Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[methos]

And wrt your tall claims on T 90S having better armor - PROVE IT.Give us the chart showing what kind of materials in what quantities went into both systems and then talk .And if you can't (which I know you can not by the way),then don't bother replying to my comment.

Both the T-90S Bshima and the Arjun use Kanchan armour, as mentioned already earlier by Kunal Biswas. The main difference is that the T-90S has a much better turret shape with much smaller weakspots.

- If Russia has not completely transferred tech to India , then what is the meaning of signing TOT ??

ToT does not mean you get all sorts of technologies and are afterwards able to completely manufacture any components of it. There are two mayor factors people here are never taking into account when complaining about the lack of ToT:

1.) What technologies actually were part of the ToT agreement? If the Indian government did not request and pay for some technologies, the Indian government will not get these. If the Russians betrayed you, would the Indian government still order new tanks instead of canceling the orders and sueing UVZ?

2.) With whom did the Indian government make the ToT agreement? Probably with UVZ or Rosoboronexport. But not all parts inside the T-90 are made by UVZ, many components are made by different companies and UVZ simply buys them in order to create their T-90. The gun or the armour are not made by UVZ, so they couldn't even give you said technolgies even if they wanted. Some components, like most electronics and optics of the FCS aren't even made in Russia, but in Belarus.

It's like making a ToT agreement with Ford/Renault/VW and afterwards complaining that you weren't given the technology to produce modern tires! FordRenault/VW do buy tires from different companies instead of making their own.

 

[p2prada]

You can not prove any of your tall claims.I,have been,following this forum since quite some time and I know what kind of a 'person' you really are, so spare us your rhetorics.

Tens of thousands of times. Both in quality of the gun as well as a superior shell. Been posted so many times that I have lost count. Go back and check. There are three top officers who claim the same.

There is in no way T 90S has better night firing capabilities....PERIOD.

Go watch the entire video. Go read up on what Thermal Imager is.

And wrt your tall claims on T 90S having better armor - PROVE IT.Give us the chart showing what kind of materials in what quantities went into both systems and then talk .And if you can't (which I know you can not by the way),then don't bother replying to my comment.

You don't need figures. Simple LOS figures + superiority of Russian designs. On Indian tanks, the LOS is bigger and has the same Kanchan armor. Plus, there is a nice big package of heavy ERA on every T-90. Basically, T-90 is slightly better than the Arjun in internal armour and then carries ERA on top of that.

 

[p2prada]

despite the factual status of your post, i do have a concern here, I think Indians are justified in their demands when they ask Russians to comply the dynamics of the contract.

Think about it, They purchased T-90 as a complete weapon system which is marketed/ promoted by export Russian monopoly Rosoboronexport and manufacturer UVZ, so getting equipment from subsidiaries/ integrate them in the tank as asked by client, fulfill the TOT stipulations, is the responsibility of Rosoboronexport at the end of the day. Why should Indian establishment contact every armour making entity in Russia? Rosoboronexprt should do this.

ToT agreements have to be signed with every design house holding the technology. Rosoboronexport is just the point of contact.

In India too, DRDO, NAL extra have to sign an extensive ToT agreement with the manufacturer HAL if they want anything done. And even in such instances there will be delays because the labor from NAL will have to train the labor from HAL on using said ToT. It is never done overnight, that is practically impossible.

Take the MKI for example, the first contract for 50 aircraft was signed in 1996, but ToT contract was signed only in 2000. It is no different for T-90. We signed the first contract in 2001 and the ToT agreement only in Aug 2008. Until then we were only assembling the T-90s supplied in kits. It merely helped that Sukhoi and other aerospace companies were more mature exporters in comparison to UVZ and other tank companies. Brahmos ToT took 7 years after all agreements were signed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That was the point, But again the cavity of frontal Armour for Arjun is more than T-90 made in India, Amount also count ..

T-72/90 design philosophy is coming from plain of Europe, Where Soviet intend head on counter NATO Armour, Despite such geometry its only convincing on theory ..

Both the T-90S Bshima and the Arjun use Kanchan armour, as mentioned already earlier by Kunal Biswas. The main difference is that the T-90S has a much better turret shape with much smaller weakspots

========================

Either you are not studied abt this case or you are simply making a faulty conclusion without proper research ..

ToT deals does not finalized like an car sale, They are finalized in years, The money for such part by part tot was given by Gov of India ..

Russian simply cheated after finalizing the deal, An quality of procuring imported stuff ..

ToT does not mean you get all sorts of technologies and are afterwards able to completely manufacture any components of it. There are two mayor factors people here are never taking into account when complaining about the lack of ToT:

It's like making a ToT agreement with Ford/Renault/VW and afterwards complaining that you weren't given the technology to produce modern tires! FordRenault/VW do buy tires from different companies instead of making their own.

 

[methos]

Either you are not studied abt this case or you are simply making a faulty conclusion without proper research ..

Show me the contracts which say that India bought also the technology required for the FCS, armour and gun. Otherwise I believe in what appears to be more logical - a contract which did not ask for these technologies. Else the Indian government would have taken actions... just look at the hundreds of Western companies which were at some point of time banned in India (like Bofors, Denel, Rheinmetall, IMI, etc).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is a dedicated thread at DFI regarding, T-90 missile firing fiasco ..

You can read that thread up ..

================

Tot was involved on almost all the parts of the tank, Read up the first post of the thread, Only 40% is given till date ..

Show me the contracts which say that India bought also the technology required for the FCS, armour and gun. Otherwise I believe in what appears to be more logical - a contract which did not ask for these technologies. Else the Indian government would have taken actions...

 

[p2prada]

Show me the contracts which say that India bought also the technology required for the FCS, armour and gun. Otherwise I believe in what appears to be more logical - a contract which did not ask for these technologies. Else the Indian government would have taken actions... just look at the hundreds of Western companies which were at some point of time banned in India (like Bofors, Denel, Rheinmetall, IMI, etc).

I don't know about the FCS, but Russia denied armor ToT so we are using Kanchan. Gun ToT has already been given. This was confirmed by OFB years ago.

 

[p2prada]

Such an article should kill stupid assertions.

The Hindu News Update Service

First T-90 tank to roll out of Indian factory Aug 24

New Delhi (IANS): After a delay of one year, the first T-90 tank manufactured in India under licence will roll out August 24, 2009.

"The first T-90 tank will roll out Aug 24," said a defence ministry official, requesting anonymity.

The licensed production of the tanks have been kicked off only after the stalemate with Russia over transfer of technology was resolved.

After the concern expressed by the Indian establishment over the delay in the execution of various defence deals, including the T-90 tanks, Russia has reassured India that the delivery will now be on schedule.

"We have repeatedly emphasised the timely delivery of the procured items. They (Russian officials) have reassured that supply of T-90s will remain on schedule. First 50 T-90s will roll out soon," the official said.

Delays in the manufacturing of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank and Pakistan{gt}s decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine prompted India to order 310 T-90s in 2001. Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, near Chennai.

An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s. This, however, was delayed due to Russia's reluctance to transfer technology, prompting India to purchase another 300 tanks from Russia last year.

However, the localised production of the tanks had not begun till 2008.

"Last year, we did not make a single tank. At least, a beginning has been made," the official said.

 

[p2prada]

First batch of indigenous T-90s that rolled out of HVF in Avadi.

August 24, 2009.

Livefist: Photos: First Batch of Indian Licensed T-90 Tanks Roll Out

 

[JBH22]

There will be more people from Armed forces come forward to tell, I welcome this article as most of the things told by Serving officials ..

T-90S scam is perhaps largest in Indian history since 1947 ..

Kunal why are you so against the T-90S?

See whatever happened its the top brass that should be held accountable, with statements like this it serves no purpose.

Frankly speaking if Russians have not done full ToT who is to be blamed?

Are we that weak that there cannot be arm twisting from our end. Just see how China copy their tech without any remorse.

 

[Blood+]

Tens of thousands of times. Both in quality of the gun as well as a superior shell. Been posted so many times that I have lost count. Go back and check. There are three top officers who claim the same.





Go watch the entire video. Go read up on what Thermal Imager is.



You don't need figures. Simple LOS figures + superiority of Russian designs. On Indian tanks, the LOS is bigger and has the same Kanchan armor. Plus, there is a nice big package of heavy ERA on every T-90. Basically, T-90 is slightly better than the Arjun in internal armour and then carries ERA on top of that.

When did I ever mention anything about the main gun and FSAPDS rounds....huh??You said that Russian armor is better than what is used in Arjun - so onus of proving your claim lies squarely on you and you only.

And now you are claiming that Indian manufactured T 90S has greater LOS thickness than the original Russian supplied ones - may I ask you how did you reach to that particular conclusion??Did you measure them??
And besides,according to @Kunal bhai the Arjun MkI front turret armor LOS is supposed to be circa ~95cm at 0* from gun centerline axis which should give a LOS value of ~85cm or so at 30*.......now for T 90S,the LOS is ~80cm at 0* but due to its unique turret shape it's reduced to circa ~64cm at 30* - so if both tanks are using the same armor package,then how can the base armor of T 90S is better than that of Arjun is beyond me.

And as far as mounting heavy ERA tiles goes,you know that these are add on dynamic protection systems and the Arjuns can also be retrofitted with them if deemed necessary.

 

[p2prada]

Frankly speaking if Russians have not done full ToT who is to be blamed?

There was an interview with OFB Chief sometime ago. He himself said OFB manufactures 85% of the T-90. In his 2011 interview with Shukla he is also quoted saying that the Army is yet to provide the indent for the manufacture of the next batch of tanks.

I even posted pics of the indigenous tanks along with the article about indigenous manufacture of the tanks.

Getting to the conclusion requires common sense.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Friend, You knew me since old gold days of MP.net ..

I have already told you why and so many here did the same ..

I wont like to tell same again, Thanks ..

It must be bashed to death, As long as its an inferior product and risk crews life ..

You don`t understand the context of this thread, Its not about marketing or business but security of my Nation .. ..

I would like to add a fact, Recently in my Delhi tour i meet my old friends, They are all from Armour unit and operate T-90 Bhishma, They are not exactly happy with it, One of them did said that If a T-90 get damage, They have to canablised others to make the damage one work, T-90 reputation is not as bright as spoken high in media ..

Russian lobby is trying its best as always to kill National product, Its good for there business and coffin for our Crews ..
Not its up to your mind, You like to stick with your view or think abt the grim situation ..

Don`t tell me this, Tell this to those family member who have lost there kins in those junks in peace time ..

And do ask the how is Arjun doing to members of 43rd Armoured Regiment & 75th Armoured Regiment ..

The barrels made by OFB as well as Russians onces, OFB barrels were faulty and Russian were over used hence explode ..

Early batches of Indian Made T-90 use those same barrels, They are just time bomb waiting to explode ..

=====================
I suggest you to talk to professionals ( Those who are involve in the regiment or Arjun ) directly to know things in details ..

Kunal why are you so against the T-90S?.

 

[Blood+]

Tens of thousands of times. Both in quality of the gun as well as a superior shell. Been posted so many times that I have lost count. Go back and check. There are three top officers who claim the same.





Go watch the entire video. Go read up on what Thermal Imager is.



You don't need figures. Simple LOS figures + superiority of Russian designs. On Indian tanks, the LOS is bigger and has the same Kanchan armor. Plus, there is a nice big package of heavy ERA on every T-90. Basically, T-90 is slightly better than the Arjun in internal armour and then carries ERA on top of that.

When did I ever mention a single word about the main gun and FSAPDS rounds....huh??I know only too well that the main gun is the single most serious weakness of Arjun tank,since it's a dated design whose GSQR was fabricated decades ago and the FSAPDS rounds date back from mid 80s and hasn't been improved ever since!!

You said that Russian armor is better than what is used in Arjun - so onus of proving your claim lies squarely on you and you only.

And now you are claiming that Indian manufactured T 90S has greater LOS thickness than the original Russian supplied ones - may I ask you how did you reach to that particular conclusion??Did you measure them??
And besides,according to @Kunal bhai the Arjun MkI front turret armor LOS is supposed to be circa ~95cm at 0* from gun centerline axis which should give a LOS value of ~85cm or so at 30*.......now for T 90S,the LOS is ~80cm at 0* but due to its unique turret shape it's reduced to circa ~64cm at 30* - so if both tanks are using the same armor package,then how can the base armor of T 90S is better than that of Arjun is beyond me.

And as far as mounting heavy ERA tiles goes,you know that these are add on dynamic protection systems and the Arjuns can also be retrofitted with them if deemed necessary.

 

[p2prada]

And now you are claiming that Indian manufactured T 90S has greater LOS thickness than the original Russian supplied ones - may I ask you how did you reach to that particular conclusion??Did you measure them??
And besides,according to @Kunal bhai the Arjun MkI front turret armor LOS is supposed to be circa ~95cm at 0* from gun centerline axis which should give a LOS value of ~85cm or so at 30*.......now for T 90S,the LOS is ~80cm at 0* but due to its unique turret shape it's reduced to circa ~64cm at 30* - so if both tanks are using the same armor package,then how can the base armor of T 90S is better than that of Arjun is beyond me.

LOS is different from actual size. Shells travel in a straight line. Go check up on Damian's and Dejawolf's posts in the main threads.

And as far as mounting heavy ERA tiles goes,you know that these are add on dynamic protection systems and the Arjuns can also be retrofitted with them if deemed necessary.

No. It requires huge modifications in engine and transmission. That's why Arjun Mk2 has them, not Mk1.

 

[Jagdish58]

Both the T-90S Bshima and the Arjun use Kanchan armour, as mentioned already earlier by Kunal Biswas. The main difference is that the T-90S has a much better turret shape with much smaller weakspots.




ToT does not mean you get all sorts of technologies and are afterwards able to completely manufacture any components of it. There are two mayor factors people here are never taking into account when complaining about the lack of ToT:

1.) What technologies actually were part of the ToT agreement? If the Indian government did not request and pay for some technologies, the Indian government will not get these. If the Russians betrayed you, would the Indian government still order new tanks instead of canceling the orders and sueing UVZ?

2.) With whom did the Indian government make the ToT agreement? Probably with UVZ or Rosoboronexport. But not all parts inside the T-90 are made by UVZ, many components are made by different companies and UVZ simply buys them in order to create their T-90. The gun or the armour are not made by UVZ, so they couldn't even give you said technolgies even if they wanted. Some components, like most electronics and optics of the FCS aren't even made in Russia, but in Belarus.

It's like making a ToT agreement with Ford/Renault/VW and afterwards complaining that you weren't given the technology to produce modern tires! FordRenault/VW do buy tires from different companies instead of making their own.

Im not blameing Russia , they are doing the seller job . Sometimes delay & get india into bargain table . Our frustration is on Arms lobby middle men in India , Negligent leadership & senseless import minded armed force . Not to forget slow defence PSU

No country will give 100% tech transfer even fully paid for there will be a mole for sure just to keep the buyer on toes

All we need is to use Indian private industry , lot of people critize china for reverse engineering military hardware but they are nuilding their home turf defence industry by hook or crook

India should come up with policy of give first opportunity to indian industry like FICV , if they delay govt can penalize easily

were they able to fine Russia in INS Vikramaditya delay

And on tires we belive in MRF:thumb:

 

[Blood+]

LOS is different from actual size. Shells travel in a straight line. Go check up on Damian's and Dejawolf's posts in the main threads.



No. It requires huge modifications in engine and transmission. That's why Arjun Mk2 has them, not Mk1.

I know that an unguided projectile follows mostly a linear trajectory in the x axis.What I wanted to convey was that facing the enemy frontally doesn't necessarily mean that you will sustain heats from 0* angle all the time....a round could hit you from 20* or 30* or from any angle possible even if you are facing your enemy at a general frontal position.In that case the round has to go through laser thickness of armor than it would have to if it had struck you at 0*.
There is a reason why everyone says that an AFV has to be protected through the 60* frontal arc - it's not primarily meant to provide protection against flanking attacks but to protect them from the front since even of the enemy is standing on generally your frontal position,he could still engage your sides, albeit at a steeper angle.I hope I cleared my point.

 

[sayareakd]

P2P you are the one who said that because sardar officer on T90SM, IA is going to buy that tank.

 

[p2prada]

P2P you are the one who said that because sardar officer on T90SM, IA is going to buy that tank.

Oh, you remember? See how right I was.

 

[sayareakd]

Oh, you remember? See how right I was.

lol, yeah you were right................:thumb: