Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Vijyes]

I now see the problem, but the Air Force's solution is still not very convincing.
The questions I have remaining are:

1. Will these single-engine fighters have better availability than Rafael? I don't think so. Will these be inducted into service faster than Rafael? I don't know, the Rafael deal is already through and there are options for more. We do not have to negotiate a deal from scratch. Rafael will undoubtedly be more expensive, so we will have to buy these in lesser numbers than the F-16. But the balance strength can be made up by Tejas Mk2.
2. The Tejas Mk2 can be built at the same rate at which F-16 will be ~3 a month. The only catch here is that the Tejas Mk2 will begin production a couple of years after the F-16 iff the F-16 deal is struck in record time. This explains why the Air Force is showing urgency about this deal: if the F-16 deal is struck late, it will become a pointless decision, maybe even a counterproductive one. My question: Can the Air Force not make do with a couple of years delay in aircraft strength which will, at worse, lead to no offensive capability for a few more years?

Another angle to all this is the drastic increase in SAM strength and capability that we are likely to witness in the coming years. All this will, to some extent, offset weakness induced by a reduced fleet. Another angle is the induction of stand-off weapons such as the Brahmos-A and Brahmos NG.
The only reason why the Air Force logic seems sound to me is because Tejas Mk2 is not flying yet, and may get delayed. In such a scenario 5 years down the road, many would consider the F-16 deal a better option in hindsight.


Don't worry about that. @Vijyes has a problem understanding the concept of modern limited warfare. He still lives in the World War-2 era, where its either total war or no war. And if its total war, we need every machine in the thousands, the technological advancements of the last 72 years notwithstanding. He does not get modern diplomacy and its pillar which is modern military deterrence. Previous attempts at dispelling this state of mind have failed. See this:-



Its pointless trying to argue with this Brahmastra of his.

Please explain the concept of limited war to me (not ceasefire violations). There must be objective, both short and long term.

As per my doctrine - war or no war, there is no point in urgency to buy imported planes. Now, if you invent new concepts which you yourself can't understand, then there is no way I can discuss that

 

[Chinmoy]

Please explain the concept of limited war to me (not ceasefire violations). There must be objective, both short and long term.

As per my doctrine - war or no war, there is no point in urgency to buy imported planes. Now, if you invent new concepts which you yourself can't understand, then there is no way I can discuss that

Its going to derail the thread. Carry on in chit chat thread for discussion.

 

[Scarface]

You completely missed my point.

First of all, the F35 is a runaway freight train (in terms of costs). Don't go anywhere near it!!

Secondly, look at things from the US perspective. The MIC in the US lobbied hard to get Congress (and Trump) to agree to sell us the Guardian drones, and to agree to shift the F-16 production to India. This, without getting any concrete assurance us that we'll buy either! There are fears in the US MIC, that the Guardians are just a ploy for the GoI to show a semblance of a competition when the decision has already been made to procure Heron TP drones.

Similar fears exist for the SE competition. That it's just a diversion.

I'm not saying that we need to follow the US' directives. Hell no, all I'm saying is it would be prudent to buy the F-16 Blk 70 since there is an urgent requirement, and the Gripen is never going to take off - for reasons I've already stated. The F-16 on offer is NOT a bad plane, far from it. It's also cheaper than the Gripen, although the later has a better life-cycle cost. The deal can easily replace five squadrons worth of fighters in little to no time - and perhaps, the Tatas could be asked to help perfect and produce the Tejas mk2 afterwards.

Agree with almost everything except the F-35 being too expensive part,I especially don't understand where the concept that

Gripen is miles ahead of the F-16 Blk 70/72 in combat capability comes from except SAAB pamphlets about the Gripen E which might I add is a paper plane and does not exist yet,even in the limited trials which will be conducted SAAB will probably send a tech demonstrator instead of the real deal meanwhile Lockheed has a reliable demonstrator to show, the Block 60.

But the very reason the SE tender exists is to give the contract to Lockheed and buy F-16 which is the ticket to the F-35,which we have been offered multiple times,once during the MRCA tender in which the precondition was the purchase of over 100 F-16s,
Then once again unconditionally offered to us which was ignored and Lockheed doesn't seem to have taken it very well and hence the precondition is back on

Of course I will admit its pure speculation on my part but with such little information about things,what else can one do.

 

[Vinod DX9]

New camo for Garud
Along with possibly an old one too

l

 

[tsunami]

As per FB page... First images of NGARM(drop only) and SAAW test pics...

 

[square]

Agree with almost everything except the F-35 being too expensive part,I especially don't understand where the concept that

Gripen is miles ahead of the F-16 Blk 70/72 in combat capability comes from except SAAB pamphlets about the Gripen E which might I add is a paper plane and does not exist yet,even in the limited trials which will be conducted SAAB will probably send a tech demonstrator instead of the real deal meanwhile Lockheed has a reliable demonstrator to show, the Block 60.

But the very reason the SE tender exists is to give the contract to Lockheed and buy F-16 which is the ticket to the F-35,which we have been offered multiple times,once during the MRCA tender in which the precondition was the purchase of over 100 F-16s,
Then once again unconditionally offered to us which was ignored and Lockheed doesn't seem to have taken it very well and hence the precondition is back on

Of course I will admit its pure speculation on my part but with such little information about things,what else can one do.

why not we just buy second hand f16......

 

[Vijyes]

why not we just buy second hand f16......

Because it has 0 indigenous content. F16 is offering to build about 60% by value in India itself while importing the complex technology like engine and radars.

 

[Kyubi]

Because it has 0 indigenous content. F16 is offering to build about 60% by value in India itself while importing the complex technology like engine and radars.

Its just not worth having lockheed martin build it here if the only take away is its assembly line production process touted to be advanced . If enough orders are placed for the MK1a and MK2 then HAL will keep upgrading its production centers and churn equal or more number than F16s ...

If a home grown fighter program isnot supported till the end then We should never expect AMCA to roll out of HAL.. how can one expect HAL to upgrade its facilities if it has few orders on hand.. its not CKD kits which are being assembled .. its an entire gamut of aerospace clusters being nurtered and its sustenance is what is required for this country to have a viable MIC..

-

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[SELVAM]

Iraq has made the first payment in a deal to buy 18 US F-16 fighter jets worth a total of about $3bn (£1.9bn), the US state department has said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15083193


18 f16 costs $ 3 billions dollars for iraq. Good luck with replacing 200 mig 21s with 16. It will cost us next 20 year iaf budget

 

[SELVAM]

Russians screwed us by forcing india to buy large no of flankers. Bastard mulayam singh was bribed by Russians to cancel large order for mirage 2000 jets. Now we r left with these white elephant flankers in large numbers. any iaf pilot will pick mirage over su 30. Same is happening with rafale order.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This single engine fighter is total madness. It caters to the import fetish developed by IAF over the years even when our own fighter Tejas is ready.
If we have to import some fighter designed over 40-50 years ago then why not Hal Marut MK2 with some modern electronics which was rejected by IAF in 70's. It will do a better job than these F-16 or Gripen with modified Kaveri engine fitted on it and an airframe made of light weight composite material

 

[patriots]

I am not agnaist the se ..fighter deal ...I m not agnaist of tejas ......first try to understand several points.....

1. first tejas is different from f16 and gripen
2. tejas falls in light category where other 2s are in medium catagory ....so load capacity of tejas is lower than f16 and gripen
3.also tejas s range is low suitable for interceptor role ......
4. being honest Rafael is the best choice but iaf is keen to fulfill 42 squadron. with limited resources so .. se ..fighter is the only option
5.if will buy se fighters we will get technology
6, without tot ...we should not
7.then without develoing tejas mk 2.which is in design phase...hal should ficus on amca (as se jets will be produced by private comp)
8. I think govt may reduce the no of se jets..let's hope we will se more tejas



I am a fan of tejas ......but these are the facts

 

[Vijyes]

Russians screwed us by forcing india to buy large no of flankers. Bastard mulayam singh was bribed by Russians to cancel large order for mirage 2000 jets. Now we r left with these white elephant flankers in large numbers. any iaf pilot will pick mirage over su 30. Same is happening with rafale order.

Rafale is different from Su30. Su30 is better than mirage and has decent make in india components compared to the mirage. Most of today's su30 orders was done by Vajpayee government.

 

[F-14B]

but there is another thing when India bought the Mirage 2000H there was an offer by Daussult for localized production The sale of US F-16s to Pakistan prompted India to enter talks with France regarding the purchase of the Mirage 2000. In October 1982, the country placed an order with Dassault for 36 single-seat Mirage 2000Hs and 4 twin-seat Mirage 2000THs (with H standing for "Hindustan"). Previously, negotiations were underway for a purchase of up to 150 aircraft, which would have paved the way for joint production with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. In any case, the number of aircraft ordered was too small for such an arrangement. India nevertheless had the option to produce a number of Mirage 2000s under license that was later scrapped due to the country's close relationship with the Soviet Union. India also purchased ATLIS II pods and laser-guided weapons for the Mirage, which the IAF had named the "Vajra" (Sanskrit: वज्र, for Lightning, Thunderbolt).[26]

 

[SELVAM]

Rafale is different from Su30. Su30 is better than mirage and has decent make in india components compared to the mirage. Most of today's su30 orders was done by Vajpayee government.

No, still first choice of iaf pilots is mirage.Only thing su 30 offered to india is screw driver jobs for HAL employees. This is the reason we still running behind Russians for spare parts.
.read the following article
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...velopment-is-mere-purchase/article8199677.ece

 

[Sidd]

Rafale is different from Su30. Su30 is better than mirage and has decent make in india components compared to the mirage. Most of today's su30 orders was done by Vajpayee government.

We have no control of any component for Mirage 2000 whatsoever. It's just a direct buy
Su30MKI, on the other hand, has indigenous components & we can make in from raw materials albeit some critical components which are to be sourced from Russia only.
Now what India should do is to indigenize every part of Su30MKI, I know about the contract and everything but you won't become big player until you do something big..So instead of asking to Russians for Super Sukhoi program..India should incorporate indigenous products such as Uttam radar derivatives and other AMCA tech in Su30mki for Super Sukhoi program at least in batches and evaluate it's performance.Until and unless India do that..we would always be importing stuff.

And yes cancel this SF tender drama.Do you know uncle sam would give you any ToT & even if TASL got any would they use that in AMCA?

 

[Sidd]

I am not agnaist the se ..fighter deal ...I m not agnaist of tejas ......first try to understand several points.....

1. first tejas is different from f16 and gripen
2. tejas falls in light category where other 2s are in medium catagory ....so load capacity of tejas is lower than f16 and gripen
3.also tejas s range is low suitable for interceptor role ......
4. being honest Rafael is the best choice but iaf is keen to fulfill 42 squadron. with limited resources so .. se ..fighter is the only option
5.if will buy se fighters we will get technology
6, without tot ...we should not
7.then without develoing tejas mk 2.which is in design phase...hal should ficus on amca (as se jets will be produced by private comp)
8. I think govt may reduce the no of se jets..let's hope we will se more tejas



I am a fan of tejas ......but these are the facts

Actually original tender for MMRCA was only 120 jets & maybe some additional jets & both F16 and Gripen FAILED in those tests.
Secondly, we have to replace 350 odd migs in the next decade.Only logical choice is TEJAS..(It's of the same class).You would not replace migs with F16.So at least 16 Sq of Tejas is must.

"You guys must realize this is all the game of import mafia...repeating same what happened to MARUT..It's Déjà vu "

Coming to MMRCA.India must go for RAFALE MII there is no other way out.

 

[Sidd]

Because it has 0 indigenous content. F16 is offering to build about 60% by value in India itself while importing the complex technology like engine and radars.

So what would you get building(screwing) 60% of F16(4th gen not even 4.5) by value..few jobs????

 

[rohit b3]

I am not agnaist the se ..fighter deal ...I m not agnaist of tejas ......first try to understand several points.....

1. first tejas is different from f16 and gripen
2. tejas falls in light category where other 2s are in medium catagory ....so load capacity of tejas is lower than f16 and gripen
3.also tejas s range is low suitable for interceptor role ......
4. being honest Rafael is the best choice but iaf is keen to fulfill 42 squadron. with limited resources so .. se ..fighter is the only option
5.if will buy se fighters we will get technology
6, without tot ...we should not
7.then without develoing tejas mk 2.which is in design phase...hal should ficus on amca (as se jets will be produced by private comp)
8. I think govt may reduce the no of se jets..let's hope we will se more tejas



I am a fan of tejas ......but these are the facts

Let me rectify your points

1. Tejas and Gripen both the same category

2. Tejas and Gripen both are LCAs, F16 is a MMRCA. However with new models and upgrades, the Gripen's capabilities have enhanced and its payload and range on the Gripen E is comparable to MMRCA. Thats the whole idea of the Tejas mk2 as well.

3. Tejas mk2's range is comparable to both F16 and Gripen E. Tejas mk1 and Gripen C's range is almost the same.

4. No Rafale is not the best choice. Getting into a War with so many Rafales and Su-30MKI would mean due to heavy maintenance costs, India would run out of resources very soon.
There's a reason why US has 900+ Single Engine F-16s and lesser ,just 500,,more powerful twin engine F-15s. and even lesser, 196 F-22s

5.What technology? Everyone is on about "technology" . We have mastered most of the 4.5th gen tech with Tejas. Yes we have certain shortfalls(like any jet in the world), but spending 20 Bil$ to import new jets for a few shortfalls does not justify rationally.

6. Again, What T-o-T. What technology you want?

7. AMCA is not s substitute for Tejas mk2. Tejas is an incredible platform which needs to be upgraded in Mark/Block versions.

The mentality of people are see these days, its like , when Sweden developed the Gripen A/B model back in early 90s,..a matured American F-16 C/D version was already in operation.
Sweden should have junked the basic inferior Gripen A/B and bought US F-16 C/D instead.
Who cares about newer models , newer Research and developement. Right?

 

[laughingbuddha]

No matter how much we rant and tear our hair out, the IAF has decided upon a path to ensure squadron strength and battle plans must have been formulated accordingly.