Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Sridhar_TN]

@Maharaj samudragupt lol. You like pretty much every post that’s in this forum eh? Haha

 

[Sridhar_TN]

no wonder IA and iAf wanted spike systems for lch. This gives the airborne system with spike nlos(a new weapon) the ability to hide behind a mountian(out of Los) and strike targets 30kms away. Now that’s something.

Spike NLOS validated for AH-64 after 17.3nm target hit

The US Army has validated the Rafael Spike non-line-of-sight (NLOS) missile as an interim long-range weapon for its Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

www.flightglobal.com

Army Is Quadrupling Attack Range of Apache Helicopters with Israeli Spike Missiles

The Army’s move to integrate a mature and capable off-the-shelf weapon onto its Apaches seems like an all-around win for keeping the Army’s Apache helicopter fleet tactically and financially viable in the coming decades.

nationalinterest.org

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Army wants merican heavy machinery, I don’t blame ‘em. At this point, they just want something that dominates the battlefield. Strykers are good at what they do. Tech wise, miles ahead of Russian stuff. They form a vital component in networked ground operations for us army. Every striker in a given theater is networked, knows which target each Stryker is engaging( can even see the targets via video of every other Stryker), knows position of all ground units, artillery positions, acts as a C&C on the ground for conventional and nuclear roles. Apparently can even control drones if needed. Can relay air support for out of sight targets. Very very good tech. It has its advantages and disadvantages.

If army just goes for Stryker and abandons WHAP, thats not good as well. Going for WHAP would pave the way for more wheeled platforms. Maybe a combination? Don’t know.

like I said, it’s all up in the air right now.

Where you really should be worried about them dropping the ball is in the acquisition of LUH. WHAP is nowhere close to being ready for induction, but LUH is very much up there. Failure to induct LUH is more of a blasphemy for indian indiginisation compared to anything else.

Pardon me but this is balderdash. All that networking tech is useless if the platform can't do its job: crossing the multitude of rivers and canals that the Pakis have arrayed against us as a defence. WhAP is meant for Recce and Support Battalions, all the more reason that they need to be very mobile on the field. Given the limited number of Recce and Support Battalions in the Army, added to it the fact that WhAP is just one of the vehicles planned for an R&S Battalion (others being NAMICA and 4-wheelers), it becomes rather apparent that only very few WhAPs are required. They are not going to be used nearly as widely as they are used in the US Army or the PLA Ground Forces. Nor is there much overlap in the roles IA envisages for WhAP vis-a-vis what US Army envisages for Stryker.
As for the network-centric stuff, its nothing that can't be put in WhAP. Maybe its already there.
What is happening to LUH maybe a sabotage attempt, but I'll reserve my judgement on that for now. Its a wait and watch situation.
Yes the Army could still be corrupt enough to choose Stryker over WhAP, but the chances of that actually happening seem to be pretty low given the points in my previous post regarding WhAP being in Negative import list, which in turn, is one of Rajnath's flagship schemes.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Pardon me but this is balderdash. All that networking tech is useless if the platform can't do its job: crossing the multitude of rivers and canals that the Pakis have arrayed against us as a defence. WhAP is meant for Recce and Support Battalions, all the more reason that they need to be very mobile on the field. Given the limited number of Recce and Support Battalions in the Army, added to it the fact that WhAP is just one of the vehicles planned for an R&S Battalion (others being NAMICA and 4-wheelers), it becomes rather apparent that only very few WhAPs are required. They are not going to be used nearly as widely as they are used in the US Army or the PLA Ground Forces. Nor is there much overlap in the roles IA envisages for WhAP vis-a-vis what US Army envisages for Stryker.
As for the network-centric stuff, its nothing that can't be put in WhAP. Maybe its already there.
What is happening to LUH maybe a sabotage attempt, but I'll reserve my judgement on that for now. Its a wait and watch situation.
Yes the Army could still be corrupt enough to choose Stryker over WhAP, but the chances of that actually happening seem to be pretty low given the points in my previous post regarding WhAP being in Negative import list, which in turn, is one of Rajnath's flagship schemes.

This is not balderdash. This is questionable info obtained from well placed sources-Which has been stated before and so take it with a pinch of salt. whether you like it or not, army is very interested in Stryker. I’m just passing on this info.
As per network centric stuff, it takes years and years for that kind of maturity in a land based system. It’s akin to saying why not put apache tech capabilities on lch.
Would be good to accept the fact that Negative import list is not a constitutional mandate and can be changed whenever.
peace.

 

[fire starter]

This is not balderdash. This is questionable info obtained from well placed sources-Which has been stated before and so take it with a pinch of salt. whether you like it or not, army is very interested in Stryker. I’m just passing on this info.
Would be good to accept the fact that Negative import list is not a constitutional mandate and can be changed whenever.
peace.

Kuch bhi stryker isn't even fulfilling the army requirements . Since whap is already in black list so i suppose it will be ordered.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Kuch bhi stryker isn't even fulfilling the army requirements . Since whap is already in black list so i suppose it will be ordered.

Sure thing(suppose) boss.

 

[Lonewolf]

Kuch bhi stryker isn't even fulfilling the army requirements . Since whap is already in black list so i suppose it will be ordered.

What's issue with whap ,and why this discussion on air force thread , @Indx TechStyle please help here

 

[sorcerer]

From 83 Tejas to 56 C-295 Airbus, here’s how air arsenal is being bolstered by IAF

From 83 Tejas to 56 C-295 Airbus, here’s how air arsenal is being bolstered by IAF

With countries around the globe ramping up the air defence ecosystem in order to get strategic advances over their enemy, the Indian Air Force (IAF) recent defence details are the same shot towards making India foolproof. 83 Tejas fighter jets In a whopping ₹48,000 crore deal with state-run...

www.apnnews.com

 

[Tactical Doge]

Spoiler

 

[charlie]

Army wants merican heavy machinery, I don’t blame ‘em. At this point, they just want something that dominates the battlefield. Strykers are good at what they do. Tech wise, miles ahead of Russian stuff. They form a vital component in networked ground operations for us army. Every striker in a given theater is networked, knows which target each Stryker is engaging( can even see the targets via video of every other Stryker), knows position of all ground units, artillery positions, acts as a C&C on the ground for conventional and nuclear roles. Apparently can even control drones if needed. Can relay air support for out of sight targets. Very very good tech. It has its advantages and disadvantages.

If army just goes for Stryker and abandons WHAP, thats not good as well. Going for WHAP would pave the way for more wheeled platforms. Maybe a combination? Don’t know.

like I said, it’s all up in the air right now.

Where you really should be worried about them dropping the ball is in the acquisition of LUH. WHAP is nowhere close to being ready for induction, but LUH is very much up there. Failure to induct LUH is more of a blasphemy for indian indiginisation compared to anything else.

I think you are talking about win-t increment 2 but you actually need a structure like cs 13 to get the true battlefield SA which you think army will get by just buying striker with Raytheon exf1915( I thought it would be falcons and GD now prefers falcons) but it’s not going to do it.

as usual Indian army does do jugad by buying bits and pieces but it’s not going to give capability like US has.

in case you wondering cs 13

Search

www.afcea.org

I was talking to Indian army signals guy the way he was explaining me how they communicate between different agency like with BSF or brigade level ( I don’t remember much of the conversation now ) was something I could not even understand it is very messy and very inefficient.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

I think you are talking about win-t increment 2 but you actually need a structure like cs 13 to get the true battlefield SA which you think army will get by just buying striker with Raytheon exf1915( I thought it would be falcons and GD now prefers falcons) but it’s not going to do it.

as usual Indian army does do jugad by buying bits and pieces but it’s not going to give capability like US has.

in case you wondering cs 13

Search

www.afcea.org

I was talking to Indian army signals guy the way he was explaining me how they communicate between different agency like with BSF or brigade level ( I don’t remember much of the conversation now ) was something I could not even understand it is very messy and very inefficient.

India is not going to use CS13 or CS21, but has its own network centric infra that is being built. Stryker platforms if purchased by India use upcoming Indian networked systems for their communications I think

With respect to Stryker to Stryker comms, it even uses a Wi-Fi bubble which is the worst for range, agreed, but apparently it exists. All other comms are through radio data links, which I’m sure will be programmed differently for different customers.

CS13 is a thing of the past and is well beyond obsolete. CS21 for us army involves pretty much augmented reality style tech, with battlefieldsoldiers dropping virtual pins for enemy positions on hand held SDR’s that relay them into the tactical network.This also doubles down into their augmented reality headsets that marines and rangers are being issued from Microsoft, which relays info into ground tactical network.
BTW this entire network is an encrypted radio based network, and w.r.to a strykers compatibility, all it needs is a an encoder/decoder plug. It’s up to India, which comm systems they’re going to use.

Theres a new Stryker system called a cross-domain solution box, which acts as a data fusion center for all these various signals and provides a common tactical picture for ‘all’ ground units. Pretty similar to an F35.

In summary, purchasing a few strykers will giveindia some level of SA purely from a mechanized infantry theater if it chooses to operate the same CS21 that us army oprates(which can be done now that COMCASA has been signed), and so you have just strykers talking to each other. Or if it chooses to integrate all of its other ground United, it will have to wait for the integrated ground network system to be developed after which it’s plugged into strykers, MBT’s etc. So yes, just purchasing strykers will give IA some level of SA, which I’m sure they’ve never experienced before(not even close).

 

[Sridhar_TN]

apart from being considered blasphemous, it’s prudent for the IA and IAF to jointly develop integrated battle space technologies with US army and USAF. If that makes any sense.

the Americans are really good at it, andthe Indian defense establishment could learn a thing or two,for developing robust/clean/clutterless network systms, which admittedly India is not strong at.
(Just looking at homepage websites of BEL, DRDO or even IRCTC, you just feel like puking. Not comparing that with network development, but it gives you an idea of the kind of people developing such systems).

DTTI and other initiatives are useless at this point, and India could focus more on jointly developing network centric capabilities, cyber and AI with the US, as it has more value than a dedicated weapons platform as of now.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

no wonder IA and iAf wanted spike systems for lch. This gives the airborne system with spike nlos(a new weapon) the ability to hide behind a mountian(out of Los) and strike targets 30kms away. Now that’s something.

Spike NLOS validated for AH-64 after 17.3nm target hit

The US Army has validated the Rafael Spike non-line-of-sight (NLOS) missile as an interim long-range weapon for its Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

www.flightglobal.com

Army Is Quadrupling Attack Range of Apache Helicopters with Israeli Spike Missiles

The Army’s move to integrate a mature and capable off-the-shelf weapon onto its Apaches seems like an all-around win for keeping the Army’s Apache helicopter fleet tactically and financially viable in the coming decades.

nationalinterest.org

Not sure why many people aren’t talking about this. This is a stupendous development.

Integrating NLOS into LCH would breathe new life into the platform. Sit behind a mountain and launch spikes at targets and guide them with video on top down mode up to 30 Kim’s away. Could have won kargil if this was integrate to mi26 single-handedly lol.

 

[HawkisRight]

 

[charlie]

India is not going to use CS13 or CS21, but has its own network centric infra that is being built. Stryker platforms if purchased by India use upcoming Indian networked systems for their communications I think

With respect to Stryker to Stryker comms, it even uses a Wi-Fi bubble which is the worst for range, agreed, but apparently it exists. All other comms are through radio data links, which I’m sure will be programmed differently for different customers.

CS13 is a thing of the past and is well beyond obsolete. CS21 for us army involves pretty much augmented reality style tech, with battlefieldsoldiers dropping virtual pins for enemy positions on hand held SDR’s that relay them into the tactical network.This also doubles down into their augmented reality headsets that marines and rangers are being issued from Microsoft, which relays info into ground tactical network.
BTW this entire network is an encrypted radio based network, and w.r.to a strykers compatibility, all it needs is a an encoder/decoder plug. It’s up to India, which comm systems they’re going to use.

Theres a new Stryker system called a cross-domain solution box, which acts as a data fusion center for all these various signals and provides a common tactical picture for ‘all’ ground units. Pretty similar to an F35.

In summary, purchasing a few strykers will giveindia some level of SA purely from a mechanized infantry theater if it chooses to operate the same CS21 that us army oprates(which can be done now that COMCASA has been signed), and so you have just strykers talking to each other. Or if it chooses to integrate all of its other ground United, it will have to wait for the integrated ground network system to be developed after which it’s plugged into strykers, MBT’s etc. So yes, just purchasing strykers will give IA some level of SA, which I’m sure they’ve never experienced before(not even close).

CS is not a network infra, it’s just a 2 year structure or a road map, a similar structure is needed in India for integrated battle groups, and even with the comms supporting different waveforms US needed something like CS as there were many issues showing up when things were getting commissioned.

indian Army doesn’t use the same waveforms used by US, striker will be able to communicate with Apache If airforce didn’t f#ck up on ordering the correct waveforms.

US comms are very expensive compared to BEL comms and pretty sure 90% of the waveforms falcon 3 or Raytheon 1915 does not support what BEL comms support. I am not sure what BEL waveforms are supported on bel comms, probably vhf/uhf. And good luck making encryption work on those.

encryption itself is big topic on radios and can cost you millions of dollar depending on what kind of encryption and encryption features you are buying for a size of integrated battle group

I think it was 2016 I saw a Harris released a tablet connected that can be connected to a rifleman radios For marking enemy position.

GD integrated these comms into the vehicle and performs a lot of test. there are quite of lot of systems talking to the comms. you can’t just take a Raytheon comms out and put a falcon 3 in. So it’s not easy when you say India will decide what comms they want. I never heard of any kind of encoder/decoder plug as that would be a security issue.


This topic is so huge that it’s hard to discuss, and there are so many issues just to make voice and data work.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Not sure why many people aren’t talking about this. This is a stupendous development.

Integrating NLOS into LCH would breathe new life into the platform. Sit behind a mountain and launch spikes at targets and guide them with video on top down mode up to 30 Kim’s away. Could have won kargil if this was integrate to mi26 single-handedly lol.

Bruh. Mi-26 with ATGM?
As for using ATGMs while hiding behind a terrain feature its not unique to Spike NLOS, is it? Hellfire and SANT can do it too. That is what LOAL is for, isn't it? Yeah NLOS has more range and an EO/TV sensor allowing operator to control it like a drone, but if that is the tactical requirement, then Air Force/Army can simply ask DRDO to deliver that as well. Heck, we need a CATS drone family for Attack Helicopters. That along with an indigenous NLOS-ATGM will be very useful in the North.

US comms are very expensive compared to BEL comms and pretty sure 90% of the waveforms falcon 3 or Raytheon 1915 does not support what BEL comms support. I am not sure what BEL waveforms are supported on bel comms, probably vhf/uhf. And good luck making encryption work on those.

encryption itself is big topic on radios and can cost you millions of dollar depending on what kind of encryption and encryption features you are buying for a size of integrated battle group

This topic is so huge that it’s hard to discuss, and there are so many issues just to make voice and data work.

Any good web or print resource where one can learn of these topics?

 

[Tactical Doge]

Indian Air force Chinooks to be used in ISRO Gaganyaan Test phase

 

[charlie]

CS is not a network infra, it’s just a 2 year structure or a road map, a similar structure is needed in India for integrated battle groups, and even with the comms supporting different waveforms US needed something like CS as there were many issues showing up when things were getting commissioned.

indian Army doesn’t use the same waveforms used by US, striker will be able to communicate with Apache If airforce didn’t f#ck up on ordering the correct waveforms.

US comms are very expensive compared to BEL comms and pretty sure 90% of the waveforms falcon 3 or Raytheon 1915 does not support what BEL comms support. I am not sure what BEL waveforms are supported on bel comms, probably vhf/uhf. And good luck making encryption work on those.

encryption itself is big topic on radios and can cost you millions of dollar depending on what kind of encryption and encryption features you are buying for a size of integrated battle group

I think it was 2016 I saw a Harris released a tablet connected that can be connected to a rifleman radios For marking enemy position.

GD integrated these comms into the vehicle and performs a lot of test. there are quite of lot of systems talking to the comms. you can’t just take a Raytheon comms out and put a falcon 3 in. So it’s not easy when you say India will decide what comms they want. I never heard of any kind of encoder/decoder plug as that would be a security issue.


This topic is so huge that it’s hard to discuss, and there are so many issues just to make voice and data work.

i work with certain waveforms not all of them so even I am not good with all of them and most of the info is classified and not available on the internet but I can post generalized info of waveforms

Modernizing Tactical Waveforms for a More Contested Battlespace - Modern Battlespace

One critical element of military comms is tactical waveforms & their ability to reliably & securely transmit communications to & from the warfighter in-theater.

modernbattlespace.com

Commercial waveforms provide flexibility for the Army’s Manpack radios

ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND, Md. (August 12, 2020) - Just like conducting a dress rehearsal for an upcoming show, technical developmental test events aid A...

www.army.mil

now a days the new riflemen radios are coming with something called two channel capabilities which is very cool.

you can see different waveform being used when there is a jamming environment

I posted this video many times here gives you an idea of how battfield SA looks like now


and every individual waveform is a big subject and inside those there will many features and encryption

harris is trying to work with India on manufacturing if things work out. note that Harris never manufacture anything outside US unlike other competitors.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Bruh. Mi-26 with ATGM?
As for using ATGMs while hiding behind a terrain feature its not unique to Spike NLOS, is it? Hellfire and SANT can do it too. That is what LOAL is for, isn't it? Yeah NLOS has more range and an EO/TV sensor allowing operator to control it like a drone, but if that is the tactical requirement, then Air Force/Army can simply ask DRDO to deliver that as well. Heck, we need a CATS drone family for Attack Helicopters. That along with an indigenous NLOS-ATGM will be very useful in the North.


Any good web or print resource where one can learn of these topics?

Integrating on Mi-26 was sarcastic. But it still can be done.
And no. Are you joking?
NLOS is nothing like SANT, not even remotely close to hellfire. Please read on the targeting more for both. They’re pure LOS.
Both those missiles above need a direct line of sight with laser designation with I think Km’s range(not sure). Introduce crappy weather, and you can go back home.

NLOS is an I/R video controlled loop that can be fired like I said, literally sitting behind a mountain, and guiding it 30kms away. It has a manual and automatic mode. Perfect for mountain warfare. Which is why US army isrushing to validate this system for their apaches. Israelis have been using it for ages.

Like I said, not sure why the experienced folks in this forum are not picking up on this topic. LCH would work wonders if it integrates this system. It is extremely costly as well with almost $ 200k a missile.
But it’s worked wonders for Koreans and Israelis and even the British.

This article gives you an idea of potential tactics for this system.

Can an Israeli missile give US Army aviation an advantage in future warfare?

A Spike NLOS missile was fired from an Apache attack helicopter at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona, as part of an experiment that will help the Army shape a requirement for a long-range precision munition for its aircraft that can penetrate enemy territory.

www.defensenews.com

LCH can be integrated to operate both the SANT and NLOS. Which is what the Apache-is doing ( both NLOS and hellfire)

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Integrating on Mi-26 was sarcastic. But it still can be done.
And no. Are you joking?
NLOS is nothing like SANT, not even remotely close to hellfire. Please read on the targeting more for both. They’re pure LOS.
Both those missiles above need a direct line of sight with laser designation with I think Km’s range(not sure). Introduce crappy weather, and you can go back home.

NLOS is an I/R video controlled loop that can be fired like I said, literally sitting behind a mountain, and guiding it 30kms away. It has a manual and automatic mode. Perfect for mountain warfare. Which is why US army isrushing to validate this system for their apaches. Israelis have been using it for ages.

Like I said, not sure why the experienced folks in this forum are not picking up on this topic. LCH would work wonders if it integrates this system. It is extremely costly as well with almost $ 200k a missile.
But it’s worked wonders for Koreans and Israelis and even the British.

This article gives you an idea of potential tactics for this system.

Can an Israeli missile give US Army aviation an advantage in future warfare?

A Spike NLOS missile was fired from an Apache attack helicopter at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona, as part of an experiment that will help the Army shape a requirement for a long-range precision munition for its aircraft that can penetrate enemy territory.

www.defensenews.com

LCH can be integrated to operate both the SANT and NLOS. Which is what the Apache-is doing ( both NLOS and hellfire)

Dude, Hellfire can be fired from behind a Mountain as well. It has three different LOAL modes, two of those allow the entire helicopter to hide behind the terrain feature and fire over the feature. Yes it needs a ground team or drone on the other side for lasing the target but so does NLOS. I mean, sure, NLOS can be controlled much like a your average TV guided missile, but what told you in real-time that there was a target 30 km at that location? Likely a drone or Infantry, right? So either way, you needed somebody at the target end for ID'ing the target, if not lasing it.
.
Anyways, we should build a desi NLOS ATGM. Purchase Spike NLOS as a stopgap till then, just like we purchased Spike MR till DRDO MPATGM comes online. Problem is, Army and Airforce don't seem interested in this capability for the next decade at least. Or else they would have mentioned it in the TPCR document.