Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

rvjpheonix

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Fact is Iaf made a mess of the ASR and that is the reason LCA took so long. They merged the ITR of the mirage 2000 and the STR of f 16 together in an airframe the size of mig 21. And ADA made a design to try and achieve this based on the recommendation from dassault. Then they again changed the ASR to include BVRs and strike capabilty which required major rework of wings which led to weight gain and thus the couple of degrees performance shortfalls.
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

What of it?

Can one man produce an aircraft or is it by a team?
LCA Tejas is our own effort, so I considered it.

Without Kurt Tank, HAL won't be able to design / make HF-24 in 60s.

But today, HAL/ADA can design / make without such other (foreign) guys.
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

I only know as much as the article by SAurav Jha with quotes from Dr Tamilmani
Saurav Jha's Blog : The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'
I dunno why you are asking me ... :confused:
Im sure that this has been posted before .
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
According to the article the air intakes need no design review as the Kaveri was meant to have the airflow of the F414 to begin with ...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Things..
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/dow..._AirborneLiquidCirculationSystem_Specs_20.pdf
First of all, I am a laymen, there is nothing to hide in it.

Second, I asked it because few members said it on DFI that yet HAL have to design and develop Tejas mk2 aircraft.

I raised this issue at that time by asking now what HAL have to design / develop for Tejas.

They finished nearly everything.

Only they have to do is, try to accommodate GE F-414 engine in it.

Which has all most same the size of GE F-404.

The difference is F-414 has 70-80 kg more dry weight and has more thrust.

So it will be HAL's job to strengthen the structure of mk1 and call it as mk2 with GE-414 engine, better radar and more hardpoints.

Does it need re-design work of entire aircraft.....!
 

Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, I meant an advanced aircraft, meaning 3.5 generation aircraft. HF24 Marut was designed nu Kurt Tank, not exactly indigenous.
HF 24 was totally indigenous except the engine. Kurt Tank was and employee of the Indian Govt.

Are you aware of how many Russian engineers, technicians float around DRDO? I have met some. Would that mean that the equipment designed and prototypes are not Indian?

After a few years it will be the 4th Generation aircraft. So, would that mean the earlier efforts are incompaable?


Before you criticize them, you should recollect the many successful products that DRDO has created, for you yourself have mentioned that INSAS is a fine rifle, not to forget the Agni series of missiles.
Yes, they have been successful in some areas.

And compare the number of projects they have failed, the money wasted (because they did not have the expertise to fulfil the project, but insisted they could do it).

I have always been a votary for Indian products. But the manner in which the DRDO claims they can produce the moon and fail or tomtom with half finished products is exasperating for the user (military) who are left high and dry with the void and their lives on the line becoming more vulnerable than ever.



Sir developing an aircraft is not the same as mutton biryani. It would be hilarious to think that we will be successful with our first fighter jet. But beyond all. this this is a crucial learning curve for us. This will lay the stepping stone for further developments if the government wishes.
You really feel our DRDO products are totally without assistance from outside?

It is not only the Govt that wishes development, it is also the military. Let there be no doubts about that.

We have run out of the right ammunition and weapons all because of sanctions or lacklustre acquisitions from local and foreign sources. And who suffers because of this lack of ammunition and weapons in a war? The soldier. Therefore, who wants that in a war there are no shortages? The Military. And how can we ensure that there is no shortage of either? By having our own products. Therefore, it is military which wants the DRDO to succeed. The experience unfortunately has been high on promises, low on delivery. And in the interim, there is this void which only puts the soldier in harm's way and the military high and dry with an impossible task to fulfil for the Nation.

I would love anything coming out of this project, please understand that this is part of a learning curve.
Learning curve is welcomed.

But it should be a standalone affair without leaving the Forces high and dry with Promises as they ride the Learning Curve.

Einstein was not the acclaimed figure he became when he was just born or when he was learning.

He came the acclaimed figure after completing his learning and then experimenting to give his final analysis on issues.



My comment was meant to say that even a genius cannot create the most sophisticated system in the first attempt. Let me bring another factor into account. BUDGETTING, do you know how much money DRDO has got over the last 10 years. The amount is around Rs. 10,000 crores.
Source: DRDO under Parliament scanner; dna accesses House committee documents rapping organisation for shoddy research | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

By the way do you the operating cost of Sochi Olympics? Its Rs.12,000 crores.
Source: A Familiar Ring �

It is easy to criticize, but difficult to learn and develop. Latter is what is more important and that's what DRDO is concentrating upon.
As I said, Learn as much as you want, but in your own time. But not on the time the Forces have to be equipped and capable to take on the adversary. And if the Forces then fail, it will meet the same criticism as what the DRDO has received from so many sources, including the Govt.

In the Kargil War, where do you think the Bofor Guns came from? Were they located in Kargil ab initio? By inducting Bofors from other sectors, did it not unbalance those sectors? Why was there the requirement to have an emergent import of Bofor ammunition? Did you not have the TOT?

How come inspite of all that what is the status of the DRDO 155 mm artillery gun?
With the international procurement of the 155-mm towed gun for the Indian Army dogged by controversy and failure, India's Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has made the potentially game-changing decision to jump into the fray. The DRDO's most productive laboratory, the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune, could soon become the hub for developing an indigenous 155-mm towed gun, with the DRDO partnering private industry giants such as Bharat Forge and Larsen & Toubro.
155-mm gun contract: DRDO enters the fray | Business Standard News
If we had the Bofors indigenously designed with advance 'tweaks' to the ToT as is being done now and produced them, then the Indian Army would have been better balanced on the ground and not having to relocate the guns from other sectors and leaving those sectors void.

Around 114 Bofors howitzers are being manufactured by Jabalpur-based OFB as part of a INR12.6bn ($200m) contract using the designs obtained under transfer of technology (ToT) provisions in the controversial INR14.7bn ($227m) contract awarded to Bofors in March 1986 for supply of 410 howitzers.
The OFB has electronically upgraded the guns to 45 calibre from the original 39 calibre, giving the new howitzer a 38km range compared to the 30km of the original Bofors 155mm Howitzer field gun, according to the news agency.
http://www.army-technology.com/news...s-of-indigenous-155mm-bofors-howitzer-4167507
This will also be a 'successful' project of the DRDO.
 
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Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

sir there is a difference between comaprision india & germany

when germany started the projects they know they were under sanction and had to develop everything in house

in indias case when they contracted foreign things they were not under sanctions

so timelines and budgets (finances ) would have been structured accrodinlgy

now suddenly when they are put under sanctions

then they budget for (finances) and start tech development - which again is not concurrent

so these factors do affect - timelines & financial budgets in an unforeseen way
India has faced sanctions many a time. Therefore, India has to cater for such eventualities. Hence, the same fate as Germany.

We have to be self reliant. And if there is issues then we should take Projects one at a time or that many that we can deliver with confidence and not walk in as to prove that we are a world pacesetter and jack of all trades.

In the interim, undertake Research with real earnest in areas that we want to develop and when we have adequate knowledge, then go for it.


There is nothing wrong on the part of India to take foreign support to enhance DRDO's effort.

India has attained a considerable degree of domestic capability regarding ballistic missile development, while it continues to rely on foreign support in other areas, such as cruise missiles, submarines, and ballistic missile defence.

India's missile and aerospace programs have also benefited from a number of suppliers who provide components for its missile and rocket systems, often procured illegally from abroad. Below is a brief list of several suppliers of note:

Cirrus Electronics: Operates in the United States, Singapore, and India; knowingly supplied U.S.-origin controlled items to Indian organizations on the U.S. Entity List without the required export license, including semiconductors and capacitors, which can be used in missile guidance and firing systems, and static random access memory computer chips.

Enterysys Corporation: Operates in the United States and India; exported U.S.-origin controlled electronic equipment to BDL without the required licenses when it was on the U.S. Entity List.

NPO Mashinostroyenia: Russian firm that co-develops the BrahMos cruise missile in cooperation with the DRDO; co-founded the BrahMos Aerospace Joint Venture with the DRDO.

Rajaram Engineering Corporation: Accused by the U.S. Department of Commerce of illegally supplying an Indian space center with U.S.-origin equipment and technology related to the research and development of launching systems, including missile delivery systems.

On January 18, 1991 the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) inked an agreement with the Russian space agency Glavkosmos for the transfer of cryogenic technology. Following the collapse of its Soviet empire, Russia was under considerable American influence. In this backdrop, both Glavkosmos and ISRO anticipated the United States would try and stymie the deal.
So Glavkosmos and ISRO drew up Plan B – outsource the manufacture of the cryogenic engines to Kerala Hi-tech Industries Limited (KELTEC). The arrangement was designed to get around the provisions of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) – a Western cabal that aims to deny ballistic missile technology to non-Western countries, especially India.

The space czars of the two countries – Aleksey Vasin, officer-in-charge of cryogenic technology in Glavkosmos, and ISRO Chairman U.R. Rao – reckoned that if Russian cryogenic technology was passed on to ISRO via KELTEC, technically it would not be a violation of the MTCR.
 
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Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

sir on one hand you say the services should have contemporary & futuristic weapons specs

on the other hand of the weapons systems are developed with present infra in minde then the wepons systems may not be contemporary / futuristic ?

a very delicate dilema ? what to do ?

do what the user says ....

the user gave GSQR which lead to 65 tonne tanks ... but user wants a 50 tone tanks

but in a 50 tone tank - indian made - is not ready to accept the same level of specs which are present in Foreign 50 ton tank --

but is ok with degraded 50 tone foreign tank ?

what is the solution ?
If the GSQR leads a 50 tonne tank to be 65 tonne, who is responsible?

There is a Feasibility Report worked and produced by DRDO.

Should the DRDO not tell the Army to take a hike?

If the DRDO says it can still do it, which is what it said, then what does the Army do in the interim?

@Kunal

Transfer the query and this reply to the correct thread.

and inform us please where it has been transferred.
 
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Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

LCA Tejas is our own effort, so I considered it.

Without Kurt Tank, HAL won't be able to design / make HF-24 in 60s.

But today, HAL/ADA can design / make without such other (foreign) guys.
And our Arihant indigenous 155mm gun and Missiles are our own effort, right?
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

@Ray,

On top of it, what are the difference in HAL's HF-24 project and Tejas project?
 
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Lone Ranger

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Dude, you forget this in your post -----> :troll:
Strangely i dont find it amusing spending thousand of corers of taxpayer rupees in this disaster which might never see combat , feel angered and ashamed.
 

Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

How you compare Tejas with these?
Missiles and Arihant are a runaway success.

What if India took assistance from Russia? Who cares? These successes are still our and we will build greater successes with what we have achieved even if with foreign assistance.

And Tejas?

Check this
Nov 19, 2014 16:55 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
DRDO takes "an honest stand" indeed, files to kill the Kaveri engine program entirely.

Nov 18/14: Kaveri. The DRDO is doing something unusual: submitting documents to cancel a major research project, after INR 21.06 billion has been spent by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore. The request to end the GTX-35VS Kaveri program (q.v. Appendices A & B) must now be approved by the Ministry of Finance, and receive clearance from the top-level Cabinet Committee on Security. Which also helps explain why so few projects are canceled, but the biggest change required still involves the DRDO's mentality. Director-General Aero Dr. K. Tamilmani indicates that elections do have consequences:

"These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Whereever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking"¦. If you are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km? DRDO has realized its mistakes of the past and we have no hesitation in taking some bold steps."

It is indeed an honest stand, and DRDO can take it without giving up on India's strategic industrial policy to become more self-sufficient in jet engine technologies. The project delays created by Kaveri remain a total waste, but the research itself can be harvested. DRDO intends to press on with jet engine research, and it's possible to undertake projects that are militarily useful but much less ambitious. INR 3 billion has reportedly been earmarked for such work, and DRDO wants to make progress is 12 identified technical areas. Sources: OneIndia, "OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project".
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...10-but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine-01901/
This is just what the DRDO should do as I have been stating:
If they are are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km?

The project delays created by Kaveri remain a total waste, but the research itself can be harvested. DRDO intends to press on with jet engine research, and it's possible to undertake projects that are militarily useful but much less ambitious. INR 3 billion has reportedly been earmarked for such work, and DRDO wants to make progress is 12 identified technical areas. Sources: OneIndia, "OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project".
 
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Ray

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

@Ray,

On top of it, what are the difference in HAL's HF-24 project and Tejas project?
HF 24 was a runaway success and done in lesser years. But did not achieve it optimum because of lack of engine. It was underpowered but still accepted by the IAF and performed well even in operations.

And Tejas has been languishing inspite of having a foreign engine.

I am all for taking foreign assistance in areas where we do not have the expertise and learn.

There is nothing embarrassing in taking foreign assistance where we do not have the expertise.

Take it and build on that till there comes a time, when we build new horizons on our own with what we have learnt, mastered and then surpass those that we learnt.

The problem with us is our Ego and misplaced nationalism. We want to think we can do it all, when in actuality we cannot and then cover up the shortfalls with nationalist jingoism and hurt pride.

I take pride in what we have achieved, with or without foreign assistance. And yet, I view issue with pragmatism and not with false jingoism and misplaced pride.

And what I cannot digest is lethargy and sab chalta hai attitude that we are afflicted with.

I appreciate the pragmatism of Director-General Aero Dr. K. Tamilmani. He has junked the Kaveri, but he is still hard at the research on Aero Engines. He is not holding anyone up with false promises and dreams.

But surely, with research, one day we will produce an engine that will fit and replace our aircraft engines with a better one produced indigenously.
 
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Lone Ranger

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

HF 24 was a runaway success and done in lesser years. But did not achieve it optimum because of lack of engine. It was underpowered but still accepted by the IAF and performed well even in operations.

And Tejas has been languishing inspite of having a foreign engine.

I am all for taking foreign assistance in areas where we do not have the expertise and learn.

There is nothing embarrassing in taking foreign assistance where we do not have the expertise.

Take it and build on that till there comes a time, when we build new horizons on our own with what we have learnt, mastered and then surpass those that we learnt.

The problem with us is our Ego and misplaced nationalism. We want to think we can do it all, when in actuality we cannot and then cover up the shortfalls with nationalist jingoism and hurt pride.

I take pride in what we have achieved, with or without foreign assistance. And yet, I view issue with pragmatism and not with false jingoism and misplaced pride.

And what I cannot digest is lethargy and sab chalta hai attitude that we are afflicted with.
The reason being HF 24 was designed by team of people who had aeronautical engineering as their passion , only passion of HAL babus is having scrumptious lunches , foreign trips and enjoying holidays.
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Missiles and Arihant are a runaway success.

What if India took assistance from Russia? Who cares? These successes are still our and we will build greater successes with what we have achieved even if with foreign assistance.

And Tejas?

Check this

This is just what the DRDO should do as I have been stating:
Thanks, but no thanks.

Anyway, tell us what is the plan there?

Are they going to consider Tejas also as good as Kaveri (total waste).....!

Now I am coming to main point, (I mean the reason for all these dramas).............What IAF will get then..?
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Strangely i dont find it amusing spending thousand of corers of taxpayer rupees in this disaster which might never see combat , feel angered and ashamed.
Happy now...!

Go in corner and cry as much as you like in the name of Tejas.

If that is not enough, then don't forget to hit hard your head on wall.

Best luck.
 

Blood+

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

How come inspite of all that what is the status of the DRDO 155 mm artillery gun?


If we had the Bofors indigenously designed with advance 'tweaks' to the ToT as is being done now and produced them, then the Indian Army would have been better balanced on the ground and not having to relocate the guns from other sectors and leaving those sectors void.



This will also be a 'successful' project of the DRDO.
Respected sir,I would like to point out one thing here and it would be that ARDE ,so far has got nothing to do with the Dhanush/upgraded FH 77B project,it's all responsibility lies with OFB.So DRDO doesn't even come into the picture in this particular case at least.
And it was not their fault either that Indian Army was left with so few FH 77Bs during Kargil since the Government had ----ed up and despite having paid for and received all the necessary blueprints to manufacture those howitzer pieces,for some reasons only known to them,the OFB and MoD just sat on them until recently.How could the DRDO ever possibly be at fault in which they had no stake or any kind of jurisdiction whatsoever??!!
And then comes the 155mm ammunition part,again,it is not the job of DRDO to manufacture those,it's the job of the OFB to cater for them!!It was decided from the start that the ordnance would be licensed produced by the OFB,now that project didn't work out,it was not DRDO's fault.I'm in no way trying to say that they never ----ed up or kept tom toming about half finished products,but it would be totally wrong to blame that organisation for what happened in Kargil.

After all,one should not forget the professionalism and work-ethics (or rather complete lack of it) of the OFB. Let me give to recent examples :

1.India forced to import 124 T-90 tanks from Russia. Unable to build enough on their own within allotted time frame.
22.12.14 Индия вынуждена просить дополнительные контракты по танкам Т-90 - Военный паритет

2.Huge stockpile of defective anti-tank mines hurts army ops: CAG report
Huge stockpile of defective anti-tank mines hurts army ops: CAG report | The Indian Express | Page 2

Sir,we have to understand that the DRDO was supposed to be analogues to the DARPA and their job was to develop advanced concepts for future or those technologies which are denied like Ballistic Missles,various types of missile seekers,components for turbofan engines,secure communication etc.And howitzer is something which could be procured easily from abroad.It was only in the 2011,after successive attempts to procure artillery guns had failed time and again,the ARDE formally asked the MoD for permission to initiate project conceptualization for an advanced artillery gun.The MoD gave them the nod next year in 2012 and only then,ARDE started drawing work for the same which is now known as the ATAGS which is to be a L52 towed gun and therefore it's different to the Dhanush.
 

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