Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[akshay m]

The first modernised Mirage 2000 took off from Bordeaux

With these pictures of the photographer and "spotter" Vincent Massé, we learn that the first upgraded Mirage 2000H of the Indian Air Force took off from BA 106 of Bordeaux, a sign that the update is complete.

Meanwhile hypothetical 126 Rafale, the Indian fighter can still count on its Mirage 2000! 51 aircraft, 46 Mirage EH (cars) and 13 TH (two-seater), dating from the 80s and whose modernization is engaged. Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA, indeed having won this contract by almost 3 billion euros in 2011 (2.72 exactly 1 Thales to Dassault 400 million euros and 959 million to MBDA missile) after 10 years of negotiations.

These Mirage are being currently provide a new avionics, electronic warfare equipment and a more powerful radar. The upgrade also provides armament and local infrastructure.

If 50 are yet to go through the workshops of Bordeaux / Merignac, one, nicknamed it the "KF107" as its number, has something to dream of a second youth Pax Aquitania: Le premier Mirage 2000 indien modernisé décolle de Bordeaux

 

[smestarz]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

The forums wouldn't be fun without thees butthurts, seeing their reaction now makes the occasion much more satisfying. You see once IAF pilots get the taste of this beaut they never look back again.

IAF pilots want a good plane they can use and most of the pilots are patriots and understand their duty. But then it is the top brass which is the problem which being shortsighted as their dire requirement for post retirement luxuries are trying their best to achieve some by writing their pro-import Articles in top indian news papers, and giving childish logics for the purchase such as Russian planes are not reliable and have lower availability rates, but then these people being ex-chiefs of service do not seem to have reply to questions like
A) Why do planes such as MiG-21, Mirage 2000 and Su-30 have good service records and availability in other air forces that use them and only IAF seems to be having problems
B) Why does IAF maintain annual spares of rs 50 crore for 200+ Su-30 MKI fleet when the requirement is that of Rs 3450 crores.

The IAF chiefs want to Buy Buy Buy, but seems they do not seem to focus on concept of maintaining the plane to ensure that the plane is at its best capability and performance. India is let down by the shortsightedness of some of its service chiefs.

 

[Illusive]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

IAF pilots want a good plane they can use and most of the pilots are patriots and understand their duty. But then it is the top brass which is the problem which being shortsighted as their dire requirement for post retirement luxuries are trying their best to achieve some by writing their pro-import Articles in top indian news papers, and giving childish logics for the purchase such as Russian planes are not reliable and have lower availability rates, but then these people being ex-chiefs of service do not seem to have reply to questions like
A) Why do planes such as MiG-21, Mirage 2000 and Su-30 have good service records and availability in other air forces that use them and only IAF seems to be having problems
B) Why does IAF maintain annual spares of rs 50 crore for 200+ Su-30 MKI fleet when the requirement is that of Rs 3450 crores.

The IAF chiefs want to Buy Buy Buy, but seems they do not seem to focus on concept of maintaining the plane to ensure that the plane is at its best capability and performance. India is let down by the shortsightedness of some of its service chiefs.

Its surprising that our brass takes these things very lightly when they know we live in one of the world's most hostile neighborhood where our country participated in 5 wars and 1 failed attempt. History says whenever our military was weak we were dominated be it turks or brits, and thats because the rot was inside. So i hope our pilots raise their voices effectively cause we live in a era were voices can be heard.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Tejas concept Interesting and good art work .

 

[smestarz]

Its surprising that our brass takes these things very lightly when they know we live in one of the world's most hostile neighborhood where our country participated in 5 wars and 1 failed attempt. History says whenever our military was weak we were dominated be it turks or brits, and thats because the rot was inside. So i hope our pilots raise their voices effectively cause we live in a era were voices can be heard.

The way I see it, the intention of the IAF top brass was to somehow go for the french products.
I do agree the French Rafale is good, but as seen there are many alternatives and one of the other competitors is what we use Su-30 MKI.
The price of Rafale per plane to India will be about US$ 175 million per plane at least
I read report that for 24 Rafales and 1 FREMM, Egypt paid about US$ 5.5 billion, now assuming that the FREMM is higher cost say US$ 1 billion that leaves US$ 4.5 billion for 24 Rafales. That is US$ 187 million per plane, where are the people who are talking of US$ 90 million?
Now the earlier reported cost of FREMM was US$ 500 million and in that case the price per plane goes to US$ 205 million per plane.

Thus what these air chiefs want to do in a way is scuttle Tejas and they have come up with all sort of comparisons of Tejas with Rafale, These planes are different all together. Tejas is more of a light MRCA (and i am not going in weight class) but about cost of using, operating and maintaining a single engine plane vs Twin engine Rafale. These air chiefs sometime talk "We want more nos fast" now if you put the two statements in prespective what they mean to say is "INDIA SHOULD ORDER RAFALE IN BIG NOS THAT ITS MORE THAN SU-30 MKI"
These ex-IAF chiefs have never spent a dime from their pocket for their servicemen, they dont know hell about managing resources.

 

[akshay m]

Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight

russia has indeed offered india a super flanker or su35 MKI

Intensifying since the turn of the new year, you couldn't possibly have missed the roar of AL-31s in all talk of India's turbulent final dash for a Rafale jet deal. It's unmissable. The fact that the Su-30 MKI was pushed into the M-MRCA conversation by none other than India's defence minister ensured the notion strengthened quickly, unscathed by intrigue and rumours. And then, it exploded.


curious Russian media reportquotes junior minister in the MEA, former Army chief, Gen (Retd.) Vijay Kumar Singh as having said that the Su-30 was cheaper than the Rafale and more reliable.

In February, with the Su-30 vs. Rafale debate stewing for nearly two months to the consternation of Dassault, IAF chief Arup Raha was fairly buttonholed into saying, "There's M-MRCA and there's Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other." A statement, it was immediately clear, that practically subverted what the Defence Minister had suggested.

At Aero India 2015, where the IAF chief made that comment, the spotlight also shined on friction between Sukhoi and the IAF over the unexplained seat ejection that caused the type's fifth accident last year. The Russians weren't happy. "When we are wrong, we will say so. When the Indian pilot is wrong, the IAF should not be shy to admit that," an irritated UAC officer told me at the time.

Dassault Aviation and the French government were always prepared for rumblings of power-play and suggestive pressure from the Indian MoD, but the speed at which the conversation heated up caught all involved by surprise. For Dassault, it would now be fighting on two fronts -- one with a confident new government that promised quick action either way. And two, with the Russians, India's largest supplier of military hardware, practically invited into the tense last lap of the M-MRCA fight by the Indian MoD. The French Defence Minister, who visited Delhi last month for the second time in less than two months, didn't bring up the Su-30 MKI. The French didn't have a direct play, political or otherwise. It was felt that things were too delicate at the negotiations table to poke at something that was, Paris understood, a direct message that India wasn't going to budge on final sticking points. Informed that it needed to work on a joint liability matrix with HAL for the license build programme, Dassault decided to bide its time.

Of course, by this time, plenty of journalism in India, Russia and France -- and the furious online military aviation subculture -- had gotten the Rafale and Su-30 to dogfight on paper. It wasn't until March that France's patience cashed out. It was a veritable neutron bomb on the Su-30's two month supercruise through arms & diplomatic circles, and even the French couldn't have expected such a break: a statement by Defence Minister Parrikar himself that the Su-30 fleet had serious problems.

For Dassault and the French government, the new conversation was

Here's the latest state of play:

Russia smells real blood. Through their Trade Office and the Embassy, an existing conversation about additional numbers of the Su-30 & upgrades of earlier units has been re-energised with the additional sweetener of a markedly higher degree of local content and sourcing on any additional Su-30s India may choose to license build in Nashik.
Livefist can confirm that Russia has also offered India the Su-35 'Super Flanker', but kept the details open. The type is officially on the table now with Russia inviting India to help configure a Su-35 'MKI'.
Russia is attempting to contain the twin damage of (a) information about engine trouble and fleet availability. Rosoboronexport has begun discussions with the IAF and HAL. And (b) the issue of the mysterious seat ejections. Both sides have decided to sort out the issue cordially and in private. It doesn't want to lose the momentum it received from the initial suggestion that more Su-30s could cushion the potential collapse of the M-MRCA.
Dassault and HAL are currently working at a furious pace to have something to show to the MoD in the next one week, though it remains unlikely that there will be anything for Prime Minister Modi & President Hollande to announce next week in Paris.
On March 18, Defence Minister Parrikar said, "They have to tell us whether they can do it or not. Can't keep waiting."

LIVEFIST: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight

 

[Illusive]

The way I see it, the intention of the IAF top brass was to somehow go for the french products.
I do agree the French Rafale is good, but as seen there are many alternatives and one of the other competitors is what we use Su-30 MKI.
The price of Rafale per plane to India will be about US$ 175 million per plane at least
I read report that for 24 Rafales and 1 FREMM, Egypt paid about US$ 5.5 billion, now assuming that the FREMM is higher cost say US$ 1 billion that leaves US$ 4.5 billion for 24 Rafales. That is US$ 187 million per plane, where are the people who are talking of US$ 90 million?
Now the earlier reported cost of FREMM was US$ 500 million and in that case the price per plane goes to US$ 205 million per plane.

Thus what these air chiefs want to do in a way is scuttle Tejas and they have come up with all sort of comparisons of Tejas with Rafale, These planes are different all together. Tejas is more of a light MRCA (and i am not going in weight class) but about cost of using, operating and maintaining a single engine plane vs Twin engine Rafale. These air chiefs sometime talk "We want more nos fast" now if you put the two statements in prespective what they mean to say is "INDIA SHOULD ORDER RAFALE IN BIG NOS THAT ITS MORE THAN SU-30 MKI"
These ex-IAF chiefs have never spent a dime from their pocket for their servicemen, they dont know hell about managing resources.

The way i see it, IAF was smitten by mirage's performance after Kargil war, so they are inclined towards a western fighter, but the whole saga(MMRCA swayamber) was a waste of time and money, should have directly bought Rafale with TOT. Now Migs are falling left and right and ringing the alarm bells which you pointed out towards IAF's lack of spare stocking. Lack of foresight and poor management.

 

[akshay m]

[tweet]579995001146339329[/tweet]

 

[smestarz]

The way i see it, IAF was smitten by mirage's performance after Kargil war, so they are inclined towards a western fighter, but the whole saga(MMRCA swayamber) was a waste of time and money, should have directly bought Rafale with TOT. Now Migs are falling left and right and ringing the alarm bells which you pointed out towards IAF's lack of spare stocking. Lack of foresight and poor management.

They are smitten because that is the only plane for which they could make kickbacks, for other planes specially Russian, its less. Further, if you analyse it, it is short sightedness of IAF top brass. Russians developed MiG-29 as an air superiority fighter, why could the IAF top brass not see possibility of MiG-29 as an MRCA ? If IAF required, the Russians would have developed MiG-29 as MRCA, but the IAF chiefs were comfortable following what the Russians were doing rather than developing our own ideas. Its not as if MiG-29 cannot be an MRCA, as of now, it is and with few tweaks it could have been developed to fire A2A as well as A2G missiles. Thus even IAF was comfortable to have MiG-29 as air superiority plane and Jaguar as deep strike plane. The Mirage 2000 were mainly to serve as nuclear deterrence and hence they were positioned centrally to be used as and when required. But since Jaguar could not strike in Kargil due to their limitations, Mirage 2000 became the remaining choice, but also remember that Mirage 2000 did not have a targeting pod or smart weapons. It was Israel and HAL who installed and developed the kit for using it. Thus was it purely Mirage 2000 to congratulate? Even if they could have put the kit on MiG-29, it possibly could have handled strike, but that would mean taking too much time as Mirage 2000 had strike capability.
It is funny, that IAF is so smitten that it spent about US$ 48 million per plane to upgrade Mirage 2000 where as Tejas comes at less than US$ 40 million for a new plane, you still feel there is nothing wrong? Was it not NAK Browne who had pushed for this upgrade?

 

[alphacentury]

 

[ezsasa]

Parrikar's own deadline on MMRCA of Mar 31st is fast approaching, will be interesting to see how he manages this !!!!
One thing i would not like to see is postponement of final decision. Then again final decision can't be taken until the committee report comes out.

 

[sgarg]

@ezsasa, the deadline may come and go without any official word. Defence procurement is highly complicated in India with military and economic relations entwined. There are too many dependencies on the French to call for an abrupt end.

Most likely Government already knows the writing on the wall. But calling a spade a spade is a different matter.

GOI will push for LCA Tejas and see what can be obtained from Russia that IAF will not oppose.

I believe MTA project with Russia is as good as dead. GOI will let IAF import more transports from USA if IAF lets fighters to come from Russia. We have to see if IAF plays ball.

I believe IAF will find it hard to oppose LCA even if it continues to oppose Russian fighters. IAF will also find it hard to oppose additional Su-30 as there is no sense in keeping the line idle until FGFA picks up.

 

[grampiguy]

They are smitten because that is the only plane for which they could make kickbacks, for other planes specially Russian, its less. Further, if you analyse it, it is short sightedness of IAF top brass. Russians developed MiG-29 as an air superiority fighter, why could the IAF top brass not see possibility of MiG-29 as an MRCA ? If IAF required, the Russians would have developed MiG-29 as MRCA, but the IAF chiefs were comfortable following what the Russians were doing rather than developing our own ideas. Its not as if MiG-29 cannot be an MRCA, as of now, it is and with few tweaks it could have been developed to fire A2A as well as A2G missiles. Thus even IAF was comfortable to have MiG-29 as air superiority plane and Jaguar as deep strike plane. The Mirage 2000 were mainly to serve as nuclear deterrence and hence they were positioned centrally to be used as and when required. But since Jaguar could not strike in Kargil due to their limitations, Mirage 2000 became the remaining choice, but also remember that Mirage 2000 did not have a targeting pod or smart weapons. It was Israel and HAL who installed and developed the kit for using it. Thus was it purely Mirage 2000 to congratulate? Even if they could have put the kit on MiG-29, it possibly could have handled strike, but that would mean taking too much time as Mirage 2000 had strike capability.
It is funny, that IAF is so smitten that it spent about US$ 48 million per plane to upgrade Mirage 2000 where as Tejas comes at less than US$ 40 million for a new plane, you still feel there is nothing wrong? Was it not NAK Browne who had pushed for this upgrade?

IAF started inducting Mirage-2000 aircraft from 1985 onwards and its inventory consisted of 49 Mirage 2000s by the end of 1980s. However, between 1985-1999, for almost 14 years what was IAF doing with the aircraft?? Why is it that when Kargil War started, they suddenly found that they had Laser Guided Bomb Paveways in the inventory but not the targeting pod?

Why did it start running from pillar to post, from French to Israeli OEMs to integrate that pod in 1999 while the aircraft was being used since 1985 ??? Is it that IAF is always eager to buy the fighter aircraft but never equips them properly with munitions and sub-components? Is the same happening in spare part inventory?? The way IAF conducted JUGAAD in the end and dropped Paveway LGBs, reeks of a "Chalta Hai"" attitude in this service.

 

[bhramos]

Saurav Jha's Blog : Transport aircraft futures for the Indian Air force

 

[smestarz]

IAF started inducting Mirage-2000 aircraft from 1985 onwards and its inventory consisted of 49 Mirage 2000s by the end of 1980s. However, between 1985-1999, for almost 14 years what was IAF doing with the aircraft?? Why is it that when Kargil War started, they suddenly found that they had Laser Guided Bomb Paveways in the inventory but not the targeting pod?

Why did it start running from pillar to post, from French to Israeli OEMs to integrate that pod in 1999 while the aircraft was being used since 1985 ??? Is it that IAF is always eager to buy the fighter aircraft but never equips them properly with munitions and sub-components? Is the same happening in spare part inventory?? The way IAF conducted JUGAAD in the end and dropped Paveway LGBs, reeks of a "Chalta Hai"" attitude in this service.

IAF is a professional service and that can be said about the pilots, but then Tactics and strategies is not really a pilots cup of tea. Planning strategies comes from experience and knowledge, If you see the situation IAF top brass had thought they had covered all the posts
a) MiG-29 for Air superiority (better than what PAF had)
b) Jaguar for Strike
c) Mirage 2000 for nuclear deterrence

Kargil actually in a way showed the Indian forces their weakness thanks to this Pakistani misadventure.
It was realized that the Jaguar did not have the sufficient power to operate successfully in Kargil area and hence the only capable plane to conduct strike was Mirage 2000, but as we know it was designated for nuclear delivery and was just armed with a gun, so then they had to hastilyy come up with a jugaad with help of HAL and Israeli OEM to put a targeting pod so that the laser guided bombs could be used accurately.

This incident shows the lack of vision at the topmost levels of IAF to foresee a situation. Had this come up when Pakistan would have been involved in full scale war, it would have cost us much.

As you see now, it is very much possible (and its being done) that planes like MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI can handle Multi roles and not only the role of Air superiority. It was the top brass of the IAF which did not have the vision to conceptualize it as such. Only after India wanted more Mirages and seeing other countries going for more roles for their planes that Su-30 MKI started to be developed for Strike capability as well. This is not only our situation, but most countries. USA with their F-15, UK. Germany and Italy with their Typhoons, Russia went to level of actually developing a new version of their Flankers for Strike role Su-34 Full back which in a way is commendable because for their air superiority they prefer single seat plane but for strike they prefer twin seater. France on other hand did approach the problem in different way, since they knew that their orders are not big (less than 200) it would be important for them to have a plane that can handle both air superiority and strike equally well. Thus as you see that when need arises thats when the evolution comes up. Now almost all the top Air superiority planes have excellent strike capabilities, all they need is good targeting pods and pylons to carry the A2G weapons.
Even in case of the Rafale thing, IAF is not fully understanding the problem and hence it has come up with a wrong solution and it will continue to do so till the service does not find leader with a vision and true patriot, and not buggers who want to enjoy nice retirement life in luxury.

 

[cobra commando]

Rostec :: News :: MiG-29UPG that was upgraded in India began scheduled flights

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

 

[Lions Of Punjab]