Indian Army Artillery

[Aniruddha Mulay]

What's happening ?????????

ATHOS 2052 news is still at large.

 

[Longewala]

I am just curious if there is a genuine reason for this purchase - is the fireign maal much cheaper or has some features such as mobility etc that make it superior.

Still doesn't justify this, but then army will remain army, foreign maal ki bhook and all that.

 

[ezsasa]

I am just curious if there is a genuine reason for this purchase - is the fireign maal much cheaper or has some features such as mobility etc that make it superior.

Still doesn't justify this, but then army will remain army, foreign maal ki bhook and all that.

Maybe They are just diversifying their requirements.

Ultimately there are only two companies who makes arty barrels in India. kalyani & GCF Jabalpur. It will take time for Kalyani to mature as a stable supplier. Kalyani will get it’s order, but not all of it.

And second reason could be race against time. Modi govt want to close this arty procurement issue before term is over. If BJP doesn’t come back to power next term, arty procurement might go back into cold storage. They are in a hurry to get the deals done for all 3000 arty guns as early as possible while ensuring a certain percentage of procurement is done from Indian companies.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Maybe They are just diversifying their requirements.

Ultimately there are only two companies who makes arty barrels in India. kalyani & GCF Jabalpur. It will take time for Kalyani to mature as a stable supplier. Kalyani will get it’s order, but not all of it.

And second reason could be race against time. Modi govt want to close this arty procurement issue before term is over. If BJP doesn’t come back to power next term, arty procurement might go back into cold storage. They are in a hurry to get the deals done for all 3000 arty guns as early as possible while ensuring a certain percentage of procurement is done from Indian companies.

No, I differ on this.
Rather than procuring from foreign, this government can give offer to kalyani, Tata and ofb in NUMBERS too, jumpstart their manufacturing systems but government is not doing this, dalals are still laughing there.
If government want to do any "buy" early and important one,navy helicopters and long range AAMs from Russia are important.
I am telling that we have the capacity to develop huge numbers of guns within two years.
India is not going to war in these two years and EVERYONE KNOW L&T guns clusterf*ck,not that I support foreign products but to say to you we have capability.... only problem is government indecisiveness.

 

[Haldiram]

so Indian army will get more than 1000 ethos from Israel through TOT but why when we have so many indegeneous options available. saurav jha rightly said that if any more artillery guns are exported then expect noting from the MOD and army and today his warning came true.

ARE BETICHOD DIMAG ME GOBAR BHARA HAI KYA INDEGENEOUS ARTILLERY GUNS KO KOI ORDER NAHI LEKIN IMPORTED MAAL TO 1000 GUN KA ORDER

Israeli defense lobby has a habit of planting such news in the Indian media to create a hype. They announced the induction of Spike missiles 3 times now. We still don't have an accurate picture of whether we are getting the Spike and how many Nag missiles we will be inducting. This misdirection is part of the foreign sales lobby.

 

[ezsasa]

No, I differ on this.
Rather than procuring from foreign, this government can give offer to kalyani, Tata and ofb in NUMBERS too, jumpstart their manufacturing systems but government is not doing this, dalals are still laughing there.
If government want to do any "buy" early and important one,navy helicopters and long range AAMs from Russia are important.
I am telling that we have the capacity to develop huge numbers of guns within two years.
India is not going to war in these two years and EVERYONE KNOW L&T guns clusterf*ck,not that I support foreign products but to say to you we have capability.... only problem is government indecisiveness.

For now there are only two guns that have cleared trials.
1) dhanush (OFB) - ordered
2) ATAGS (DRDO + Kalyani + Tata). - under trails as of 2019
3) Sharang(up gun) - not sure if ordered.

Other Kalyani arty guns have not gone into trails.

No other domestic gun has gone into trails, as far as I know.

How can orders be given when trails are not done?

Am I missing something?

 

[Aaj ka hero]

For now there are only two guns that have cleared trials.
1) dhanush (OFB) - ordered
2) ATAGS (DRDO + Kalyani + Tata). - under trails as of 2019
3) Sharang(up gun) - not sure if ordered.

Other Kalyani arty guns have not gone into trails.

No other domestic gun has gone into trails, as far as I know.

How can orders be given when trails are not done?

Am I missing something?

By showing some trust.... if that guy is saying he can do it, atleast for the sake of country progress and standing as an equal among greats the government and especially army can show some concern.
Also, I don't know but upto many times ATAGS will go on tests? it is going on and on.

 

[ezsasa]

By showing some trust.... if that guy is saying he can do it, atleast for the sake of country progress and standing as an equal among greats the government and especially army can show some concern.
Also, I don't know but upto many times ATAGS will go on tests? it is going on and on.

I get your point.

But still, three arty Guns were on offer. Two seems to have cleared trails in last 3 years.

4 different guns are in the process of induction. Dhanush, Sharang, K777 & K9 Vajra.

Procurement schedule has not fallen behind.

Only gun whose trails are yet to clear is ATAGS. Since winter is over, we might hear news of trails being completed this year itself too. ATAGS official internal final trials started in 2018, IA trails started in 2019 i think. As such not much delay.

We should be asking questions on Truck mounted gun, when will those trails start.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I get your point.

But still, three arty Guns were on offer. Two seems to have cleared trails in last 3 years.

4 different guns are in the process of induction. Dhanush, Sharang, K777 & K9 Vajra.

Procurement schedule has not fallen behind.

Only gun whose trails are yet to clear is ATAGS. Since winter is over, we might hear news of trails being completed this year itself too. ATAGS official internal final trials started in 2018, IA trails started in 2019 i think. As such not much delay.

We should be asking questions on Truck mounted gun, when will those trails start.

Trials, really nobody in open media know what they do in trials, trials go for f-35 daily too but that didn't stopped USA and other countries from not buying it.
What our army really did in these two year long trials?
I tell you one thing sir, really one thing.
Had it ATAGS gotten inducted year ago, I have no doubt but a feeling that ATAGS might had been then enquired for purchase from other countries. That is a good platform, don't Indigenous supportive diplomats, army guys know that the time they are taking is also the time open for ATHOS to get into the frame?
We don't know what happened to that order of ATAGS? Still testing going on, man no other foreign weapon has to go through such long tests because their army guys use it in war like M-777 and then rectify it and then sell it.
Army could have done it too by using ATAGS on loc.

 

[janme]

Guys I found this gem on another thread. Read the last few lines of the Israel artillery article

I think army should release the results of the each trial of foreign weapons, I will not be suprised if it is not done intentionally.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Guys I found this gem on another thread. Read the last few lines of the Israel artillery article

View attachment 47382

I think army should release the results of the each trial of foreign weapons, I will not be suprised if it is not done intentionally.

So that our enemies know what we are buying and work to sabotage our procurements and relationship with our allies?

What a stupid idea!

 

[janme]

So that our enemies know what we are buying and work to sabotage our procurements and relationship with our allies?

What a stupid idea!

Army release RFI before buying, isn't that information already public?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Army release RFI before buying, isn't that information already public?

RFI is a brochure level public gazette. Actual specs for heavy equipment are a closely guarded industrial secret. Something you need to resort to corporate espionage to attain.

Most of our military equipment has classified tiers of military specifications. That's why the Navy War Room Leak (2005) was such a big deal.

 

[WolfPack86]

Artillery guns in Negative List come as a boost to Private defence contractors in India
Artillery guns have been put in a Negative list of items banned from imports recently by the Ministry of Defence (MOD), which comes as a huge boost for the Indian Private defense industry where Army had the requirement for 1,580 towed guns and the majority of the systems might eventually be manufactured locally by major Private contractors like Bharat Forge and Tata Defence which has co-developed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) with India’s State-owned DRDO. Negative List will impact Israel’s Elbit Systems which had won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion for 400 guns to meet Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun requirement, which now might go solely to the ATAGS developed locally in India. Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) requirement made of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted, and 145 ultra-light howitzers. Dhanush 155 mm, 45 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, and ATAGS will make up the requirements of 1,580 towed Artillery Gun Systems. India procured 100 units of K9 Vajra-T 155 mm/52 calibre tracked self-propelled gun systems for the Indian Army but force’s requirement for 300 more guns might come from DRDO which can develop Arjun Chassis based ATAGS ” BHIM” to meet tracked self-propelled gun systems requirements. Ordnance Factory Board developed 155 mm, 52 calibre artillery Truck-mounted gun could be the first choice now which was also displayed at the Defencexpo and has cleared Internal firing trials but they are chances that Army might prefer ATAGS based Truck-mounted gun to cut production cost and to avoid induction of new type of Artillery Gun Systems. Bharat Forge developed Ultra-Light Howitzer (ULH) 155mm/39cal and Super ULH (Titanium) could meet future requirements for ultra-light howitzers over M777 already procured from BAE Systems.

Artillery guns in Negative List come as a boost to Private defence contractors in India – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Don't be too excited. Imports will continue under the label of JV or Local Assembly.

 

[WolfPack86]

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel
Tribune News Service


New Delhi, February 16


Despite the recent success of indigenously made artillery guns, the process of acquiring some 1,580 pieces from a foreign supplier is progressing and is now at the stage of cost negotiation.



According to sources, so far there is no indication to have locally made guns to fill in the numbers for which negotiation is on. “Cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge,” the source said.


1,180 pieces to be assembled in India

• According to sources, cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge. So far there is no discussion on restricting foreign supplies to a particular number and then filing in gaps by making more of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System or the Dhanush.

So far there is no discussion on restricting foreign supplies to a particular number and then filing in gaps by making more of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) and the Dhanush.

The ATAGS is undergoing user trials — a nomenclature for Army trying out the weapon. It is developed by the DRDO in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge. The Defence Acquisition Council has okayed 150 ATAGS, but a contract is yet to be signed.


The Dhanush, a gun made by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), is already being inducted in phases. A total of 114 pieces are on order.


The induction of ‘Sharang’ upgraded artillery pieces has commenced at the just concluded def-expo. A total of 300 of the 130 mm guns of Soviet parentage are being up-gunned to 155 mm by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). The entire lot will be supplied by 2022.


India has some 1,000 of the 130 mm M-46 artillery guns. Around 180 guns were upgraded by Israeli firm Soltam in 2008.

The Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, drawn in 1999, is aimed at acquiring 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027.


The projection includes 814 truck-mounted guns, 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers.


Elbit Systems has won a bid to ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal that could go up to Rs 9,000- 10,000 crore.


The DRDO is pushing to increase local production over import.

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel

Despite the recent success of indigenously made artillery guns, the process of acquiring some 1,580 pieces from a foreign supplier is progressing and is now at the stage of cost negotiation.

www.tribuneindia.com

 

[samsaptaka]

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel
Tribune News Service


New Delhi, February 16


Despite the recent success of indigenously made artillery guns, the process of acquiring some 1,580 pieces from a foreign supplier is progressing and is now at the stage of cost negotiation.



According to sources, so far there is no indication to have locally made guns to fill in the numbers for which negotiation is on. “Cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge,” the source said.


1,180 pieces to be assembled in India

• According to sources, cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge. So far there is no discussion on restricting foreign supplies to a particular number and then filing in gaps by making more of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System or the Dhanush.

So far there is no discussion on restricting foreign supplies to a particular number and then filing in gaps by making more of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) and the Dhanush.

The ATAGS is undergoing user trials — a nomenclature for Army trying out the weapon. It is developed by the DRDO in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge. The Defence Acquisition Council has okayed 150 ATAGS, but a contract is yet to be signed.


The Dhanush, a gun made by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), is already being inducted in phases. A total of 114 pieces are on order.


The induction of ‘Sharang’ upgraded artillery pieces has commenced at the just concluded def-expo. A total of 300 of the 130 mm guns of Soviet parentage are being up-gunned to 155 mm by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). The entire lot will be supplied by 2022.


India has some 1,000 of the 130 mm M-46 artillery guns. Around 180 guns were upgraded by Israeli firm Soltam in 2008.

The Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, drawn in 1999, is aimed at acquiring 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027.


The projection includes 814 truck-mounted guns, 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers.


Elbit Systems has won a bid to ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal that could go up to Rs 9,000- 10,000 crore.


The DRDO is pushing to increase local production over import.

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel

Despite the recent success of indigenously made artillery guns, the process of acquiring some 1,580 pieces from a foreign supplier is progressing and is now at the stage of cost negotiation.

www.tribuneindia.com

Depressing ! So much for "aatmanirhbhar", MoD babus should be sacked !

 

[IndianHawk]

The projection includes 814 truck-mounted guns, 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers.

Out of these 145 ulh are already coming in ! So what is the use of Bharat forge developed ulh??

100 sph are already coming in with k9 vajra but they have options of additional 50 .

Out of 1580 towed guns upgraded m46 will also count ( 180 earlier by soltam and now 300 by ofb ).
Leaving only 1100??

I think this whole field rationalization would change once again.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Out of these 145 ulh are already coming in ! So what is the use of Bharat forge developed ulh??

100 sph are already coming in with k9 vajra but they have options of additional 50 .

Out of 1580 towed guns upgraded m46 will also count ( 180 earlier by soltam and now 300 by ofb ).
Leaving only 1100??

I think this whole field rationalization would change once again.

If you go through the India section in the wiki page of M777, you will get to know that there is a requirement for 500 more ULH. This is where Kalyani developed 155/39 ULH comes into the picture.
Cheaper option to the M777

 

[IndianHawk]

If you go through the India section in the wiki page of M777, you will get to know that there is a requirement for 500 more ULH. This is where Kalyani developed 155/39 ULH comes into the picture.
Cheaper option to the M777

Ya but field rationalization only talks about 145 ulh.
So we must conclude this plan is obsolete now. And something new is in motion.