Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Thanks, but no thanks.

Anyway, tell us what is the plan there?

Are they going to consider Tejas also as good as Kaveri (total waste).....!

Now I am coming to main point, (I mean the reason for all these dramas).............What IAF will get then..?

No, Tejas is not a total waste.

It will carry on with add on development and will surely become functional and operational not too far in the future, given the expertise gained.

And in the interim get whatever is required to fill the void in the numbers to bring it to the No of operational squadrons essential to combat the Threat to India.

When Tejas is functional and operational, then we will not require foreign military aircraft. And we can also export it then to many others.

Here is what is the problem with India

In Feb. 2006, the US experts stated that "Kaveri is truly a world-class engine." They were ready to assist.

"We are ready to join in partnership with the Defence Research and Development Organisation to make Kaveri work," General William J Begert of Pratt and Whitney, told PTI.

And here is the misplaced ego that caused all the effort and money to go waste.

"But DRDO secretary Natrajan told PTI that "But Kaveri is and would remain an Indian project."

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/1306

And now it the Project has been shelved!!!!

Misplaced ego and foolish jingoism!

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Respected sir,I would like to point out one thing here and it would be that ARDE ,so far has got nothing to do with the Dhanush/upgraded FH 77B project,it's all responsibility lies with OFB.So DRDO doesn't even come into the picture in this particular case at least.
And it was not their fault either that Indian Army was left with so few FH 77Bs during Kargil since the Government had ----ed up and despite having paid for and received all the necessary blueprints to manufacture those howitzer pieces,for some reasons only known to them,the OFB and MoD just sat on them until recently.How could the DRDO ever possibly be at fault in which they had no stake or any kind of jurisdiction whatsoever??!!
And then comes the 155mm ammunition part,again,it is not the job of DRDO to manufacture those,it's the job of the OFB to cater for them!!It was decided from the start that the ordnance would be licensed produced by the OFB,now that project didn't work out,it was not DRDO's fault.I'm in no way trying to say that they never ----ed up or kept tom toming about half finished products,but it would be totally wrong to blame that organisation for what happened in Kargil.

After all,one should not forget the professionalism and work-ethics (or rather complete lack of it) of the OFB. Let me give to recent examples :

1.India forced to import 124 T-90 tanks from Russia. Unable to build enough on their own within allotted time frame.
22.12.14 Индия вынуждена просить дополнительные контракты по танкам Т-90 - Военный паритет

2.Huge stockpile of defective anti-tank mines hurts army ops: CAG report
Huge stockpile of defective anti-tank mines hurts army ops: CAG report | The Indian Express | Page 2

Sir,we have to understand that the DRDO was supposed to be analogues to the DARPA and their job was to develop advanced concepts for future or those technologies which are denied like Ballistic Missles,various types of missile seekers,components for turbofan engines,secure communication etc.And howitzer is something which could be procured easily from abroad.It was only in the 2011,after successive attempts to procure artillery guns had failed time and again,the ARDE formally asked the MoD for permission to initiate project conceptualization for an advanced artillery gun.The MoD gave them the nod next year in 2012 and only then,ARDE started drawing work for the same which is now known as the ATAGS which is to be a L52 towed gun and therefore it's different to the Dhanush.

So, you claim that the DRDO's 155 mm artillery gun is totally an Indian design and effort?

Now, if they can improve upon the Bofors and claim it their own, the what stopped the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) to 'develop' the ammunition and call it their own for the Kargil War, given that imports were blocked? Of course the Govt is to blame, but who stop R&D? And why should DRDO not have R&D ongoing, if they can prove that it is essential for national defence?

What I have being stating and what you say of OFB also applies to DRDO - lack of professionalism and work-ethics

DARPA ATAGS and all that are cosmetic. It does not affect the military in the immediate future. Let them do just that and there would be no quibbles. But false hopes and then leaving all in a lurch and in a void to defend the country does create a huge tension for those entrusted with the sovereignty and integrity of the Nation.

 

[Blood+]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

So, you claim that the DRDO's 155 mm artillery gun is totally an Indian design and effort?

Now, if they can improve upon the Bofors and claim it their own, the what stopped the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) to 'develop' the ammunition and call it their own for the Kargil War, given that imports were blocked? Of course the Govt is to blame, but who stop R&D? And why should DRDO not have R&D ongoing, if they can prove that it is essential for national defence?

What I have being stating and what you say of OFB also applies to DRDO - lack of professionalism and work-ethics

DARPA ATAGS and all that are cosmetic. It does not affect the military in the immediate future. Let them do just that and there would be no quibbles. But false hopes and then leaving all in a lurch and in a void to defend the country does create a huge tension for those entrusted with the sovereignty and integrity of the Nation.

Please do not get agitated sir,I wasn't claiming anything of my own,rather I was merely repeating what has been put on net for general consumption.

And again,the picture you posted is of the upgraded FH77B aka Dhanush and to my best knowledge,the ARDE never claimed any such thing that it had been developed by them.In fact it was the OFB which made that claim.
And why didn't the DRDO initiate an artillery and assorted ammunition development project on their own,well,I dont have much of an idea about the methods of DRDO.But it occurs to me that the DRDO as an organisation is overly reactive,in that they usually do not do anything until they are told to (barring a few exception like the Prahaar tactical missile).May be that could have been the reason.And it also seems logical because even when they had shown an intention to initiate an artillery project in 2011,instead of moving on their own initiative,they asked for permission of MoD (may be for the necessary funds) which was approved by the next year.

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Please do not get agitated sir,I wasn't claiming anything of my own,rather I was merely repeating what has been put on net for general consumption.

And again,the picture you posted is of the upgraded FH77B aka Dhanush and to my best knowledge,the ARDE never claimed any such thing that it had been developed by them.In fact it was the OFB which made that claim.
And why didn't the DRDO initiate an artillery and assorted ammunition development project on their own,well,I dont have much of an idea about the methods of DRDO.But it occurs to me that the DRDO as an organisation is overly reactive,in that they usually do not do anything until they are told to (barring a few exception like the Prahaar tactical missile).May be that could have been the reason.And it also seems logical because even when they had shown an intention to initiate an artillery project in 2011,instead of moving on their own initiative,they asked for permission of MoD (may be for the necessary funds) which was approved by the next year.

I am never agitated or angry; at least not on a forum, for the simple reason that it will not affect anyone's opinion or views. So, it is futile to get angry or agitated. In fact, it is better to debate with a counter with views and with links since links adds to the weight.

The interchange help adding to my knowledge and I never tire of learning more.

It is just that since I have been in the military and have seen the DRDO in action, I don't exult at their 'achievements', and at the same time, I don't decry their taking foreign assistance in areas where there is less expertise. And why not take assistance when the deadlines are tight and the national security cannot be left to pandering to ego and misplaced nationalism. I appended the comment of the Defence Secretary who abandoned the US assistance for the Kaveri engine, in which billions have been pumped in, because it is an 'Indian project'. What crap. He forgets Indian money has been pumped in which India could ill afford!

DRDO may not claim that their 155mm gun is not an up-gradation of the Bofors, but it is. That is where the hoax lies to fool all but those who are in the know.

That the DRDO does not do anything without Govt sanction shows their bureaucratic approach. If they want to do R&D can they not put up a Project to do just that so that there is continuous upgradation of expertise? Will the govt tell them, no, you must do what we want and nothing more?

The Govt and media stated that VK Singh set up a secret electronic surveillance group to monitor Pakistan without Govt sanction and then used it to snoop on the Govt. If he did that, it shows initiative to ensure that Pakistan is to be monitored and not merely depend on RAW and IB. So, if he can do it, why can't DRDO show initiative and not wait for the Govt to order it around? Please check the non development use of the funds given for Projects to realise the waste and the pelf and cosmetics accrued.

Stay in one of their Guest House to realise what is really luxury. I have stayed.

I am one who is proud to be an Indian, proud of our inherent ability and expertise, but am downright concerned when people poodlefake ( Make presentable or plausible) and think they are delivering.

That is why I am proud of HF 24 but cannot show the same pride for the unending delays and poodlefaking over Tejas.

 

[Blood+]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

I am never agitated or angry; at least not on a forum, for the simple reason that it will not affect anyone's opinion or views. So, it is futile to get angry or agitated. In fact, it is better to debate with a counter with views and with links since links adds to the weight.

The interchange help adding to my knowledge and I never tire of learning more.

It is just that since I have been in the military and have seen the DRDO in action, I don't exult at their 'achievements', and at the same time, I don't decry their taking foreign assistance in areas where there is less expertise. And why not take assistance when the deadlines are tight and the national security cannot be left to pandering to ego and misplaced nationalism. I appended the comment of the Defence Secretary who abandoned the US assistance for the Kaveri engine, in which billions have been pumped in, because it is an 'Indian project'. What crap. He forgets Indian money has been pumped in which India could ill afford!

DRDO may not claim that their 155mm gun is not an up-gradation of the Bofors, but it is. That is where the hoax lies to fool all but those who are in the know.

That the DRDO does not do anything without Govt sanction shows their bureaucratic approach. If they want to do R&D can they not put up a Project to do just that so that there is continuous upgradation of expertise? Will the govt tell them, no, you must do what we want and nothing more?

The Govt and media stated that VK Singh set up a secret electronic surveillance group to monitor Pakistan without Govt sanction and then used it to snoop on the Govt. If he did that, it shows initiative to ensure that Pakistan is to be monitored and not merely depend on RAW and IB. So, if he can do it, why can't DRDO show initiative and not wait for the Govt to order it around? Please check the non development use of the funds given for Projects to realise the waste and the pelf and cosmetics accrued.

Stay in one of their Guest House to realise what is really luxury. I have stayed.

I am one who is proud to be an Indian, proud of our inherent ability and expertise, but am downright concerned when people poodlefake ( Make presentable or plausible) and think they are delivering.

That is why I am proud of HF 24 but cannot show the same pride for the unending delays and poodlefaking over Tejas.

So true.And it really doesn't matter if ARDE takes anything from the FH 77B for their ATAGS project,after all it was the exact same reason,the then GoI had payed for those blueprints - to build the capability to produce and then improve upon the design.Too bad it took them more than three decades to actually put them to good use.
And as for LCA,the first mistake the GoI committed was to waste time and money on setting up the ADA.They should have given the design work to HAL from the beginning who had all necessary expertise.

 

[karn]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

First of all, I am a laymen, there is nothing to hide in it.

Second, I asked it because few members said it on DFI that yet HAL have to design and develop Tejas mk2 aircraft.

I raised this issue at that time by asking now what HAL have to design / develop for Tejas.

They finished nearly everything.

Only they have to do is, try to accommodate GE F-414 engine in it.

Which has all most same the size of GE F-404.

The difference is F-414 has 70-80 kg more dry weight and has more thrust.

So it will be HAL's job to strengthen the structure of mk1 and call it as mk2 with GE-414 engine, better radar and more hardpoints.

Does it need re-design work of entire aircraft.....!

There is a huge difference in effort between design and prototyping .

But these prototypes are supposed to be the production version as they are only proving and debugging the design and not testing something altogether new .
I think full work will only start after FOC .

 

[mans.randhawa]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Happy now...!

Go in corner and cry as much as you like in the name of Tejas.

If that is not enough, then don't forget to hit hard your head on wall.

Best luck.

Rant what you all may your suder dupa tejas assembled by hal champu babus will never see combat in 2 decades.

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

So true.And it really doesn't matter if ARDE takes anything from the FH 77B for their ATAGS project,after all it was the exact same reason,the then GoI had payed for those blueprints - to build the capability to produce and then improve upon the design.Too bad it took them more than three decades to actually put them to good use.
And as for LCA,the first mistake the GoI committed was to waste time and money on setting up the ADA.They should have given the design work to HAL from the beginning who had all necessary expertise.

No the ADA works as a design bureau which is the correct approach for developing aircrafts.
HAL should also develop aircrafts in parallel. Maybe HAL can create another light fighter design to compete with Tejas. Tejas production can be moved to Tata.

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

@Ray, how can any government department function without "Bureaucracy"? The same true for Army also. The yes-man culture is very strong in India.

As I said, the improvement will come when there is competition. Let three design bureau design fighter planes in parallel?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

If ADA/HAL was able to replace costly imported Titanium panels with locally made composites the implication is huge . I just wanted a source on that . Even if it is an HAL one .

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

This is IAF source, which details the composite and ceramic parts in HAL built SU-30 MKI all developed from NAL supplied autoclaves developed for tejas program,

Also the DRAE developed avionics, mission computers, radar computers, tarang suite have their origin in Tejas program, a lot of them are being exported Russia for their SU-30 Sm as well.

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!

Planned for incorporation into the Su-30MKI fuselage on a progressive basis from 2006 through to 2017 on 114 of the 140 HAL-built Su-30MKI Mk3s are all-composite structures like wing spars and wing boxes, air intakes, fairing skins, fairing blocks, co-cured co-bonded fin and centre-fuselage components, elevators, rudder and its all-composite torque shaft, ailerons, belly fairings, landing gear doors, ceramic thermal barrier linings, and ceramic brake-pads. Interestingly, several such structures are currently being incorporated into the IAF's MiG-29B airframes as well.

 

[Zebra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Rant what you all may your suder dupa tejas assembled by hal champu babus will never see combat in 2 decades.

Sir, welcome to wonderland.

You are not first here on DFI who just popped up on net and started posting against products like Tejas and Arjun.

BTW, check it again, how much post counts goes in your share, It tells the story.

Let me tell you every other aircraft company does the same.

They help other industries to make parts as per their requirements and use those in their products.

If HAL does the same then nothing new in it.

And it is you guys who rant here. Not Tejas supporters.

But bad luck for you and all of others like you.

Merry Christmas now.

 

[karn]

IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org
So now including Navy orders the production run of the Tejas Mk 1 stands at 68 .
Now I fear with the production rate of 8 a year the production run of the tejas 1 will continue even after the Tejas 2 has finished trials .
Unless a second line is opened for the tejas 2 ..

 

[mans.randhawa]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, welcome to wonderland.

You are not first here on DFI who just popped up on net and started posting against products like Tejas and Arjun.

BTW, check it again, how much post counts goes in your share, It tells the story.

Let me tell you every other aircraft company does the same.

They help other industries to make parts as per their requirements and use those in their products.

If HAL does the same then nothing new in it.

And it is you guys who rant here. Not Tejas supporters.

But bad luck for you and all of others like you.

Merry Christmas now.

tejas wont see ant combat will just turn out high cost trainer dig that

 

[sgarg]

IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org
So now including Navy orders the production run of the Tejas Mk 1 stands at 68 .
Now I fear with the production rate of 8 a year the production run of the tejas 1 will continue even after the Tejas 2 has finished trials .
Unless a second line is opened for the tejas 2 ..

HAL will increase production rate to 12 and then 16. GOI has already cleared increase to 12 per year.

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF likely to increase order for Tejas MK-1 Trainer | idrw.org
So now including Navy orders the production run of the Tejas Mk 1 stands at 68 .
Now I fear with the production rate of 8 a year the production run of the tejas 1 will continue even after the Tejas 2 has finished trials .
Unless a second line is opened for the tejas 2 ..

"the production run" of tejas mk1 is directly dependent on the men and money invested in the production line.

SO far the disheartening news from saint Antony days is ,"when HAL asked MOD for separate budget allocation for tejas mk1 production line, they were told raise 750 or so crore from your internal accruals, raise the remaining 750 crores from IAF and navy".

You should have known by now that all the tejas mk1s ordered by navy are of trainer purpose onyl as they want mk2 to cater to increased weight that comes from strengthening the airframe for arrested hook carrier landings.

So UPA was busy dishing out bank guarantees to Agusta and happy to play along with TATRA but when it comes to saving the lives of pilots flying unreliable Mig-21s, they have no stomach to set aside a few thousand crores.

have you ever read criticism on this count from our TOI Pandit guy? or retired Airmarshal types who are calling tejas just a trainer? never. All they will say is HAL wont produce more than 4 tejas an year as if it is some biological fact like a child bearing ability of a woman!!!

No one will ever raise his little finger about why the GOI is not allocating more money and men for tejas production. Till now all tejas LSps were produced from pre historic jag production lines!! this alone took away 6 percent of their aerodynamic performance as manufacturing process employed in those lines were not modern according to ADA chief Subramanium. You can see large gaps between wing sections unfit for a 4.5th gen fighter in photos only because of such old production line.

Invest more money and we will see 12 to 16 tejas an year with no problems .

 

[karn]

"the production run" of tejas mk1 is directly dependent on the men and money invested in the production line.

SO far the disheartening news from saint Antony days is ,"when HAL asked MOD for separate budget allocation for tejas mk1 production line, they were told raise 750 or so crore from your internal accruals, raise the remaining 750 crores from IAF and navy".

You should have known by now that all the tejas mk1s ordered by navy are of trainer purpose onyl as they want mk2 to cater to increased weight that comes from strengthening the airframe for arrested hook carrier landings.

So UPA was busy dishing out bank guarantees to Agusta and happy to play along with TATRA but when it comes to saving the lives of pilots flying unreliable Mig-21s, they have no stomach to set aside a few thousand crores.

have you ever read criticism on this count from our TOI Pandit guy? or retired Airmarshal types who are calling tejas just a trainer? never. All they will say is HAL wont produce more than 4 tejas an year as if it is some biological fact like a child bearing ability of a woman!!!

No one will ever raise his little finger about why the GOI is not allocating more money and men for tejas production. Till now all tejas LSps were produced from pre historic jag production lines!! this alone took away 6 percent of their aerodynamic performance as manufacturing process employed in those lines were not modern according to ADA chief Subramanium. You can see large gaps between wing sections unfit for a 4.5th gen fighter in photos only because of such old production line.

Invest more money and we will see 12 to 16 tejas an year with no problems .

To clarify ... The SP1 that flew recently . Was that also built on the old Jag line ?

 

[ersakthivel]

To clarify ... The SP1 that flew recently . Was that also built on the old Jag line ?

Both the airframes of SP-1 and SP-2 were built in the older production line as far as i know from older reports. Their wings were checked again for compliance. According to some open source news , i came across somewhere, Both of them will be given to airforce tactical establishment for developing tactics and from SP-2 onwards fighting squadron formation will start

 

[cobra commando]

Indian Firm Develops Technology For IAF

 

[shalabh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

tejas wont see ant combat will just turn out high cost trainer dig that

kyun punjabiyon ka naam kharab kar raha hai randhawa kisi ne sikhaya nahi ki ya tere bas ka hi nahi..

 

[mans.randhawa]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

kyun punjabiyon ka naam kharab kar raha hai randhawa kisi ne sikhaya nahi ki ya tere bas ka hi nahi..

How dose speaking bitter truth ruining anything ?