Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[mystic avatar]

#Breaking : #India seriously considering
@Boeing
's F18 for both
@IAF_MCC
@indiannavy
! US defence gaint might make this deal sweeter by opening up new manufacturing unit under #MakeInIndia. #IndianAirForce facing number crunch of fighter jets while facing constant threats!

Stealth F18 G must be mouth watering deal for our Navy and Airforce. Clear advantage over #Pakistan and #China in many aspects.



Wait, whaaaaat?????

MoD cannot buy large no of fighter like that. We have to go through process and select L1. This news looks like Boeing propaganda.

 

[Holy Triad]

I have always maintained that the F-18 is the only viable American aircraft that India can consider if it really has to buy American. However, I think this is hogwash. Rafale for the IAF is a done deal. So then purchasing SH for IN does not make any sense logistically as well as financially.

Unless USA agrees for TOT and not just assembly plants, the deal will never happen. Also, Su30 is superior to F18. Why will India go for F18? Only advantage of F18 is that it can take off from CATOBAR carrier but India has only STOBAR carrier

MoD cannot buy large no of fighter like that. We have to go through process and select L1. This news looks like Boeing propaganda.

If this news true(god forbid),I think its more to do with political maneuver,rather than IAF,IN needs. Trump is pro boeing ,anti lockheed Martin(defsec is former boeing exec) so he sharply supported the block 3,and hailed its a "stealth" aircraft. so he might be pressuring our govt. to Buy American aircraft(boeing) to promote his self interest.

I hope, this news is fake.let's stick with rafale for both navy/air force. most importantly,French offer comes without hidden clauses.

 

[Holy Triad]

Looks like this rumor has started from this FE article,
well,now we know!!!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If this news true(god forbid),I think its more to do with political maneuver,rather than IAF,IN needs. Trump is pro boeing ,anti lockheed Martin(defsec is former boeing exec) so he sharply supported the block 3,and hailed its a "stealth" aircraft. so he might be pressuring our govt. to Buy American aircraft(boeing) to promote his self interest.

I hope, this news is fake.let's stick with rafale for both navy/air force. most importantly,French offer comes without hidden clauses.

USA is not a friend to bow to their pressure. USA gives nothing to India. Why should India give anything to USA? India may buy some items to bridge trade deficit but would not buy these big items. They are simply not worth it in terms of long term irritation and potential bugs/espionage

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

People do realise that regardless of the plane that is selected 85% of planes will have to be Made in India right?

Assembled, not manufactured. We need manufacturing of critical items. Rafale will have Kaveri & UTTAM and hence it can be fully indigenous which is not the case with USA items

 

[Bleh]

Unless USA agrees for TOT and not just assembly plants, the deal will never happen.

Ideally with GE-414 EPE too... would solve a lot of problems.

 

[Holy Triad]

USA is not a friend to bow to their pressure. USA gives nothing to India. Why should India give anything to USA? India may buy some items to bridge trade deficit but would not buy these big items. They are simply not worth it in terms of long term irritation and potential bugs/espionage

He tries, that's it, We bought s400 despite their pressure. Bjp govt. never budge to murica,cause they have first hand experience with them(1998sanctions).

 

[Holy Triad]

Rafale will have Kaveri & UTTAM

Its news to me, pls do share the links if you have.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Its news to me, pls do share the links if you have.

No link for that. If Rafale wins the MMRCA they will have to manufacture some planes here (85% minimum). For that that user thinks that France will allow us to use Uttam and Kaveri. What will happen is that they will either set up plants here to manufacture their own Radar and M88, as a JV, or they will import kits which will be used to assemble the plane.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

No link for that. If Rafale wins the MMRCA they will have to manufacture some planes here (85% minimum). For that that user thinks that France will allow us to use Uttam and Kaveri. What will happen is that they will either set up plants here to manufacture their own Radar and M88, as a JV, or they will import kits which will be used to assemble the plane.

Its news to me, pls do share the links if you have.

I have said that if Rafale is having less indigenisation compared to Su30 MKI, then Rafale is not worth buying. So, Rfale must have at least same indigenisation level of Su30 MKI which includes engine and radar indigenisation.

Even if France makes the radar in India, the source codes is what is most important without which the radar is useless. Making the TR module of AESA is already available with India in GAETEC (that is how UTTAM was made). Also, importing M88 engine makes no sense as that will be a big risk and unnecessary complication when we can anyways make Al31F for Su30. Why create unnecessary complications by buying rafale?

 

[gryphus-scarface]

I have said that if Rafale is having less indigenisation compared to Su30 MKI, then Rafale is not worth buying. So, Rfale must have at least same indigenisation level of Su30 MKI which includes engine and radar indigenisation.

Even if France makes the radar in India, the source codes is what is most important without which the radar is useless. Making the TR module of AESA is already available with India in GAETEC (that is how UTTAM was made). Also, importing M88 engine makes no sense as that will be a big risk and unnecessary complication when we can anyways make Al31F for Su30. Why create unnecessary complications by buying rafale?

Its even more complicated to integrate a different radar and engine. There is no complication in this. This is how it is done. It sucks that we won't have full control over the Rafales we buy but that's how it works.

We might be allowed to build the radar that is needed by Rafale, but we will not be able to access the source code.

 

[Gandaberunda]

If this news true(god forbid),I think its more to do with political maneuver,rather than IAF,IN needs. Trump is pro boeing ,anti lockheed Martin(defsec is former boeing exec) so he sharply supported the block 3,and hailed its a "stealth" aircraft. so he might be pressuring our govt. to Buy American aircraft(boeing) to promote his self interest.

I hope, this news is fake.let's stick with rafale for both navy/air force. most importantly,French offer comes without hidden clauses.

Rafale navy variant is underperformer and not suitable for Indian Aircraft carrier. Rafale wings are not foldable and Dassault cannot come up with folding wings but they offered detachable wings which is big No. Super hornet suits our AC operations and is proven fighter jet for Navy with foldable wings landing short takeoff helps in space constraints and overall operations. Navy will go with super hornet and it's best choice as well. For IAF Rafale is best choice made

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Its even more complicated to integrate a different radar and engine. There is no complication in this. This is how it is done. It sucks that we won't have full control over the Rafales we buy but that's how it works.

We might be allowed to build the radar that is needed by Rafale, but we will not be able to access the source code.

Who makes it work this way? If it was only this way, what are the offset about? Why does India need Rafae at all? What use does it serve? Su30 MKI is the best 4th generation plane available and a mere radar & avionics upgrade would have made it better than Rafale. What is the point of buying Rafale at all if there is no indigenisation of important things?

Also, using Indian radar is not complicated as India has already developed its radar. Only thing India needs is the FBW codes and the design license. The internal electronics made by India for Tejas can be modified to be used in rafale.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Show me one instance of this happening worldwide. It takes a whole lot more effort to integrate a new radar into the plane than to manufacture the parts and ship them. Su-30 MKI is a good plane but it is a heavy fighter with very high RCS. Rafale has a much lower RCS.

Also, using Indian radar is not complicated as India has already developed its radar. Only thing India needs is the FBW codes and the design license. The internal electronics made by India for Tejas can be modified to be used in rafale.

You seem to think that integrating something like a radar is more easy than manufacturing in France and shipping it here. That is false. If necessary they will set up a plant here to manufacture the radar. They won't go through the effort of integrating Uttam, when Uttam hasn't even been considered for Tejas Mk1A

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Show me one instance of this happening worldwide. It takes a whole lot more effort to integrate a new radar into the plane than to manufacture the parts and ship them. Su-30 MKI is a good plane but it is a heavy fighter with very high RCS. Rafale has a much lower RCS

Again, RCS! Stop your whining on RCS. Rafale has lower RCS than Su30 but that does not make it any stealth plane. It is still detectable and hardly ahs any big advantage. Its Spectra EW is also useless against AESA radar and hence hardly gives any benefit. So, simply whining of RCS is unacceptable. Give me proper reason to justify Rafale over Su30.

You seem to think that integrating something like a radar is more easy than manufacturing in France and shipping it here. That is false. If necessary they will set up a plant here to manufacture the radar. They won't go through the effort of integrating Uttam, when Uttam hasn't even been considered for Tejas Mk1A

Do you understand that Rafale first batch itself will take till 2023 to be finished? Also, AeroIndia 2019 interview with Ananthakrishna has shown that UTTAM is expected to be in Tejas MK1A.

The timeline of 2023 for the MMRCA2 to begin shows that UTTAM would have been ready by then for integration. What exactly is hard in using a different radar and avionics? It is not just the radar but entire avionics and all electronics will be replaced with Indian made ones which are available. This was how Su30 was initially made to use Israeli avionics. How do you think Israeli avionics was integrated in Su30 MKI? Integrating avionics in a plane is like replacing the audio deck of Innova into Bolero SUV. They are not at all hard.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Again, RCS! Stop your whining on RCS. Rafale has lower RCS than Su30 but that does not make it any stealth plane. It is still detectable and hardly ahs any big advantage. Its Spectra EW is also useless against AESA radar and hence hardly gives any benefit. So, simply whining of RCS is unacceptable. Give me proper reason to justify Rafale over Su30.

Rafale has a public RCS of 0.75m^2. That means the F-16 block 52+ that PAF operates can't see the Rafale within at least 100 km. That gives the Rafale a massive advantage in BVR combat, along with Meteor. Stealth was always for BVR, not for WVR, where IRST and Radar can easily track any target.

Do you understand that Rafale first batch itself will take till 2023 to be finished? Also, AeroIndia 2019 interview with Ananthakrishna has shown that UTTAM is expected to be in Tejas MK1A.

The timeline of 2023 for the MMRCA2 to begin shows that UTTAM would have been ready by then for integration. What exactly is hard in using a different radar and avionics? It is not just the radar but entire avionics and all electronics will be replaced with Indian made ones which are available. This was how Su30 was initially made to use Israeli avionics. How do you think Israeli avionics was integrated in Su30 MKI? Integrating avionics in a plane is like replacing the audio deck of Innova into Bolero SUV. They are not at all hard.

Irrelevant. The deal will have to explicitly demand adding Uttam as an India specific upgrade. The idea that a radar can be replaced as simply as changing audio decks in a car demonstrates a lack of knowledge. The systems need to be compatible with each other. They need to be extensively tested. You've probably heard of certification. There's a reason all the newer planes have a feature called "open platform". That means its much easier to do upgrades. What is the API of the radar? How will it communicate with the data link? How will it interact with the other software, like SPECTRA? How will it send data to the screen? The more integrated parts are, the harder they are to replace.

You may have noted that the Su-30 MKI explicitly required Israeli and French avionics. It was demanded. It wasn't like we bought the planes and then just stuck a few Israeli parts, then called it a day.

 

[akk]

I am no expert so please do not abuse me if I ask something stupid.
With networking and data from awacs, su30 (mini awacs), other radars in region, drones and potentially other sources being available in real time, how much difference it makes if the aircraft's own radar has less range or capability? Can the aircraft not launch missiles using data from other sources?

 

[gryphus-scarface]

I am no expert so please do not abuse me if I ask something stupid.
With networking and data from awacs, su30 (mini awacs), other radars in region, drones and potentially other sources being available in real time, how much difference it makes if the aircraft's own radar has less range or capability? Can the aircraft not launch missiles using data from other sources?

It depends on the plane in question. One of the main aims of a data link is to use Radars from some other source to provide fire control for all planes. So in theory yes. For e.g. I think the Su-30 can link with our AWACS (I'm not sure) to fire its BVR missiles, while staying passive itself. In a hypothetical sitaion, if Tejas had to face of against the Su-30 MKI, then the Tejas has a disadvantage due to smaller and less capable radar. It could over come this if an AWACS was on its side. Then the AWACS could easily track the Su-30 MKI, while the Tejas flies with its radar off. It could engage the Su-30 from BVR, potentially before the Su-30 could even find the Tejas.

 

[akk]

It depends on the plane in question. One of the main aims of a data link is to use Radars from some other source to provide fire control for all planes. So in theory yes. For e.g. I think the Su-30 can link with our AWACS (I'm not sure) to fire its BVR missiles, while staying passive itself. In a hypothetical sitaion, if Tejas had to face of against the Su-30 MKI, then the Tejas has a disadvantage due to smaller and less capable radar. It could over come this if an AWACS was on its side. Then the AWACS could easily track the Su-30 MKI, while the Tejas flies with its radar off. It could engage the Su-30 from BVR, potentially before the Su-30 could even find the Tejas.

Many thanks. That would mean our govt should urgently work towards more awacs, better integration, better bvr missiles and it may be a great force multiplier. We can send different tejas aircraft to the front with agm to attack and others loaded with bvr to defend, both assisted by awacs or su30 radar.

Another question. Everyone says su30 is like mini awacs. Does it compensate for our lack of awacs aircraft?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Irrelevant. The deal will have to explicitly demand adding Uttam as an India specific upgrade. The idea that a radar can be replaced as simply as changing audio decks in a car demonstrates a lack of knowledge. The systems need to be compatible with each other. They need to be extensively tested. You've probably heard of certification. There's a reason all the newer planes have a feature called "open platform". That means its much easier to do upgrades. What is the API of the radar? How will it communicate with the data link? How will it interact with the other software, like SPECTRA? How will it send data to the screen? The more integrated parts are, the harder they are to replace.

We will replace everything from SPECTRA to EW to HMDS, cockpit etc. Since what is needed for flying is just airframe and FBW, changing electronics completely is possible. What problem is there if entire LRU and avionics of Rafale is replaced by the ones for Tejas? Can you explain?

Yes, the requirement for indigenisation is a demand and indigenisation means that India will be able to reproduce rafale fully. If France is unwilling to give technology to India, then it has to allow Indian owned technology to be substituted. That is why $4 billion of offset is paid. In fact 50% of the cost of deal is in offset! What offsets would anyone need to that extent?

Rafale has a public RCS of 0.75m^2. That means the F-16 block 52+ that PAF operates can't see the Rafale within at least 100 km. That gives the Rafale a massive advantage in BVR combat, along with Meteor. Stealth was always for BVR, not for WVR, where IRST and Radar can easily track any target.

Su30 has massive radar with a diameter of 1 meter! That more than compensates for its higher RCS. 0.75m RCS is quite big to be located within BVR range. We will never fire any missile beyond 80km as the time for missile t fly that far will be too high and enable enemy plane to escape easily.