Indian Army Artillery

[Kunal Biswas]

Would like to share as this seems to be right, Here one has to cannibalized to make other one operational, Even the one is operational is mostly kept as hanger queen as maintaining them is expensive and risky ..

This is common in all arms of Army, It is a good step by Gov to replace these aging non functioning vehicles ..

good old Kraz most of these will be repalced by the new Ashok Leyland FATs!

I took these Pics pics today.

M 46

place - Roorkee cantt

View attachment 9630

 

[Bornubus]

Kraz is a beauty no doubt , it's ruggedness part comes later

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Original design back in 2005

back to original ..?

The new gun's barrel is probably straight from Dhanush.

 

[prateikf]

We should just ditch the old artillery pieces and buy new one's. Hanging on to old things will only result in an An-32 type disaster. It's high time our govt stops treating our soldiers as expendable.

 

[rishivashista13]

Desi Bofors better than original one, says Parrikar -

The Indian version of the controversial but battle proven Bofors artillery guns Dhanush is much better than the original howitzers in terms of its striking range and automated equipment, says Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.The Dhanush guns are being manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) based on the designs of the original Bofors Ag supplied to India in the 1980s.
“Special features of Dhanush guns are that it has 8 km more range than Bofors and is equipped with several other modern systems. We have already placed orders for 114 guns with the OFB,” Parrikar said.
The other features which help the desi Bofors score over the original version include ‘modified double baffle muzzle brake and a modified loading trough to accommodate Bi Modular Charge System (BMCS).”
The gun, a towed howitzer, with a strike range of 38 km, was developed by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kolkata, after going through the design and voluminous documents, running into more than 12,000 pages, which were delivered to India under the first phase of transfer of technology as part of the Bofors gun deal in late 80s. At the moment, the army has been given six prototypes of the gun by the OFB for extensive user trials.
Meanwhile, the army will get a boost in its artillery as the government is also close to signing a contract with the US government for the supply of 145 M777 ultra light howitzers.
The procurement of the $750 howitzers was recently cleared by Parrikar at the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) by Parrikar.
As part of the contract, 25 guns will come to India in a fly-away condition, while the rest would be assembled at the proposed Assembly Integration and Test facility for the weapon system in India in partnership with Mahindra Defence Systems.
The Indian Army has been deprived of a new artillery gun since the late 1980s, when the Bofors scandal happened and India put a stop on all gun procurement from Bofors of Switzerland.
However, the gun performed very well during the 1999 Kargil conflict with Pakistan and hit the fortified Pakistani Army bunkers in direct-fire mode at high altitudes leading to the victory of Indian forces in the limited war.
After the scam, the Indian Army has tried on various occasions to buy new guns but at least four tenders were cancelled due to various reasons.

http://idrw.org/desi-bofors-better-original-one-says-parrikar/

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[Kunal Biswas]

This is a very gud news ..

We have already placed orders for 114 guns with the OFB,” Parrikar said.

http://idrw.org/desi-bofors-better-original-one-says-parrikar/

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======================

If this was a army of few thousand then it would have make sense ..

We should just ditch the old artillery pieces and buy new one's. Hanging on to old things will only result in an An-32 type disaster. It's high time our govt stops treating our soldiers as expendable.

 

[prateikf]

@Kunal
Every year our MOD has been returning thousands of crores of unspent amount back to the Finance Ministry. Hence the argument that there is a lack of funds is simply not true. We have the funds then why are we not able to buy the required equipment ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We are here not talking about a gear which can be bought from market and put in use, One nation need as infrastructure to make sure it kept running after its purchase.

The cost of setting such infrastructure is 10x the cost of combine Artillery pieces bought and will take twice amount of time.

One can shout that India need this or that but complete remain uninformed what needs to keep this things running for a 3 million strong Army working in such complex terrain such as India has to offer,

Given the equipment should work on first place and pass the trails, Having money isn't everything ..

@Kunal
Every year our MOD has been returning thousands of crores of unspent amount back to the Finance Ministry. Hence the argument that there is a lack of funds is simply not true. We have the funds then why are we not able to buy the required equipment ?

 

[Yumdoot]

Much of Budget sanctioning and Budget returns are not represented by any real money in the pocket. So a smart politico can easily have the pliant officers, delay tests and reports and have the priority messed up. End result budget returned.

At times the import parast officers manage to understate the revenue expenditure so their favourite import can be bought. At times the politicos know this and they have a different favourite or in any case the revenue expenditure would take priority for the politico. Net result, the politico will mess up the capital acquisition plans and then later on towards the end of the budget period, have the unspent capital budget rightly merged into the revenue side.

Both these have happened and will happen again.

So merely because the budget is returned does not mean there is an endless tap of money from where the Indian Armed Forces can buy whatever a well meaning enthusiast wishes for.

In any case the needs too have to be assessed. And there is no indication that the Metamorphoses gun or the various trucks are not meeting the needs. Ultimately the Metamorphoses gun is just another piece of towed gun of which the highest numbers (1400) has been mentioned in the Arty rationalization plan.

 

[bengalraider]

Indian Artillery Rationalization plan Update.

1)The Towed artillery rationalization plan for 1580 155/52 guns has more or less been handled by Parrikar with Approvals for 414 Dhanush + 500-600 Upgraded M-46 & Approval in principle for another 500-1000 ATAGS in place.
2)The Initial light mountain gun requirement has also been handled with Approvals for the M777 in place, i fully expect this requirement to rise from the initial 145 to a mnimum of 500 keeping in mind the requirement of new mountain artillery trgiments to support the 17 Corps(new mountain Strike Corps)
3)The Intial Tracked Artillery plan called for 100 tracked guns and this too has been handled with the order of 100 K9 to L&T.There are a lot of indications that this will increase in the final term to some 250-300 Guns.

4)The Wheeled Artillery requirement of some 400 pieces has been scrapped and merged with the Truck mounted howitzer requirement Raising the number of Such guns to be bought to some 1000 from the 814 envisaged earlier. This order has not been awarded yet, however as per Mr Parrikar's promise to close all the Howitzer requirements by end of 2016 it should be awarded soon enough!

 

[mayfair]

Thanks very much for the updates BR! Just a few queries from a noob who has little understanding of these systems.

Indian Artillery Rationalization plan Update.
1)The Towed artillery rationalization plan for 1580 155/52 guns has more or less been handled by Parrikar with Approvals for 414 Dhanush + 500-600 Upgraded M-46 & Approval in principle for another 500-1000 ATAGS in place.

What does it mean for the existing 155mm Howitzer stock? Pahsed out or upgraded to Dhanush specs (if that's even possible). If we are going for M-46 upgrades, how sensible and feasible would it be to upgrade our existing 155mm Howitzers to embellish our Towed artillery inventory? What about Bharat Forge?

2)The Initial light mountain gun requirement has also been handled with Approvals for the M777 in place,

i fully expect this requirement to rise from the initial 145 to a mnimum of 500 keeping in mind the requirement of new mountain artillery trgiments to support the 17 Corps(new mountain Strike Corps)

Bharat Forge have claimed that they can provide Ultra light Howitzers at very competitive price, Raksha Mantri has promised to speak to them about this (Baba Kalyani claimed as such in an interview). Since, M77 production has all but ceased (if my knowledge is correct), are we likely to see desi ULHs augment the light howitzer inventory?

3)The Intial Tracked Artillery plan called for 100 tracked guns and this too has been handled with the order of 100 K9 to L&T.

There are a lot of indications that this will increase in the final term to some 250-300 Guns.

4)The Wheeled Artillery requirement of some 400 pieces has been scrapped and merged with the Truck mounted howitzer requirement Raising the number of Such guns to be bought to some 1000 from the 814 envisaged earlier. This order has not been awarded yet, however as per Mr Parrikar's promise to close all the Howitzer requirements by end of 2016 it should be awarded soon enough!

Now this bit is confusing, what's the difference between tracked an mounted systems? I know that tracked systems are those which operate on a tank-like chassis, with tracks instead of wheels, but they can be viewed as a type of mounted system. So why would we have separate requirements for tracked and mounted systems? Shouldn't Vajra fufill the entire requirement of 1000+ guns? Or are there any plans to revive the Bhim programme?

If we are looking for non-tracked mounted systems, then which ones are available?

 

[Shaitan]

PGK for 155mm artillery being readied. The image is only a placeholder.

 

[tharun]

@Kunal Biswas Do we are replacing BM-21 grad with Pinaka mark-1?
Recently upgraded BM-21 has a range of 40km by russia..and it has 40 projectiles unlike pinaka mk-1 with 45km range...
Why can't we upgrade just rockets.....

 

[Chinmoy]

PGK for 155mm artillery being readied. The image is only a placeholder.

Now this is what I always wanted to see us developing. Thanks for sharing this piece of info @Shaitan .
Along with some high power guns, precision guided ammo are force multiplier for any Artillery div. Hope they do come up with a working kit ASAP.

 

[rishivashista13]

Now this is what I always wanted to see us developing. Thanks for sharing this piece of info @Shaitan .
Along with some high power guns, precision guided ammo are force multiplier for any Artillery div. Hope they do come up with a working kit ASAP.

But they are too costly , so of no use or used very rarely .
Some GPS guided munitions cost about ₹16 lakhs per round .
It will be best if we can find some affordable way of producing these rounds .

By the way how much these Indian rounds cost ?


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[Chinmoy]

But they are too costly , so of no use or used very rarely .
Some GPS guided munitions cost about ₹16 lakhs per round .
It will be best if we can find some affordable way of producing these rounds .

By the way how much these Indian rounds cost ?


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If you compare conventional arty rounds with these smart ammos, you would find that these are much more cost effective then conventional unguided ones. For conventional rounds you need at least a couple of rounds to just round up the exact coordinate of your target. Then too external factors like wind speed and temperature does play a vital role in the flight trajectory. You could safely assume that to take out a steady target like an enemy bunker, you would atleast need to fire around five to six rounds. In case of moving targets like Howitzers, this number goes up even more.
But with smart guided rounds, the number of rounds fired do come down to around two or three at most. And it is much more effective against any enemy battery of field guns.

Moreover as per the report cited by @Shaitan, these are currently being studied by OFB and DRDO, so its cost will definitely be much less then Excalibur rounds.

 

[rishivashista13]

Correction !!!

GPS guided munitions can cost about ₹45 lakhs per round !!!!

Precision guided munitions cost about ₹16 lakh per round .

So , no comparison with unguided munitions for sure .....


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[Maj Gen TK Kaul]

Maj Gen TK Kaul is a hard act to follow. A highly distinguished and accomplished officer, he climbed to the rung of Major General with his extraordinary leadership and military proficiency. His glittering career of almost 40 years in the armed forces saw him take prime positions and responsibilities requiring, strategic ability, initiative, and astuteness while commandeering the Intelligence & Security, Logistics and Operations teams.

 

[bengalraider]

What does it mean for the existing 155mm Howitzer stock? Pahsed out or upgraded to Dhanush specs (if that's even possible). If we are going for M-46 upgrades, how sensible and feasible would it be to upgrade our existing 155mm Howitzers to embellish our Towed artillery inventory? What about Bharat Forge?

Our existing stock comprises only 210 units of 155/39 FH-77 BOFORS guns which are already more than 30 years old. We shall be replacing these guns with DHANUSH 155/52 or ATAGS as soon as our requirements for 155 cal guns are met.
Bharat Forge has just started internal evaluations of it's guns, it has an enviable setup capable of delivering one BHARAT-52 Howitzer in two days. I have no doubt in my mind that BHARAT FORGE should be given some orders for additional guns as soon as it is feasible.

Bharat Forge have claimed that they can provide Ultra light Howitzers at very competitive price, Raksha Mantri has promised to speak to them about this (Baba Kalyani claimed as such in an interview). Since, M77 production has all but ceased (if my knowledge is correct), are we likely to see desi ULHs augment the light howitzer inventory?

We should see Desi ULHs make an entry if they perform satisfactorily in trials. The Indian Army needs At least 500 guns to properly cover all the Passes leading into India from Chinese Occupied Tibet. Artillery is a great leveller in the mountains and light 155/39 guns can rain fire down upon enemies trying to move through narrow passes.

Now this bit is confusing, what's the difference between tracked an mounted systems? I know that tracked systems are those which operate on a tank-like chassis, with tracks instead of wheels, but they can be viewed as a type of mounted system. So why would we have separate requirements for tracked and mounted systems? Shouldn't Vajra fufill the entire requirement of 1000+ guns? Or are there any plans to revive the Bhim programme?

If we are looking for non-tracked mounted systems, then which ones are available?

There are a number of Questions here i'll answer them one by one
Q 1) what's the difference between tracked an mounted systems?
A- Tracked Systems are heavy systems built onto the Chassis of a Tank/armored vehicle . In these the Gun typically lies in an enclosed(M-109) or semi enclosed(Arjun Catapult) Turret which provides a high degree of protection from small arms/mortar fire. Typically Tracked guns move just behind tank columns and provide long range suppressive and anti battery fire to support armored thrusts.
That said Tracked SPGs are expensive heavy beasts and typically for us we shall be unable to use them in terrain other than the flat plains of the punjab and the Thar.
Mounted systems provide much of the same mobility that a tracked SPG provides at a much lower cost . In doing so however it also provides much lesser protection, these systems are also much lighter(air portable in some cases) than tracked SPGs which menas they can operate in more demanding terrain as well.

Q2)why would we have separate requirements for tracked and mounted systems? Shouldn't Vajra fufill the entire requirement of 1000+ guns? Or are there any plans to revive the Bhim programme?
A- We have separate requirements keeping in mind the varied terrian across which we will need SPG support, The requirement has been drafted keeping in mind the capabilities of any possible OPFOR and the limitations of our Budgets as well.
Vajra cannot fulfil the entire SPG requirement, as of now there is no plan to revive the BHIM. We had tried getting the K9 turret onto the Arjun Chassis in 2012 AFAIK the Koreans refused.

Q3)If we are looking for non-tracked mounted systems, then which ones are available?
Please find pictures of the three frontrunners in Mounted gun systems in running for the IA requirement below

TATA DENEL-T5-52

AL+L&T +NEXTER CAESAR

MAHINDRA+BAe ARCHER

 

[bengalraider]

@Kunal Biswas Do we are replacing BM-21 grad with Pinaka mark-1?
Recently upgraded BM-21 has a range of 40km by russia..and it has 40 projectiles unlike pinaka mk-1 with 45km range...
Why can't we upgrade just rockets.....

We shall be replacing/ augmenting our entire rocket artillery inventory with PINAKA variants. There is a long range MLRS in development as well to augment the SMERCH units by 2020.