development along with the Tata Group.

This report has been updated to reflect that the import embargo date for the artillery gun was extended to December 2021.

Israel's ATHOS gun system or Atmanirbhar ATAGS? Defence negative list to finalise next week

The towed gun system is part of Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan that was drawn up in 1999. An Israeli firm has been in the race for over two years now.

theprint.in

I would like to link this with the ATAGS barrel burst just when it was ready for limited induction. Won't be surprised if Israel is actively trying to sabotage this.

 

[Marliii]

I would like to link this with the ATAGS barrel burst just when it was ready for limited induction. Won't be surprised if Israel is actively trying to sabotage this.

Israel ? There are punks here who are doing that

 

[Tactical Doge]

Israel ? There are punks here who are doing that

OFB ammunition did that
But doesn't matter, unless it is on the import blacklist, not going to make any difference
The company doing the most ((( under the table deals))) will get in on the contract

Blacklist ki jai ho

 

[vampyrbladez]

I would like to link this with the ATAGS barrel burst just when it was ready for limited induction. Won't be surprised if Israel is actively trying to sabotage this.

Baba Kalyan ko ghanta farak padta hai. Paancho ungliyo ghee mein hai.

 

[WolfPack86]

DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’
New Delhi: Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.

They added that the validation trials at high altitude areas, including mobility trials in hilly and mountainous terrain have been completed.


The ATAGS is part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. According to this plan, the Army is supposed to have a different kinds of artillery, including the towed system, which is meant to be a 155mm x 52 caliber.

With the global procurement plans for a towed gun faltering despite multiple attempts, the project for ATAGS was rolled out by the DRDO around 2010.

The ATAGS, which is being developed by the DRDO with the two private firms, fired for the first time in a fully integrated model in 2016.




This development came even as the Army has been pursuing a separate process for procurement of towed guns from abroad under the ‘Make In India’ initiative.

The gun that has finally emerged as the lowest bidder for this process was the ATHOS of the Israeli firm Elbit, in 2019.

The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of another 1,180 guns by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

However, the Army has changed its plans and is now eyeing to only procure 400 of the ATHOS, but the DRDO is objecting even to this and says the ATAGS is better and is the weapon of the future.

A final decision on ATHOS is still pending as reported on 28 May.

Army’s concern and comparison
Defence sources said that the development of ATAGS has been completed and is presently under PSQR (Weapons procurement and qualitative requirements) trials to finalise the final configuration of the gun system.


However, the Army has a “few issues of concern”.

Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain.
The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.

Those advocating for the ATAGS say that if the weight is indeed an issue, other systems like the Dhanush gun can be used for the mountains besides the lightweight howitzers along with the indigenous towed system.

“Not all guns have to operate in the same way across all terrains. In tanks, we have the T-90 and T-72 which can operate easily in the mountains and can also be airlifted there. But we also have the Arjun, which cannot operate in the same way it would in desert areas,” a defence expert, who did not wish to be identified, said.

ATAGS programme sources said the self-propelled mobility of this system is high and it is capable of crossing all Indian bridges and terrain.

They also said that the in weight category it is comparable with other comparable gun systems in the world.

Industry sources said that the most significant achievement during the second phase of PSQR Winter Trials was moving the guns to the Northern-most point of operational area (Lukrep) in the Plateau areas of North Sikkim.

The movement was undertaken mostly during the hours of darkness to facilitate undisturbed movement of tourists and civilian vehicles and at the same time maintain confidentiality of the gun system with our adversaries.

They said that ATAGS (Bharat Forge) has demonstrated efficient towed movement in the treacherous terrain climbing altitudes up to 15,500 ft.

“Movement to Lukrep meant covering 341 kilometres and was tested over 10 days. ATAGS could negotiate the otherwise un-accessible mountainous terrain with steep gradient and narrow Hair-Pin Bends with ease, without needing to unhook the Gun from the Tower. In similar terrain, other systems need to be unhooked and moved in self-propelled mode, thereby increasing the overall travel time,” a source said.

He added that the total distance traveled by the ATAGS in mountains and high altitude was 526 kms as against 23 Kms mobility test done for foreign guns.

So there cannot be any doubt on the mobility component of the ATAGS. The foreign gun should also be tested at the same location if someone believes that it is better,” the source added.

He added that the the ease with which the Bharat Forge Gun could traverse the complete stretch, stands testimony to the ability of the Guns to move into the remotest of places, in any type of terrain.

Defence sources have also voiced other concerns about the ATAGS, however. A second concern they said is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.

ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.

In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.

The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.

Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.

One area where the ATAGS outguns other systems is the range. The ATAGS’s range with Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition is 35 km and with ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition is 45 km. The ATAGS has actually fired at a range of 47 KMS in 2017.

It is said that when the ATAGS will finally be ordered, both private firms will get orders, but the lowest bidder would get the largest share – 60 per cent or more.

Both guns – Bharat Forge and TATA – have the same performance parameters and the final contract will be awarded based on the cost cited.

DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

While the DRDO insists ATAGS are better than the Israeli ATHOS, the army has voiced concern over its weight and inability to meet critical performance parameters.

theprint.in

 

[Jimih]

 

[vishnugupt]

How our Armed forces take trials .......

Private Player: Greetings General saab, We have brought you a brand new ATAG for trials
General: Ok, anything else ??
PP: No sir.
General: are you sure??
PP: We have built you very fine gun which is incorporated with latest technology, it can do...blah.. blah... blah....
General: Ok, Anything else ??
PP: No sir, Please sir, have a field trials. The Gun is made under "AtmaNirbharBharata" banner sir
General : Ok, Let me make you AtmaNirbhar.
PP: Please sir
General: By the way how much Charges it can Tolerate ??
PP: certified for 7 Charges
General: Ok, lets go for trials but before that I need to call my Sahayak.

On the field................. Trials going on with full swing. Fire...... Dummm, Fire..... Dummmmm. Fire....... dummmmmm.

General to PP: Are you sure you haven't brought anything else apart from gun ??
PP: No Sir, We need your blessings saaar
General: Look PP There is a airplane is flying in the sky ..... can you spot that for me....
PP: ok
General ( Silently ): Sahayak put 10 charges in Barrel and outdated- OFB written Shell which you have brought from junk yard.

Fire.......... Damaaaakkkkkk ..... "BAARRREEeeelllll Fat gayi Shriman"

General : Hold the trials till I finish my Inquiry
PP: What to do now .....Saaar. My company will be Bankrupted
General: Go and tell the CEO. there is a word "Kickback" which always come with parcel and you have forgotten it. Before leaving, please Hire a paid Journalist to write an article about my generosity and Commitment toward AtmNirbharBharat. Jai Hind.

IA Textbook manner trials.

 

[THESIS THORON]

1) JVF has only supplied 16 Dhanush to date.

is this thing fake???

 

[ezsasa]

It seems General M. M. Naravane will break all records of the previous Kick-Back deals. I don't know about Laddakh but he is certainly on a war footing in terms of importing weapons.

IA army has already planted 2 fake news. 1) JVF has only supplied 16 Dhanush to date. 2) ATAGs are heavy and more costly than ATHOS.

Our Begar Armed forces become ruthless against their own equipment as they did to Su- 30mki but surprisingly I never heard anything about MIG-21 despite daily crashes. it seems Mig-21 is still providing better kickback money for Air chief.

or

Maybe armed forces want complete their procurement cycles as fast as they can, within available options in the prevailing circumstances.

If BJP doesn’t get elected next term, there will be no procurement later anyways. procurement files will go back to their old habits of running round and round the office buildings while taking long stops at each office.

people forget that pre-2014 raj Babbar once closed a parliamentary committee on defence meeting because he was to catch a flight.