Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, In Indian context its a multi-role fighter not as Cold War`s Subsonic Bomber interceptor as conceived by Soviets, In that sense Tejas are more than a replacement for MIG-21s ..

I can elaborate further if you wish ..

=============

Sir, You are repeating the same questions ..

That is not true.

The MIG-21 was primarily designed by the Soviet Union to be an "interceptor" aircraft. Which means that as soon as the Air Defense forces of USSR detect approaching enemy fighter or bomber formations, they'd scramble from their bases, gain altitude quickly and attack these targets and destroy them before they could pose a threat to the Soviet homeland.

So the aircraft can climb very fast and has very limited onboard equipment. As per Soviet doctrine, these aircrafts would be guided to their targets by ground controllers using ground based radars. But considering the spate of Soviet pilots defecting to the west in their fighters, the Soviet designers "deliberately" designed the MIG-21 with a very small wing span and very less fuel capacity to limit their range. The controls are also designed for short missions. This was to disuade pilots from traversing the vastness of the soviet airspace.

However this has made this aircraft very very difficult to operate. Its inherent instabilty and other design aspects makes it the aircraft with the "highest landing speed" in IAF. In other words, you have to travel at a much higher speed while landing this aircraft than you would, in others. Also the log delas in India's LCA Tejas, designed to replace these MIG-21's has forced the IAF to keep these aircrafts, dubbed as "flying coffins" in service for an additional 2 years. Perhaps you can also throw in additional factors like lack of spares and poor maintenance into the basket.

1. If it takes 32 years to have an aircraft from the drawing board to be operational, are you expecting the IAF to stand still at the operational requirements that was valid 32 years ago?
Would it be OK for you to drive a fuel guzzling Ambassador today and not take advantage of the modern cars that are there? Stand still in a timewrap out of sheer nationalism (even though the Ambassador is not an Indian origin vehicle)?

So, as the years of agony of non arrival progresses, would it not be appropriate to ask for changes that would be comparative to the times? And note, these are weapons and not mere feel good toys.

2. Yes, all the tests are sequential. But what of it? Are you suggesting that it should not be so?

3. No one can push substandard stuff to people on whose life such substandard stuff depends. Therefore, your contention that the IAF they did everything to defame it and they are living in denial they need to be brought to light is misplaced and dangerous. Why don't you fly a substandard machine and feel good when it comes crashing down and ending your illustrious life?

Dying in combat for the Nation is one thing Veer Bhogya Vasundhara, but dying for no good reason, just because some people feel that one join the military to die, is a silly way to die, apart from a silly thought.

4. At what would be the time when one will see that Tejas does fit our requirement and with time it will meet all of them.... is the million dollar question. if in the interim, there is a conflict, would it be fine with you that pilots die? If so, then why the hullabaloo over the figures that died for Kargil because the Nation failed them in equipping them?

5. Do you think that the IAF should twiddle their thumbs in glee till the time The concept phase of MKII will meet all the Demands of IAF( conditional...they dont change them once again....)?

Can you guarantee that they will not have to put their lives on the line till then?

if so, fine.

What you do not understand, is that when there will be a war or some reason why they have to put their lives on the line is not an environment that they control. It is the Nation and the govt that controls that environment and it is the Nation and the Govt's responsibility to ensure that they have the wherewithal at the right place and the right place if they are to deliver.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Defence does not come cheap.

I never said it comes cheap. You said something different when i asked does cost matter or not?

If you want cheap stuff, then you will get cheap defence.

I can say to this that at least we will have some defense.... Some defense is better than no defense

Does DRDO not have adequate funds? Are you suggesting that?

I am saying that they had funds but no will due to various factors

May I ask you a counter question.

You want to build a house. Do you not check if you have the money or organise for that much of money? Or do you start ordering the house to be built on mere speculative assumption that money will come your way?

i wish this could have been as easy as making a house.
This is not similar. on the contrary i can say ... first we made house in caves. then wood hut....then mud.. then stone.. then bricks and so on...

you missed all these steps....
now you plz tell am i saying anytin incorrect?

Any project that is contemplated has to have a cost analysis and presented to the Govt with vetting by all concerned. Then, and then alone, is the project sanctioned.

Sanctions affected us only in buying assemblies to retrofit.

But then do we lack scientists, technicians, brains to not build things ourselves or have we no confidence in ourselves.

yes we do lack

Germany was under sanctions and the most crippling clauses of the Treaty of Versailles, and yet they produced war machines that were innovative and very lethal. Missiles and its technology are what they unleashed on the world and on which today the space explorations are based on.

that was after world war 1... if i am correct they had the infrastructure ready so even all the sanctions didnt stop them. we started from scratch so did they but they had prior experience infrastructure ready with them... in simple they had war experience that too world war

if they can do, why can't we.

Why must be always take recourse to excuses for our lethargic, laid back approach?

If we are to be a world beater, then we cannot be sleeping and hoping for the favourable wind to blow and do the job for us.

I agree chalta hai attitude has to change and has not changed yet....

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, who are responsible for 'Tejas is coming, Tejas is coming' cry?

If I have to answer it, then first IAF and second ex-minister of defence is responsible.

These two people never tried to get Tejas earlier in service.

If there are any shortfalls in the product then they could have improved it in later series productions and can upgrade the old once as well.

But unfortunately it never happened.

Let me ask, ADA/ HAL ordered GE F 414 engines for Mk2s, when they are coming then...?

IAF, MoD, ADA, HAL ever tried to get them earlier as much as they can...? If there are really desperate cry of 'Tejas is coming, Tejas is coming'...!

I don't think any of them even tried, forget about they tried really hard.

'Ram bharose Hindu hotel' is the most suitable description for this situation right now, specially for IAF.

Do you really believe that those whose lives are on the line would say 'Tejas is coming, Tejas is coming and so hold your horses'?

When your house is burning, do you wait for the Fire Brigade to come to save you and your house?

Think that over.

For 10 years modernisation of the military has been put on hold thanks to the personal whims of the Defence Minister.

Fault of the military?

Think that over.

Are the prices of equipment today same as that 10 years earlier?

Think that over.

So, who is at fault?

Yes, it is Ram Bharose, Hindu Hotel even. though Anthony is a Christian and Manmohan a Sikh, herded around by a RC, Sonia.

Anand Sharma wails that the BJP is only 'repackaging' the UPA's project. That maybe true. At least they are delivering, while the UPA visualised a Bharat Nirman and dreamt and did sweet fanny adams, apart from lining their pockets. The lining of pockets were the only thing that was real.

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

I never said it comes cheap. You said something different when i asked does cost matter or not? I can say to this that at least we will have some defense.... Some defense is better than no defense I am saying that they had funds but no will due to various factors i wish this could have been as easy as making a house.This is not similar. on the contrary i can say ... first we made house in caves. then wood hut....then mud.. then stone.. then bricks and so on...

Some defence is no defence.

it is like pointing a toothpick against someone with a knife.

Yes, first we made house in caves. then wood hut....then mud.. then stone.. then bricks and so on.... But then the others also were in the same boat and not living in brick and mortar mansions.

That is the difference.

you missed all these steps....
now you plz tell am i saying anytin incorrect? yes we do lack that was after world war 1... if i am correct they had the infrastructure ready so even all the sanctions didnt stop them. we started from scratch so did they but they had prior experience infrastructure ready with them... in simple they had war experience that too world war

I agree chalta hai attitude has to change and has not changed yet....

Maybe you should visit the Inequalities imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles.

Ideal it would be if you read EH Carr's 'International Relations between the Two World Wars 1919 - 1939' to realise that Germany had no hope in hell to rise again. Their infrastructure was under scrutiny and restrictions imposed.

But the Germans were ingenuous. If you visit the Army Institute of Technology opposite of the Peacock Bay of NDA, you will find a machine gun, where on inspection you will find it a single shot. Turn the breech block over, it became a machine gun!

They were emasculated physically, but their ingenuity and pride could not be emasculated.

Indian must inject genuine pride in their scientific and technological industry and not scamper around to find excuses to cover their lethargy.

How come Indians abroad are so innovative and result oriented?

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, In Indian context its a multi-role fighter not as Cold War`s Subsonic Bomber interceptor as conceived by Soviets, In that sense Tejas are more than a replacement for MIG-21s ..

I can elaborate further if you wish ..

=============

Sir, You are repeating the same questions ..

I agree that, to quote you - In Indian context its a multi-role fighter not as Cold War`s Subsonic Bomber interceptor as conceived by Soviets. But that is parading a donkey and calling it a thoroughbred Arab racing steed!

Please elaborate.

Would it not be a timewrap if we, at this late juncture were only thinking that Tejas should only a replacement for the MIG 21 and not be a pacesetter given the contemporary changed technological, strategic and tactical environment?

The fact that it is to replace the MIGs is merely an administrative and an operational happenstance.

Is MIG 21 contemporary or is it outdated by a long chalk?

 

[Zebra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Do you really believe that those whose lives are on the line would say 'Tejas is coming, Tejas is coming and so hold your horses'?

When your house is burning, do you wait for the Fire Brigade to come to save you and your house?

Think that over.

Sir, IAF is actually doing this. In their love for MMRCA.

Correct me if I am wrong.
-------------------------------------------

For 10 years modernisation of the military has been put on hold thanks to the personal whims of the Defence Minister.

Fault of the military?

Think that over.

Yes, IAF is. They could have ordered Tejas earlier with as it is configuration.

As I said, they could have improved it later also and it can help to maintain their aircrafts numbers, at least.

Are the prices of equipment today same as that 10 years earlier?

Think that over.

So, who is at fault?

I don't think there are much difference in the price of Tejas in last ten years.

Then we are talking about Tejas here.

-------------------------------------

Yes, it is Ram Bharose, Hindu Hotel even. though Anthony is a Christian and Manmohan a Sikh, herded around by a RC, Sonia.

Anand Sharma wails that the BJP is only 'repackaging' the UPA's project. That maybe true. At least they are delivering, while the UPA visualised a Bharat Nirman and dreamt and did sweet fanny adams, apart from lining their pockets. The lining of pockets were the only thing that was real.

Indian army failed to justify Arjun and IAF did the same thing with Tejas.

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, IAF is actually doing this. In their love for MMRCA.

Correct me if I am wrong.

-------------------------------------------
Not really.

MMRCA is merely filling in for the void' given the yawning gap between being operationally ready and waiting for the long delay in having Tejas to be operationally acceptable.

I am sure you are aware that The IAF has 34 fighter squadrons against the sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons and the number is likely to reduce further to 31.

I am also sure that you know that the environment is not very peaceful. Anything can happen. Of course we will still defend with 31 squadrons, ancient tanks, huge shortage of artillery, lack of ammunition. But we shall pay with LIVES! If that is OK with the nation that they will feed the military to the wolves, then there is no debate.

Yes, IAF is. They could have ordered Tejas earlier with as it is configuration

As I said, they could have improved it later also and it can help to maintain their aircrafts numbers, at least.

.

Yes that is possible, as possible as buying fancy shoes at great cost but with no laces! Does the work, right? It is not a problem that it slips off now and then, but you could still retreive it and pit it on. Folks would still be impressed that you have a dashed good fancy brand on!

And when the soles are worn out, the laces would arrive and then it will be a complete shoe!

I don't think there are much difference in the price of Tejas in last ten years.

Then we are talking about Tejas here.

I would not know. You are the expert on finance, price escalation and inflation.

This much I know is that the price of foodstuff has skyrocketed these 10 Years,

But then that is agriculture, right?

Chalk and cheese when we talk of defence products, right?

-------------------------------------

Indian army failed to justify Arjun and IAF did the same thing with Tejas.

I am sure you know what happens when one talks out of turn in the military once the Govt decides.

Gen Sunderjee is dead, but he could have told you a lot.

And why are all quiet about the real reasons why MIGs crash?

What I put in the post was what the IAF really feels is the reason. But have you heard it officially?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir, In that era it was but its outdated by a large margin today, It was and still the time to replace it with its replacement in mass ' The tejas ' , No one stopping IAF but IAF itself ..

I don`t think its late or very was, But surely in part of IAF ..

I agree that, to quote you - In Indian context its a multi-role fighter not as Cold War`s Subsonic Bomber interceptor as conceived by Soviets. But that is parading a donkey and calling it a thoroughbred Arab racing steed!

Please elaborate.

Would it not be a timewrap if we, at this late juncture were only thinking that Tejas should only a replacement for the MIG 21 and not be a pacesetter given the contemporary changed technological, strategic and tactical environment?

===============

Sir, A design goes through evolution as i already mentioned in very early post, It is never a final product, It cannot be compare with Shoes and laces ..

Yes that is possible, as possible as buying fancy shoes at great cost but with no laces! Does the work, right? It is not a problem that it slips off now and then, but you could still retreive it and pit it on. Folks would still be impressed that you have a dashed good fancy brand on!

And when the soles are worn out, the laces would arrive and then it will be a complete shoe!?

 

[power_monger]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

You better not use the word 'lie' so loosely with me.

I use links and not talk through my hat, old chap.

Links are not 'lies'. They are comments based on reports and research and then the articles are written.

Not the meandering of a wandering mind as yours.

You have not worked with development and so you can claim GSQRs to be 'dreaming of'

GSQRs are the 'dreams' (if you will) on which development starts.

In India, development does not start on its own.

I have seen how GSQR develops and even if the Military wants the moon, the DRDO should tell them where to get off. The DRDO doesn't and instead gives more fanciers ideas and telling the military that there is no problem to do what the Military want and more.

So, don't lecture me or hide behind the hackneyed and overworked cliché 'arms lobby'.

I am introspection that if HF 24. Arihant, etc can take off on a tight timeframe, why cannot HAL, which has a longer history of designing military aircraft and have done it before than the naval shipyards?

This is the Link which provides complete timelines of HAL tejas.

Timeline of HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1985
IAF submits Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985. This was initiated by the then Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif.

1987: Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.

1990:
Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.

1993
Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.

So where did the 32 years creep in?Even in 1990 phase 1 of development was to create a proof of concept only. No where in world is proof of concept is considered in actual development timelines.Its only in 1993 when Full Scale Engineering Development(FSED) with full funding started. I will not comment on other parts of post which is directed towards DRDO.

 

[Zebra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

-------------------------------------------
Not really.

MMRCA is merely filling in for the void' given the yawning gap between being operationally ready and waiting for the long delay in having Tejas to be operationally acceptable.

I am sure you are aware that The IAF has 34 fighter squadrons against the sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons and the number is likely to reduce further to 31.

Very hard to believe, they are spending $30 billion for 126 aircrafts, that too just filling the gap.

And if it is true then I was right, when I said 'Ram bharose Hindu hotel' for IAF.

I am also sure that you know that the environment is not very peaceful. Anything can happen. Of course we will still defend with 31 squadrons, ancient tanks, huge shortage of artillery, lack of ammunition. But we shall pay with LIVES! If that is OK with the nation that they will feed the military to the wolves, then there is no debate.

Get more aircrafts then. Get those aircrafts which can do the job and still maintain our budget.

But then their way of thinking got stuck in ideology and doesn't allow them to take decision that which is good for country.

Are they happy to kick out such creepy ideology from their decision making process...!

If yes, then god is great, at least for India.
--------------------------------------------------

Yes that is possible, as possible as buying fancy shoes at great cost but with no laces! Does the work, right? It is not a problem that it slips off now and then, but you could still retreive it and pit it on. Folks would still be impressed that you have a dashed good fancy brand on!

And when the soles are worn out, the laces would arrive and then it will be a complete shoe!

Sir, I can give you at least three cases, when IAF preferred to have fancy shoes without laces.

But here our case is different, Tejas can fire all (which it supposed to fire) missiles, other than BVR.

(really, it can't fire BVR, I doubt it though)

So our fancy shoe actually has its laces.

But then IAF wants fancy laces. That is the problem. Nothing more.
-----------------------------------------------

I would not know. You are the expert on finance, price escalation and inflation.

This much I know is that the price of foodstuff has skyrocketed these 10 Years,

But then that is agriculture, right?

Chalk and cheese when we talk of defence products, right?

-------------------------------------
I am sure you know what happens when one talks out of turn in the military once the Govt decides.

Gen Sunderjee is dead, but he could have told you a lot.

And why are all quiet about the real reasons why MIGs crash?

What I put in the post was what the IAF really feels is the reason. But have you heard it officially?

Replace all vintage aircrafts with Tejas.

Let IAF talk with the PM straight, he might help to get Tejas early and that too in enough good numbers.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Some defence is no defence.

it is like pointing a toothpick against someone with a knife.

Yes, first we made house in caves. then wood hut....then mud.. then stone.. then bricks and so on.... But then the others also were in the same boat and not living in brick and mortar mansions.

That is the difference.

some defense is not no defense..... any resistance is always welcome....

sadly but yes we started this race late ... world started it in the mid or end of the eighteenth century and we started it 100 years too late....
when they started nothing was old or already discovered now they are decades ahead of us and some ppl want us to jump this time line and stand with them... which is practically not true.....

Maybe you should visit the Inequalities imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles.

Ideal it would be if you read EH Carr's 'International Relations between the Two World Wars 1919 - 1939' to realise that Germany had no hope in hell to rise again. Their infrastructure was under scrutiny and restrictions imposed.

But the Germans were ingenuous. If you visit the Army Institute of Technology opposite of the Peacock Bay of NDA, you will find a machine gun, where on inspection you will find it a single shot. Turn the breech block over, it became a machine gun!

They were emasculated physically, but their ingenuity and pride could not be emasculated.

Indian must inject genuine pride in their scientific and technological industry and not scamper around to find excuses to cover their lethargy.

How come Indians abroad are so innovative and result oriented?

I don't know much abt the German history to debate any further but we as Indians need to improve for sure.....

 

[SPIEZ]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir! With all due respect, Tejas is a wonderful project from India. Please remember that it is one of the first advanced fighter jet projects in India. How many countries have gone on to do this? Or a simpler question how many countries have gone on to design an advanced fighter in the first go, espeacially a technologically challenged country like India?

The answer in short not many.

In countries like US, and almost many organisations around the world, there is a lot of emphasis provided to research. Do you know how many students in the US get funding for their research programs in the US? Please remember even Einstein, the smartest guy in the world can't develop an aircraft in the first go. Provided our countries not so developed education system, we have come a long way in designing an advanced fighter aircraft with minimal funding.

Please remember that this is stepping stone for further development.

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

@Ray, the need of the hour is to make do with Su-30 and LCA, both multi-role fighters.
The money saved from MMRCA must be ploughed into new fighter design like AMCA, and building domestic aviation industry. The most critical need remains fighter engine, where every expense and trouble is justified. Next area is air delivered weapons, aircraft sensors etc. where significant investment is needed to develop domestic industry.

The domestic aviation industry needs massive investment and government support to become a viable industry, so that at least 70% of equipment and components are locally sourced.

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

some defense is not no defense..... any resistance is always welcome....

sadly but yes we started this race late ... world started it in the mid or end of the eighteenth century and we started it 100 years too late....
when they started nothing was old or already discovered now they are decades ahead of us and some ppl want us to jump this time line and stand with them... which is practically not true.....



I don't know much abt the German history to debate any further but we as Indians need to improve for sure.....

Some defence is actually no defence.

Can something that can be breached, and that too easily, be effective defence?

When one is standing vigil, he is to be sure that he has a fair chance of defending the nation and not give a walkover and be killed.

Well, that is my view, and if I may say, of the majority of those who stand vigil.

Sir! With all due respect, Tejas is a wonderful project from India. Please remember that it is one of the first advanced fighter jet projects in India. How many countries have gone on to do this? Or a simpler question how many countries have gone on to design an advanced fighter in the first go, espeacially a technologically challenged country like India?

The answer in short not many.

In countries like US, and almost many organisations around the world, there is a lot of emphasis provided to research. Do you know how many students in the US get funding for their research programs in the US? Please remember even Einstein, the smartest guy in the world can't develop an aircraft in the first go. Provided our countries not so developed education system, we have come a long way in designing an advanced fighter aircraft with minimal funding.

Please remember that this is stepping stone for further development.

The first fighter jet project was HF 24.

The airframe was way ahead of the times. It is only that the compatible engine could not be sourced is why it did not really come into operations in a big way.

DRDO does no research and cannot even do an effective reverse engineering.

Been there, seen that.

At the same time, I will say that our scientists and technicians are world class. They are mired in the bureaucratic muddle and cannot really contribute their true worth.

This is the Link which provides complete timelines of HAL tejas.

Timeline of HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1985
IAF submits Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985. This was initiated by the then Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif.

1987: Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.

1990:
Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.

1993
Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.

So where did the 32 years creep in?Even in 1990 phase 1 of development was to create a proof of concept only. No where in world is proof of concept is considered in actual development timelines.Its only in 1993 when Full Scale Engineering Development(FSED) with full funding started. I will not comment on other parts of post which is directed towards DRDO.

1969
Indian government accepted the recommendation by its Aeronautics Committee that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should design and develop an advanced technology fighter aircraft around a proven engine

1975
HAL completed design studies in 1975, but the project fell through due to inability to procure the selected "proven engine" from a foreign manufacturer and unfulfilled IAF requirements.

1983
DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft

1984
Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in 1984 as the nodal agency for managing and developing the LCA.

Are you aware as to why the ADA was set up?

If the ADA, Govt are muddle headed not knowing what to do, do you expect the IAF to initiate the Air Staff Requirements (ASR).

Can an ADR be made without knowing what is the DRDO capable of?

Further, let me give you a domestic example to illustrate the lacklustre and disjointed approach.

Suipposing you are cooking a mutton curry, would you put the oil on the stove and then go to the market to buy the mutton?

Now, note this. Instead of crawling and then walking, India was promised that we can jump from the womb and walk.

One of the most ambitious requirements for the LCA was the specification that it would have "relaxed static stability" (RSS). Although Dassault had offered an analogue FCS system in 1988, the ADA recognised that digital flight control technology would soon supplant it. RSS technology was introduced in 1974 on the General Dynamics F-16 prototype, which became the first production aircraft to be slightly aerodynamically unstable by design, to improve manoeuvrability. Most aircraft are designed with positive static stability, which induces aircraft to return to straight and level flight attitude if the pilot releases the controls; this reduces manoeuvrability as the inherent stability has to be overcome. Aircraft with negative stability are designed to deviate from controlled flight and thus be more manoeuvrable.

Now note the disjointed approach for the engine, and remember one of the most modern airframe of the HF 24 did not come upto expectation because of the lack of a compatible engine! So, this should have been a top priority, But

it was decided to equip prototype aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine.

The sanction got the engine procurement skewed and DRDO banked on the Kaveri engine. We are all aware about the Kaveri engine, which in mid-2004, the Kaveri failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, ending the last hopes of it powering the first production Tejas aircraft.

Then when the sanction was lifted F404-GE-IN20 engine was contracted for.

In 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000–23,000 lbf) range to allow the aircraft to perform combat manoeuvres with optimal weapons load. The contenders were the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414

Note the chaos thereafter,

IAF sources said that the airframe will have to be redesigned to accommodate the heavier engine, which is to take up to three-four years.

I could go on, but it is not worth it.


The silver lining is that we have through all this have gained immense experience and technical expertise.

Better late than never.

It is time that one should get all the loose ends tied and then embark on Projects and not move in fits and starts.

 

[Zebra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir! With all due respect, Tejas is a wonderful project from India. Please remember that it is one of the first advanced fighter jet projects in India. How many countries have gone on to do this? Or a simpler question how many countries have gone on to design an advanced fighter in the first go, espeacially a technologically challenged country like India?

The answer in short not many.

In countries like US, and almost many organisations around the world, there is a lot of emphasis provided to research. Do you know how many students in the US get funding for their research programs in the US? Please remember even Einstein, the smartest guy in the world can't develop an aircraft in the first go. Provided our countries not so developed education system, we have come a long way in designing an advanced fighter aircraft with minimal funding.

Please remember that this is stepping stone for further development.

Sir, are you happy, if they make a wonderful product out of it.

 

[power_monger]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Sir! With all due respect, Tejas is a wonderful project from India. Please remember that it is one of the first advanced fighter jet projects in India. How many countries have gone on to do this? Or a simpler question how many countries have gone on to design an advanced fighter in the first go, espeacially a technologically challenged country like India?

The answer in short not many.

In countries like US, and almost many organisations around the world, there is a lot of emphasis provided to research. Do you know how many students in the US get funding for their research programs in the US? Please remember even Einstein, the smartest guy in the world can't develop an aircraft in the first go. Provided our countries not so developed education system, we have come a long way in designing an advanced fighter aircraft with minimal funding.

Please remember that this is stepping stone for further development.

did Eninstein attempt to build aircraft?Or were you referring to other person?

 

[brahmastra11]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

This contrary holds good for what we did with Su 30 MKI .. Buying it without battle ready for 10 years..

Teajs was more than a replacement for Mig 21 which IAF hated .. Bcoz they wanted to buy fancy boots without laces just like what they did with Su 30 MKI..

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Yes that is possible, as possible as buying fancy shoes at great cost but with no laces! Does the work, right? It is not a problem that it slips off now and then, but you could still retreive it and pit it on. Folks would still be impressed that you have a dashed good fancy brand on!

And when the soles are worn out, the laces would arrive and then it will be a complete shoe!

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

This contrary holds good for what we did with Su 30 MKI .. Buying it without battle ready for 10 years..

Teajs was more than a replacement for Mig 21 which IAF hated .. Bcoz they wanted to buy fancy boots without laces just like what they did with Su 30 MKI..

Well, who has commented on that? Me?

So, what is your beef?

Hurt ego of nationalism?

Russian equipment is govt to govt and no arms dealer.

Hold the Govt of that time responsible for the promises made but not delivered.

Even the submarine deal of India selecting HDW over Kokum was mired with controversies and then the inquiry was closed. How and why?
HDW submarine deal case: CBI asked to file closure report
http://www.thehindu.com/2003/01/15/stories/2003011504491300.htm

It is time for people to realise how development is done, trials are conducted and how procurement is done and what political, economic considerations go into the govt decision and how such decisions are made.

Clichés and bruised and hurt nationalism is not the answer or way forward.

Holding people and organisations accountable is the answer for lapses and omissions and commissions.

 

[brahmastra11]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

My point not answered..

When they can buy Su 30 MKI without battle ready, what stopped them to induct Tejas and let ADA & HAL continue development.. (Same thing happened with all successful jets be it F16, Rafale, Typhoon etc.,) ..

Above statement points finger at IAF who kept changing ASR whenever their previous ASR was about to freeze..

Again these things are already discussed to its depth in this same thread..

I think who ever wish to crib on 32 years development story and Mig-21 crash events may better revisit those threads as nothing new can be discussed over it anymore.. ersakthivel wrote very well on these topics.


So what we do now ? Demoralize our present scientists and technicians for previous govts and bureaucrats faults who are working in same organization for nation cause ? ..

Well, who has commented on that? Me?

So, what is your beef?

Hurt ego of nationalism?

Russian equipment is govt to govt and no arms dealer.

Hold the Govt of that time responsible for the promises made but not delivered.

Even the submarine deal of India selecting HDW over Kokum was mired with controversies and then the inquiry was closed. How and why?
HDW submarine deal case: CBI asked to file closure report
The Hindu : HDW submarine deal case: CBI asked to file closure report

It is time for people to realise how development is done, trials are conducted and how procurement is done and what political, economic considerations go into the govt decision and how such decisions are made.

Clichés and bruised and hurt nationalism is not the answer or way forward.

Holding people and organisations accountable is the answer for lapses and omissions and commissions.

 

[Ray]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

My point not answered..

When they can buy Su 30 MKI without battle ready, what stopped them to induct Tejas and let ADA & HAL continue development.. (Same thing happened with all successful jets be it F16, Rafale, Typhoon etc.,) ..

Above statement points finger at IAF who kept changing ASR whenever their previous ASR was about to freeze..

Again these things are already discussed to its depth in this same thread..

I think who ever wish to crib on 32 years development story and Mig-21 crash events may better revisit those threads as nothing new can be discussed over it anymore.. ersakthivel wrote very well on these topics.

They have been answered.

Sun 30 MkI is combat ready. But then owing to lack of spares, only 40% of the fleet are operational. Spares is a procurement issue. Negotiation issue and not selection issue by the IAF. IAF can only give the selection. The PNC does the negotiation and that is not an IAF responsibility.

Please indicate where and how ASR have been changed.

I have explained why MIG 21s crashed that is more of a cogent explanation than the bunkum passed as explanations.

How is it that our Missile Programme is moving so well and in a timebound manner, when the missile technology is so close guarded a secret and with such large number of international treaties preventing any passing of technology to others and even more advanced than aircraft technology? And one might add that sanctions that affected Tejas were equally applicable to the missile development too.

How is it that Arihant is on the scene? IS nuclear submarine technology a child's play? It has worked since the Project was conceptualised and then the 'goods' were put into place and work done before the hoop la over it was done.