Indian Army Armored Vehicles

Kunal Biswas

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You don`t understand the context of this thread, Its not about marketing or business but security of my Nation ..

You are also not well understood the timeline and mass purchase of Scammed Russian hardware ..

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In you ' Defense ', T-90S were indeed imported in similar quantity as of Enemy tanks as a stop gap, But Not the senseless mass purchase afterwards ..

So in other way: good marketing and sales menageres in Russia :)

Russia dictate sucht trades for India becouse IA have no other option -just buing more and more T-90S as "gap filter".
And all is cause by to long Arjun program.
and don't blame T-90S tank. It's exatly that tank what was needed by IA.
b) T-90S is guite good tank. Of course it have some flaws but it can be "fixed" by modernisation right now. Only interesting think is indian Kanhan armour quality as protection.

As I said: Arjun program is too long and the result is buing next T-90S on Russian rulles. Becouse IA have no other option in fact.
 

mikhail

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So in other way: good marketing and sales menageres in Russia :)
And this trade whit so many problems for IA was possible only thanks to pointles and too long Arjun program.
In fact Arjun is developing since when -1980s? And what result? Buing T-72M1 Aleya. Ok, Arjun is still developing in whole 1990s, Pakistan bought VERY modern T-80U, so India must buy in 2000s T-90S and countrbalance for Pakistani tanks.
Arjun during whole 2000s is still developing (word long time record was taken here...). Pakistani developed quite good Chineese-Ukrianian-Pakistani Al-Chalid and Al-Chalid1, 2010 India is still without ended Arjun on aceptable level.

Russia dictate sucht trades for India becouse IA have no other option -just buing more and more T-90S as "gap filter".
And all is cause by to long Arjun program.
first of all no offence but your English suck!!i have had some real hard time understanding what you wrote in that post.
secondly,Al-Khalid-I is no doubt a decent tank but it's nowhere close to Arjun Mk-1 in terms of armor protection,mobility,superior rifled main gun with higher level of accuracy,better F.C.S.,better engine etc.
have you seen the level of protection offered in Al-Khalid-I?i would say rather choose your PT-91 Twardy over this tank any time any day(PT-91 is itself an obsolete onbe with little all around armor protection with rather primitive F.C.S.).
Arjun Mk-2 is in a league of it's own.it is practically the best indigenous tank available in the entire South Eastern Asia at the moment.
Now in case you haven't heard about the Kanchan armor i am providing you with some...
Kanchan armour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11428
 

sayareakd

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and don't blame T-90S tank. It's exatly that tank what was needed by IA.
You got quality on cost level IMHO. And I suppose that:
a) thre was no third option for IA in whole 2000s. - T-72M1 made "base" and it's supply simmilar to T-90S so whole think was cheper for IA.
b) T-90S is guite good tank. Of course it have some flaws but it can be "fixed" by modernisation right now. Only interesting think is indian Kanhan armour quality as protection.

As I said: Arjun program is too long and the result is buing next T-90S on Russian rulles. Becouse IA have no other option in fact.
It is not about cost, it is about wining war. What is point of having tank which cannot even work in Rajasthan.
 

militarysta

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It is not about cost, it is about wining war.
So You can't win war in circa 1000 T-90S but on ~240 Arjun it will be possible? C'mon..


What is point of having tank which cannot even work in Rajasthan.
In what way "cannot even work".
99% of those problems can be rapair by simple modernisation. Just FCS and AC system, and APU maybe. That's all -it's not hight tech... (exept FCS)
If there are some problems whit agrement whit Russians TOT then problem is on Indian site - why anybody doesn't check TOT in 2001 and in 2006?
Or again - IA hasn't choice and must taken T-90S as it exist becouse Arjun program have serious problems...
 

sayareakd

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So You can't win war in circa 1000 T-90S but on ~240 Arjun it will be possible? C'mon..
Not with 240 but can do it with 800 Arjuns rather then 1000 T90s.

In what way "cannot even work".
99% of those problems can be rapair by simple modernisation. Just FCS and AC system, and APU maybe. That's all -it's not hight tech... (exept FCS)
If there are some problems whit agrement whit Russians TOT then problem is on Indian site - why anybody doesn't check TOT in 2001 and in 2006?
Or again - IA hasn't choice and must taken T-90S as it exist becouse Arjun program have serious problems...
you have no idea, earlier tank drivers have fainted and fire control computers were cooked up in heat.

If you guys so much like T90s then please take it from Russia.
 

militarysta

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You don`t understand the context of this thread, Its not about marketing or business but security of my Nation ..

You are also not well understood the timeline and mass purchase of Scammed Russian hardware ..
Nope, I understand perfectly. IA hasn't choice in 2000s couse Arjun program falitures. And IA must buy tanks somwhere. Obvious choice was T-90S whit hull preatty close to T-72M1 Aleya,and almoust the same supply and manuals.

And Indian security (which was IMHO the key for the world security as china countrballance) is depend on this what you can buy and what produce in one place.
In fact India is ugly market for western companies - helly hight corruption, wery difficult TOT needed by India, and rather low quality of making on licence products (licenced weapons). And result of this quality is pulling to the western companies. In fact many of them are escaping form Indian tardes. Trades are done by decades, many violent changes, result is always not sure, and Indian rulles needs to product as many as it's possible in India - what is very good of course, BUT not any company will allowed for sucht action. For example MTU... For other hand: India and IA is to big market, and possible key customer for many companies, so in fact they want to be IN India (becouse they must be) and OUTSIDE indian TOT (becouse they are to heavy and too difficult to done - espcially quality problems of making in india parts or componenets....).
BTW: I don't want to be rude, im just repeating what was possible to hear on MSPO in Poland in last year...
 

militarysta

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If you guys so much like T90s then please take it from Russia.
No thanks!
Poland is now leopard-2A4 and 2A5 user, and nobody here want's use soviet-style tanks ;)

BTW: Polish PT-91MZ (Malayesia) is in most aspects better then erly T-90S and Indian T-90S, only the main armour is worse. So rather polish army and industry have good compare between this what was possible to achive by T-72 modernisation and buing western tanks...
 

JBH22

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This whole saga of bashing T-90 is getting boring, I would rather see IA equipped with T-90 rather than outdated T-72/ T-55.

Again can we afford a two-tiered amoured forces.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I am sorry, But you haven't understood my post ..

Nope, I understand perfectly. IA hasn't choice in 2000s couse Arjun program falitures. And IA must buy tanks somwhere. Obvious choice was T-90S whit hull preatty close to T-72M1 Aleya,and almoust the same supply and manuals.
 

Kunal Biswas

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It must be bashed to death, As long as its an inferior product and risk crews life ..

This whole saga of bashing T-90 is getting boring, I would rather see IA equipped with T-90 rather than outdated T-72/ T-55.
 

sayareakd

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I have followed T-90 news for years now and there was no such thing ever mentioned.

We need ToT if we are to put our armor in the tank.

Given in 2008. We made our first barrel in 2009. The tanks supplied to the army in 2007 had their barrels replaced with the new one.

They did not make a Thar desert compatible AC. It is better if DRDO makes it, since we can put the same thing on our other vehicles with dedicated modifications. It can be used on our FMBT in the future, instead of starting one from scratch.

Solved in 2006.

T-90 has something that was considered better at the time. It has batteries that power the turret when the engine is switched off. Now, electronics have taken over and need more power, so APU is needed. Current APU in the tank is a 1KW system that allows communications.

The batteries recharge when the engine turns on again.

What happened?

It is Indian/Israeli.

It was an unrealistic demand from MoD. They wanted new ammo in 2010 at 2000 prices. How will they get it? That's where the 4X story comes from. Add a bit of sensationalism, and you have a nice T-90 bashing story.

It doesn't really change things.
I didnt find other link, strange i read it in newspaper.

But here is Nov 2011 news report

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."
This was also posted in Business Standard.
Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall
 

sayareakd

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This whole saga of bashing T-90 is getting boring, I would rather see IA equipped with T-90 rather than outdated T-72/ T-55.

Again can we afford a two-tiered amoured forces.
yeah it is boring for you, but think about those who's lives are online, if same things would have happen with Arjun, all of the newspapers would be hunting for their lives.

No one talks about commission agents, dealers and corrupt officers, who are responsible for this. From Russia with love.
 

militarysta

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first of all no offence but your English suck!!
I know, sorry for that.

secondly,Al-Khalid-I is no doubt a decent tank but it's nowhere close to Arjun Mk-1 in terms of armor protection,mobility,superior rifled main gun with higher level of accuracy,better F.C.S.,better engine etc.
bullshit, bullshit, bullshit
Sory for being rude.
Armour coud be very possible couse the same idea (+ Pakistani have opurtinies to copied T-80UD armour, and IA what "pattern" have?)
Mobility in Al-Chalid is very good couse ukrainian power-pack - in other way "if any" then it is very small difrences between Arjun and Al-Chalidy mobility.
Gun in Al-Chalid is not in any single aspect wores then in Arjun. And Al-Chalid have good amunition in opposite to Arjun - which stil, haven't good APFSDS...
FCS in Al-Chalid is based on SAVAN-15 and it's some modes. And it's preatty close to Arjun Mk.II FCS.

have you seen the level of protection offered in Al-Khalid-I?
Yes, and it's preatty good.

PT-91 is itself an obsolete onbe with little all around armor protection with rather primitive F.C.S.).
Polish PT-91? maybe.
Malayesian PT-91MZ? This tank is on level beyond most of the Indian T-90S (exept main armour). And FCS in PT-91MZ is in fact better then in Arjun Mk.I.

Arjun Mk-2 is in a league of it's own.
:shocked::rofl::lol:

it is practically the best indigenous tank available in the entire South Eastern Asia at the moment.
ROTFL

Exept:
M1A1 in Australia
Oplot-M in Thailand
Leopard-2A4 mod in Singapour
Al-Chalid-1 in Pakistan..
Sory for harsh turth...
 

JBH22

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It must be bashed to death, As long as its an inferior product and risk crews life ..
Take it back into the context, the T-90 was acquired at a time when Arjun was no where in sight.

Is it so easy after acquiring more than 1000 tanks we decide to take a massive U-turn and go to Arjun?

yeah it is boring for you, but think about those who's lives are online, if same things would have happen with Arjun, all of the newspapers would be hunting for their lives.

No one talks about commission agents, dealers and corrupt officers, who are responsible for this. From Russia with love.
Tell that to army guys who already place their bets on T-90.
 

sayareakd

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Take it back into the context, the T-90 was acquired at a time when Arjun was no where in sight.

Is it so easy after acquiring more than 1000 tanks we decide to take a massive U-turn and go to Arjun?



Tell that to army guys who already place their bets on T-90.
I meet one such guy, he was tank commander in black uniform at Defexpo2012, he was amazing, he said we told GOI that give us anything, but we dont want Arjun . Then he ask the IA guy who was on Arjun as to how this tank is and how it perform in Rajasthan, he said it is good tank.

So without actually finding out how the Arjun tank is he has made up his mind.......:scared2:
 

JBH22

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I meet one such guy, he was tank commander in black uniform at Defexpo2012, he was amazing, he said we told GOI that give us anything, but we dont want Arjun . Then he ask the IA guy who was on Arjun as to how this tank is and how it perform in Rajasthan, he said it is good tank.

So without actually finding out how the Arjun tank is he has made up his mind.......:scared2:
See my point is that we do not have all the facts.

Additionally it has become a recent hype for Russian hardware bashing inspite of these "defence" journalist having no brain.

T-90 imho is a good tank not best one, but then its the crew/training that makes the difference. Having spent huge amounts of money to induct this tank in our armed forces it is not economically feasible to get away with them.

Arjun MK2 has not even secured large orders from Army despite appearing to be good product.
 

sayareakd

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See my point is that we do not have all the facts.

Additionally it has become a recent hype for Russian hardware bashing inspite of these "defence" journalist having no brain.

T-90 imho is a good tank not best one, but then its the crew/training that makes the difference. Having spent huge amounts of money to induct this tank in our armed forces it is not economically feasible to get away with them.

Arjun MK2 has not even secured large orders from Army despite appearing to be good product.
that is what i am saying they dont want to have the product they want to judge it on its past and not how it is to the T90 tank.
 

p2prada

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I didnt find other link, strange i read it in newspaper.

But here is Nov 2011 news report


This was also posted in Business Standard.
Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall
This is a repost of pre-2008 news.

I once posted a 2004 news and a 2010 news with the same content on this very forum a long time ago which contained information about the Catherine issue. It was the exact same thing just copy-pasted.

In the early years, when we bought the T-90, we bought small numbers and we did not sign any ToT agreement. In 2006 we asked for more tanks and that's when discussions for ToT and full scale license production really started. Basically, the first contract for some ~300 tanks were a trial run before ordering more tanks. So, we ordered the tanks in 2001, got them all in 2004-05 and put them through the most grueling tests possible in war like conditions until 2006 when the decision to go for the T-90 was properly implemented.

In Aug 2008 we clinched a deal with the Russians for full ToT. Before that we had only a license assembly from kits. The issue with gun barrels was for the early batch of tanks. That's because we used to wear the barrels out early during full scale testing of the tanks where tanks used to finish 1/3rd of their engine life in just one year. We used to fire all our ammunition and deplete it as well, the result was the depletion of our ammo reserves. During this time, we had no real agreement with Russia for supply of barrels, so OFB made makeshift barrels until the real stuff came from Russia.

After December 2008, ToT started coming in and OFB started making real barrels for the army. That's when the army also started accepting the first batch of Indian made T-90s in 2009. This tank came with Indian barrel (made with Russian ToT) and with Kanchan armour.

With the completion of ToT, the T-90s started full scale production at 100 tanks/year and 85% of the tank is currently made in HVF. The rest come from Indian and foreign suppliers, like Catherine from Russia (reexported from France), navigation systems from BEL with Israeli license, ECU from an Indian company under contract by DRDO and so on. The next objective is to push production from 100 to 150 a year.

I am not sure if the new contract for 300 odd T-90MS is license production, assembly or fully produced.

As for the numbers, we know of three contracts very well. One was in 2001 for 300+, the second in 2006 for 300+ and the third in 2008 for 300+. Overall, the idea is to buy and make the T-90s in batches. So, the total tanks is somewhere around 1000 contracted for and delivered. OFB was complaining about Indian Army delaying the construction of a fourth batch of 300+ last year, IIRC. So, over 1300 are contracted for. After this batch, there may be the last batch of 300+ remaining followed by the new order of 300+ T-90MS for the North-East.

I don't know if the last batch of 600-700 tanks will come with T-90MS type improvements, all or none.

So, this is where IA's T-90 stands at. Don't believe every article that you read. They don't give a clear picture. Even Shukla has admitted that he was wrong about half the stuff he used to write about like lack of ToT and capability of the tank (like Catherine) after he toured HVF, Avadi. Do you know that there has not been a single negative news about T-90 from Shukla since he toured the HVF factory.
 

JBH22

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There are some +600 T-90 operational in IA, Not 1000 ..

Out of those 600, 300 of the first batch are older version, The rest are made in India but have issues :

Malfunctioning Thermal sight for commander, Lack APU, It lack AC and it lack AP rounds ..

================

The rest 1000 are projected to be made in India, Which is not started as stated in article and as per OFB admin at the factory, That is again because only 40% of tot is shared by Russians, I hope it get scraped ..

Where as Arjun MK1 so does MK2 has no issues, MK1 already proved it superiority over T-90 in trails ..



================

I would like to add a fact, Recently in my Delhi tour i meet my old friends, They are all from Armour unit and operate T-90 Bhishma, They are not exactly happy with it, One of them did said that If a T-90 get damage, They have to canablised others to make the damage one work, T-90 reputation is not as bright as spoken high in media ..

Russian lobby is trying its best as always to kill National product, Its good for there business and coffin for our Crews ..
Not its up to your mind, You like to stick with your view or think abt the grim situation ..
See in a perfect world Arjun MK2 would be inducted boosting so called local capabilities in tank building. Now imagine having invested so much of national treasure is it economically feasible just to get rid of the T-90. Imagine factories set up in TN just to make that tank, simulators and crew training.

As I see its practically impossible to make a U Turn at this juncture, I would like to believe otherwise though.

Of course if MoD/Arjun is serious about the Arjun MK2 then its another thing, but as we see nobody is quite interested about desi product inspite all the hypes.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Don`t tell me this, Tell this to those family member who have lost there kins in those junks in peace time ..

And do ask the how is Arjun doing to members of 43rd Armoured Regiment & 75th Armoured Regiment ..

Now imagine having invested so much of national treasure is it economically feasible just to get rid of the T-90. Imagine factories set up in TN just to make that tank, simulators and crew training.

As I see its practically impossible to make a U Turn at this juncture, I would like to believe otherwise though.
 

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