Indian Army Artillery

[Aniruddha Mulay]

The Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan(FARP) is bound to change, it was formulated in the aftermath of the Kargil war, that is 20 years ago.
Things have changed a lot since then, nowhere in the FARP is there a mention of the 155/39cal howitzer mounted on a 4x4 truck.
The former COAS Gen Bipin Rawat had personally requested Kalyani to build a 155/39 MGS at Defence Expo 2018 in the aftermath of Doklam possibly for rapid deployment.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Ya but field rationalization only talks about 145 ulh.
So we must conclude this plan is obsolete now. And something new is in motion.

Also the requirement for tracked Self Propelled Howitzer is much more than 100, also there are rumours that DRDO and L&T are working on a desi K9 Vajra like SPH.

 

[Chinmoy]

Depressing ! So much for "aatmanirhbhar", MoD babus should be sacked !

Click bait article. Another article is already out last month informing the deal been cancelled. Even Israelis are not talking about it, but seems our AnalYeast can't control themselves.

 

[samsaptaka]

Click bait article. Another article is already out last month informing the deal been cancelled. Even Israelis are not talking about it, but seems our AnalYeast can't control themselves.

I hope you are right ! If govt goes ahead and imports 1500 pieces of this Israeli artillery then Aatmanirbharata is dead in a ditch. But if you are right why does not the govt or MoD or RM issue a statement which all foriegn deals are cancelled and which will go ahead ? What is stopping them from issuing such statements ? It will clear the picture and stop dalals from having a field day ! As usual bad communication from Kadi Ninda .

 

[Chinmoy]

I hope you are right ! If govt goes ahead and imports 1500 pieces of this Israeli artillery then Aatmanirbharata is dead in a ditch. But if you are right why does not the govt or MoD or RM issue a statement which all foriegn deals are cancelled and which will go ahead ? What is stopping them from issuing such statements ? It will clear the picture and stop dalals from having a field day ! As usual bad communication from Kadi Ninda .

Well publishing such a report is like hitting your head on an axe. As of now only sub components list has been published. Do you know that it was Kalyani which formed a JV with Elbit for it and pushing it. The same Kalyani about which we can't stop discussing. Even the ATAGS does have Elbit delivered sub systems. What if tomorrow they do an arm twisting act when a mass order for ATAGS gets signed on?
You always need to keep some grey area for future negotiation. Putting it down on paper would make things Black and White and it is not always good in commercial terms.

 

[scatterStorm]

If you go through the India section in the wiki page of M777, you will get to know that there is a requirement for 500 more ULH. This is where Kalyani developed 155/39 ULH comes into the picture.
Cheaper option to the M777

I've been thinking to why the Kalyani ULHs haven't already been inducted. Did they failed trials or are still in development?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

I've been thinking to why the Kalyani ULHs haven't already been inducted. Did they failed trials or are still in development?

The Kalyani 155/39 ULH, 155/52 ULH, 155/39 MGS were all first showcased at Defence Expo 2020, that's barely 4 months ago.
The 155/39 MGS was supposed to undergo trials as soon as the Expo ended.
The ULH can be spotted at the Army's Deolali School of Artillery in the Rajya Sabha TV Security Scan video, so definitely trials are underway.

 

[WolfPack86]

India Plans To Curb Weapons Imports, Focus On Domestic Manufacturing To Promote 'Atmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyan'
New Delhi: Under its "Aatma Nirbhar Bharat Abhiyan", the Narendra Modi government has decided to soon initiate procurement of arms and ammunition from local industries to reduce import dependence on foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs).



This is a post COVID-19 plan of the Central government which it would implement after it gets relief in fight against the deadly virus.



The Union Home Ministry (MHA) -- which is responsible for the country's internal security -- will soon urge private industries to come forward to meet the expectations of the government so that procurement of arms and ammunition from foreign countries could be curtailed.



It is learnt that the government is open to solve the issues of the private sector by shaping them to be price competitive and focus on quality in production so as to fulfil needs of best arms and ammunition.



The plan not only envisages catering to domestic needs, but also to export Indian products abroad. This is an attempt to achieve the vision of "Aatma Nirbhar Bharat Abhiyan" as India has been for the last many years dependent on outside OEMs.



Sources said that the government started preparing a road map in this direction since it came into power, and the Arms (Amendment) Bill, 2019, bringing changes to the six-decade-old Arms Act, 1959 was passed by Parliament in December last year for this purpose.



Under the amended law, licensed private industries have been allowed to manufacture and proof test small arms and ammunition including the ones being used by the military.



Addressing a FICCI webinar, Minister of State for Home G. Kishan Reddy on Wednesday also signalled the government's plan, saying they will focus on promoting domestic manufacturing of arms, ammunition and other security products under 'Make in India' to promote Aatma Nirbhar Bharat Abhiyan -- a call given by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his May 12 address to the nation in which he talked about the pre- and post-Covid worlds. In order to fulfil the dream of making the 21st century India's century, Modi had said the way forward is through ensuring that the country becomes "self-reliant".

Noting that India was dependent on worldwide OEMs for procuring arms and ammunition for the last several years, the Minister said: "Now the government of India has decided to soon initiate procurement from local industries to reduce import dependence."



Reddy highlighted that the government is also in the process of upgrading various testing centres and labs in the country. He added that the government will also use the Government e-Marketplace portal to promote domestic products.



In this direction, India is expected to cut short the artillery list of imports this year because guns that have lately been inducted into the army such as M777 howitzers, K9 Vajra and Dhanush are being manufactured in India.



To promote indigenous defence manufacturing and reduce imports, Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, last month, had announced that a list of weapons and equipment banned for import would be made in consultation with the Department of Military Affairs headed by the Chief of Defence Staff.

In a bid to boost domestic manufacturing of arms and ammunition under the government's 'Make in India' initiative, the MHA in 2017 had notified new Arms rules that allow arms manufacturing licences to be valid for the lifetime of the licensee company. Prior to this notification, such licenses had to be renewed every five years.



The liberalised rules only apply to licences granted by the MHA to small arms and ammunition companies, and those granted by the Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion (DIPP), under powers delegated it, for tanks and other armoured vehicles, spacecraft, defence aircraft, warships of all kinds, arms and ammunition and allied items of defence equipment other than small arms.



There are nearly 100 firms licensed by the MHA for the manufacture of guns (single barrel/double barrel) and around 30 firms manufacturing cartridges (blank or live cartridges or both) up to the quota permitted in their licences.



Max Aerospace, Bharat Forge, L&T and Punj Lloyd are among the Indian firms who legally manufacture arms and ammunition.

India Plans To Curb Weapons Imports, Focus On Domestic Manufacturing To Promote 'Atmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyan'

The Union Home Ministry (MHA) will soon urge private industries to come forward to meet the expectations of the government so that pro...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Coalmine]

It has been a mixed bag. Will only list out the sore points.

INSAS - Only fit for ceremonial parade. Even Chidambaram decided to ditch that abomination in the name of a rifle and gave AK's to the COBRA force he raised.

Akash - Will count it as a blessing if one takes off in battle.

Arjun - The flaws have been beaten to death. No need to start a fresh discussion on old sore points again. Go spend some time with the jokers at HVF and talk to the profs at IITM who have been involved with the project for a long time. Don't think you will hear one praiseworthy statement from IITM Profs about these HVF 'engineers'.

NAG - One that raises its hood every 10 years during trials and goes back into its hole.

Dhanush - Our wonderful folks realized late in 2012-13 that we had all the blueprints of FH-77B. What do they do? Outsource procurement to suppliers who in turn import sub standard junk to assemble the gun.
Finally, some progress is being made.

Army men die due to faulty weapons. Will you still blame them if they demand for weapons and weapon systems that don't fail during war or an encounter? Is it too much to ask for? They don't go on strike like other DPSU clowns, do they?

Those cold war era AK imports which cost us a fraction of INSAS are still going strong despite seeing 20-25 years in deployment. Compare the same to 'our' INSAS?

Whenever Forces try to procure a weapon system, our guys jump in and stall it saying they will make it in record time. End of the day, forces will only fight with what they have. Then, when you find coffins flying back from the battlefront, you start blaming politicians and 'corrupt' Generals but not one Babu gets blamed. Why?

The Astra is a fine piece of technology. Let's pray it becomes the much needed platform to develop a family of A2A and S2A missiles which can be produced by the thousands to safeguard us for decades to come.

Dhanush and atags cleared trials. Order meagre 114 and atags no order.
Lch no order.
Tejas mk1a no order.
Helina nag- no order keep finding faults.
Arjun - no orders .
When faults come in foren maal try to hide it. Like m777 barrel blasts, poor performance of T series tanks.

 

[another_armchair]

Dhanush and atags cleared trials. Order meagre 114 and atags no order.
Lch no order.
Tejas mk1a no order.
Helina nag- no order keep finding faults.
Arjun - no orders .
When faults come in foren maal try to hide it. Like m777 barrel blasts, poor performance of T series tanks.

114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years.
There were three incidents of shell striking the barrel of the Dhanush during trials. Did IA reject them? They told them to find the root cause and fix it, and fixed, it was.

Trust me, our forces will be the happiest if Indian systems are reliable. After all, they also pay taxes.
A desi system means issues would be addressed locally and response times would be less too.

How many HAL choppers serving our forces? Any rejections yet? No. No chants of corruption?

Both AK-203 UP factory, S-400 and the KA-226 are POLITICAL decisions. Forces have absolutely no say in that. The Govt. may go ahead even if the forces say no to them. So behti Ganga mei ek dubki maarne se kya jayega?

A General cannot order an Arty weapon by himself. It has to go through the MoD. Gen. Deepak Kapoor was from Arty. Despite his best efforts, he could not induct any Tube Arty system during his tenure.

Regarding Helina, it is an integration issue and all efforts are being made to fix those. Once those are fixed, orders will definitely be placed.

ATAGS was a DRDO project and how much do they weigh? What is the length of the weapon system? How easily can it be transported to our borders bordering China. Enough has been written about them. Should IA have different guns for the Western sector, different set of guns for the Eastern sector and different guns for the Northern sector?

Imagine, a squad of 6 commandos with different calibre weapons ending up in a long firefight and start running out of ammo one after the other. Uske baad H2H combat only followed by some gallantry Chakra

 

[fire starter]

114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years.
There were three incidents of shell striking the barrel of the Dhanush during trials. Did IA reject them? They told them to find the root cause and fix it, and fixed, it was.

Trust me, our forces will be the happiest if Indian systems are reliable. After all, they also pay taxes.
A desi system means issues would be addressed locally and response times would be less too.

How many HAL choppers serving our forces? Any rejections yet? No. No chants of corruption?

Both AK-203 UP factory, S-400 and the KA-226 are POLITICAL decisions. Forces have absolutely no say in that. The Govt. may go ahead even if the forces say no to them. So behti Ganga mei ek dubki maarne se kya jayega?

A General cannot order an Arty weapon by himself. It has to go through the MoD. Gen. Deepak Kapoor was from Arty. Despite his best efforts, he could not induct any Tube Arty system during his tenure.

Regarding Helina, it is an integration issue and all efforts are being made to fix those. Once those are fixed, orders will definitely be placed.

ATAGS was a DRDO project and how much do they weigh? What is the length of the weapon system? How easily can it be transported to our borders bordering China. Enough has been written about them. Should IA have different guns for the Western sector, different set of guns for the Eastern sector and different guns for the Northern sector?

Imagine, a squad of 6 commandos with different calibre weapons ending up in a long firefight and start running out of ammo one after the other. Uske baad H2H combat only followed by some gallantry Chakra

ATAGS is a beast it should be inducted anyhow.

 

[ladder]

114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years.
There were three incidents of shell striking the barrel of the Dhanush during trials. Did IA reject them? They told them to find the root cause and fix it, and fixed, it was.

Trust me, our forces will be the happiest if Indian systems are reliable. After all, they also pay taxes.
A desi system means issues would be addressed locally and response times would be less too.

How many HAL choppers serving our forces? Any rejections yet? No. No chants of corruption?

Both AK-203 UP factory, S-400 and the KA-226 are POLITICAL decisions. Forces have absolutely no say in that. The Govt. may go ahead even if the forces say no to them. So behti Ganga mei ek dubki maarne se kya jayega?

A General cannot order an Arty weapon by himself. It has to go through the MoD. Gen. Deepak Kapoor was from Arty. Despite his best efforts, he could not induct any Tube Arty system during his tenure.

Regarding Helina, it is an integration issue and all efforts are being made to fix those. Once those are fixed, orders will definitely be placed.

ATAGS was a DRDO project and how much do they weigh? What is the length of the weapon system? How easily can it be transported to our borders bordering China. Enough has been written about them. Should IA have different guns for the Western sector, different set of guns for the Eastern sector and different guns for the Northern sector?

Imagine, a squad of 6 commandos with different calibre weapons ending up in a long firefight and start running out of ammo one after the other. Uske baad H2H combat only followed by some gallantry Chakra

~4900 shells fired from Dhanush. Cleared all trials. Should I create a battle with our neighbors to make it battle proven?
Original plan was 114+300.
When did the trials wind up? And when was the indent placed?

 

[Bhadra]

ATAGS is a beast it should be inducted anyhow.

With weight four tons more than asked for...
And who is going to tow that additional four tons in mountains..
who asked DODOs to make such a heavy chamber ...??

Chataki marate ho to apane pas rakho..

 

[another_armchair]

Dhanus was accepted as a via media, sort of demonstrator to prove OFB can make 155mm guns. It is not 155/ 52 but 155/45 caliber.
The IA program is 155/52 ... so where is the doubt. why should 155/45 be accepted ???

IA can not have an assotment of different calibers of 155 guns??

Kahin Ka Inta Kahi Ka Rora. Bhanumati Ne Kunaba Jora .....

Who was the brain behind upgrading 130 mm M-46 guns to 155/45 'Sharang' standard?

Aside, the OFB upgrade happened after Army found the Soltam upgrade below its 'expectations' or was it a lollipop for OFB?

Afaik, there was a customary tender opening ceremony too.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

With weight four tons more than asked for...
And who is going to tow that additional four tons in mountains..
who asked DODOs to make such a heavy chamber ...??

Chataki marate ho to apane pas rakho..

Kalyani has said that they can reduce the extra weight by making use of Titanium but that will drive up the price which means the IA top brass will happily find an excuse to go for imported ATHOS 2052.
ATAGS can shoot freakin 48 km away, that too with unguided munition.
Stop this DODO rant of yours, without DODO there would be no Agni missile series, K missile series, QRSAM, Prithvi missile series, Pinaka, Netra AEW&C, Weapons locating Radar, various different radar types, different sonar types, Varunastra HWT, ALWT and what not.

 

[AMCA]

why should 155/45 be accepted ???

Army has placed initial orders for 114 dhanush guns which will eventually go upto 414. That's a lot of no. for a tech demo product.
155mm/52 cal version of Dhanush exist and are in trials.

OFB exports its newly developed 52-calibre barrels to Bofors
The OFB chairman said that it has exported two 52-calibre barrels to Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors AB, from which it had imported 155 mm howitzer guns in the mid-80s.

OFB exports its newly developed 52-calibre barrels to Bofors - The Economic Times

The OFB chairman said that it has exported two 52-calibre barrels to Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors AB, from which it had imported 155 mm howitzer guns in the mid-80s.

m.economictimes.com

BTW wasn't this firm blacklisted by government?

 

[ladder]

Dhanus was accepted as a via media, sort of demonstrator to prove OFB can make 155mm guns. It is not 155/ 52 but 155/45 caliber.
The IA program is 155/52 ... so where is the doubt. why should 155/45 be accepted ???

IA can not have an assotment of different calibers of 155 guns??

Kahin Ka Inta Kahi Ka Rora. Bhanumati Ne Kunaba Jora .....

LoL

Toh General sahib media media khel rahe the?

'accepted via media'

Matlab kuch bhi...

Six Guns are currently with the Regiment of Artillery and an indent has been placed for 114 Guns. This would be followed by an indent for 300 additional Guns.

Indian Artillery : A Peep Into Its Past, Present & Future

The Regiment of Artillery celebrates is all set celebrate 192 years of its inception on 28 September.Artillery is the second biggest arm.

www.aviation-defence-universe.com

An army which hasn't operated more than 400 155/39 and whose total 155mm towed Arty requirements are 1680 says that 25% ( of 1600) of holdings are/will be tech demonstrators.

The joke on you.

But fret not O' volatile, OFB has you covered in this also. They have also made 155/52 Caliber barrel. And have exported to UK/ BAE/Bofors.

And m777 is 39 caliber. Why didn't you wait for 52 caliber version of m777?

That's not an assortment right?

Also, Soltam upgrade to M46 are 155/45 so are 300 Sharang upgrade

 

[Bhadra]

Kalyani has said that they can reduce the extra weight by making use of Titanium but that will drive up the price which means the IA top brass will happily find an excuse to go for imported ATHOS 2052.
ATAGS can shoot freakin 48 km away, that too with unguided munition.
Stop this DODO rant of yours, without DODO there would be no Agni missile series, K missile series, QRSAM, Prithvi missile series, Pinaka, Netra AEW&C, Weapons locating Radar, various different radar types, different sonar types, Varunastra HWT, ALWT and what not.

Simple thing ... and not a rant...
Who asked them for 48 km ??? Give that ATAGS who needs 48 km..
At what charge is 48 km achieved at and what is the EFC of the barrel at that charge.. who and how will IA control artillery fire at 48 km...
What is operational or tactical use of neutralizing a target 48km away in a tactical battlefield ?
Who has asked Kalyani to make titanium barrel costing four times more than normal guns ?? Who will foot the bill ? If IA wanted more ULH they would have included that in their schemes. ULH further needs Chinooks.. add that cost to ULH... what is the barrel life of ULH as compared to noraml guns.. and why does IA need more ULH when billions are being spent on infrastructure...

Tum log apane Kunwe me hi raho to theek hai...

 

[WolfPack86]

OFB-BEML 155mm 52 calibre Mounted Gun System.

 

[ARVION]

Also the requirement for tracked Self Propelled Howitzer is much more than 100, also there are rumours that DRDO and L&T are working on a desi K9 Vajra like SPH.

Actually it will be the same Vajra's externally but with totally different internally l & t has probably brought the intecuall rights for the vajra hulls and turret from the developer so l & t would probably want to span the platform for SPH's FRCV and FMBT's