Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[vampyrbladez]

Gripen E is not even flying. How can it be bought at all? SAAB doesn't even have its own radar, engine, avionics and FBW codes. It is ruled out.

F16 can be bought. Even if it is replaced by F35, it is irrelevant. We want our strategic needs met. Whether other countries replace it has nothing to do. But the condition of technology transfer is the problem. USA doesn't allow Technology transfer.

Only Paki ******s want F 16. Rest of the world is moving towards F 35 and FGFA. Thus till the time FGFA matures, we buy Rafale which is the only 4++ generation aircraft that can survive a S300/400 class AD system.

There are other options like MiG35, Su35 etc which can be made in India by Russian cooperation. Russia has given is Su30 and may give MiG35 or Su35 too.

MiG 35 like F 16 is outclassed by today's standards. To make up raw numbers MiG 29 UPG is sufficient. Su 30MKI can be upgraded to Su 35 using only a radar and engine upgrade.

Why should India buy Rafale at all if there is no 100% indigenisation? It will be another imported junk. Foreign planes are for foreign country to fight. So, simply buying Rafale without France guaranteeing Technology transfer will be foolish.

DRAL has been able to manufacture components of Falcon 2000 jets and in 3 years (2022) entire aircraft will be made on a different production line. Once greater numbers have been ordered (114), we can ramp up production in India using the DRAL site with experienced technicians minus the PSU burden of HAL and it's unions.

https://www.businesstoday.in/curren...-from-nagpur-in-three-years/story/318140.html

F 16 also will give no ToT and just off the shelf solutions.

Rafale is only good to have, not a must to have. We can order Su30 in 114 number instead of Rafale and simply get rid of Rafale altogether.

Rafale has supercruise, very low RCS, AESA radar, supermaneuverability and SPECTRA EW suite which together outclass all aircraft till 5th generation. It's necessary to counter J 20.

http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg

As of now, India has enough money and forex and hence considers it safe bet to get an additional plane design without spending much time by simply buying if France is willing to sell. But we don't knw if France is is willing to sell or will backstab after getting the Money

Going to your point on US ToT issues, France is safer as India recently has been awarded NATO ally status by US Senate. If we wanted F 35 we could also get it now that Turkey's future in the F 35 program may be in danger.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...lly-status-for-india/articleshow/70044908.cms

 

[Vijyes]

DRAL has been able to manufacture components of Falcon 2000 jets and in 3 years (2022) entire aircraft will be made on a different production line. Once greater numbers have been ordered (114), we can ramp up production in India using the DRAL site with experienced technicians minus the PSU burden of HAL and it's unions.

We can't assume that France will give Technology. Manufacturing planes as in manufacturing body is not enough. We need the plane to be fully indigenised. The point is about Technology,not assembly

Rafale has supercruise, very low RCS, AESA radar, supermaneuverability and SPECTRA EW suite which together outclass all aircraft till 5th generation. It's necessary to counter J 20.

All these are useless without indigenisation. Our Su30 performs better than Rafale in everything except RCS. But the powerful radar of Su30 makes up the deficit.

Going to your point on US ToT issues, France is safer as India recently has been awarded NATO ally status by US Senate. If we wanted F 35 we could also get it now that Turkey's future in the F 35 program may be in danger.

NATO ally status is useless. Unless USA gives Technology to India, everything is just a sham. Turkey is NATO ally itself but gets nothing from USA. Why do you assume that NATO ally status will matter?

Also, who told you that Turkey was important in F35? Turkey's contribution was minimal and hence replacing it by India will be foolish. We don't need anything without full Technology for indigenisation. F35 or F22, as long as made by foreign countries and not indigenised by India, are just junk for Indian use

 

[Indx TechStyle]

In the end, unlike US, Russia & China, France at first place is a second tier power, over that a declining one. As France won't be able to produce that much in future, there is no reason to believe that it won't give tech if paid with adequate money. There's no reason to keep them classified against short term interests.

France has given substantial assistance in Indian rocket engines, helicopter, submarine and design of fighter aircrafts.

Much much more than screwdriver and mouthjobs from US & Russia.

 

[Enquirer]

This is interesting!
This guy's saying that Mirage 2000 upgrade includes addition of AESA radar! I thought the upgrade was to the non-AESA RDY-2 radar.
Is this guy blowing smoke on the spur of the moment?

 

[Vijyes]

France has given substantial assistance in Indian rocket engines, helicopter, submarine and design of fighter aircrafts

. Yeah, so much that we still import engine for Helicopter, use french rockets. Even submarine design of Arihant predates French scorpene

 

[Indrajit]

. Yeah, so much that we still import engine for Helicopter, use french rockets. Even submarine design of Arihant predates French scorpene

Too many chasing this chimera.....the French will never give you anything that causes them to lose the goose laying golden eggs. No one will.

 

[vampyrbladez]

We can't assume that France will give Technology. Manufacturing planes as in manufacturing body is not enough. We need the plane to be fully indigenised. The point is about Technology,not assembly

Nobody gets full ToT even F 35 partners get pieces of the program. That's why Tejas program is so important. However DRAL will be leagues ahead of HAL simply for the fact it is not a PSU.

All these are useless without indigenisation. Our Su30 performs better than Rafale in everything except RCS. But the powerful radar of Su30 makes up the deficit.

Su 30 Mki has somewhere between 5 - 10 msq RCS. It cannot supercruise and has nowhere near the level of SPECTRA EW system. Radar of Su 30 MKI is hybrid PESA not AESA like RBE2 AA.

NATO ally status is useless. Unless USA gives Technology to India, everything is just a sham. Turkey is NATO ally itself but gets nothing from USA. Why do you assume that NATO ally status will matter?

Turkey is the reason Paki ******s were able to get second hand F 16 and spare parts so easily. Having direct access to the F 35 program while developing your MiC into a formidable force is an added bonus. NATO status means that all doors are open. No more 1990s level fuckery. 5 star VVIP treatment in all acquisition deals.

Also, who told you that Turkey was important in F35? Turkey's contribution was minimal and hence replacing it by India will be foolish. We don't need anything without full Technology for indigenisation. F35 or F22, as long as made by foreign countries and not indigenised by India, are just junk for Indian use

F 35 a plane which has borderline parity with S300/400 SAM is junk! Lockheed wale halwa nahi bech rahe hain!

 

[Vijyes]

Nobody gets full ToT even F 35 partners get pieces of the program. That's why Tejas program is so important. However DRAL will be leagues ahead of HAL simply for the fact it is not a PSU.

This is not some Bollywood movie. HAL doesn't become junk just because it is PSU. What world do you live in?

Su 30 Mki has somewhere between 5 - 10 msq RCS. It cannot supercruise and has nowhere near the level of SPECTRA EW system. Radar of Su 30 MKI is hybrid PESA not AESA like RBE2 AA.

Rafale also can't supercruise when having full tank and decent payload. Same with Su30. Also, RCS of Su30 is 3-4 m2 whereas Rafale has 1 m2. Also, hybrid PESA is extremely good quality. No need to deride it merely because it isn't AESA. Also, India can now replace it with AESA as India has readied the AESA Technology.

Spectra is not Rafale. It is a pod. It is not useful against AESA. Also, pods can be added to any plane. I am only talking of Rafale plane without extra fitting.

Turkey is the reason Paki ******s were able to get second hand F 16 and spare parts so easily. Having direct access to the F 35 program while developing your MiC into a formidable force is an added bonus. NATO status means that all doors are open. No more 1990s level fuckery. 5 star VVIP treatment in all acquisition deals

What is access to F35 program? Making some low end body parts like tail, fin, fuselage etc?

Also, Pakistan git F16 from USA, not Turkey. Turkey doesn't make engines and other main parts of F16 which is the ones that are maintenance heavy. So, having access to small bits and pieces are irrelevant.

Again, talked like a retard. 1990 fuckery? Do you even know what that means? NATO status means nothing. All deals are based on case to case basis. It is not that India can gain access to all items of USA just because of NATO status. Just like Turkey didn't get anything from USA despite NATO status, India too wouldn't get anything. Erdogan was shouting that USA sanctioned EO system for drones to be sold to Turkey in 2008-13 and hence Turkey had to develop it on its own.

F 35 a plane which has borderline parity with S300/400 SAM is junk! Lockheed wale halwa nahi bech rahe hain

F35 is junk to India if it doesn't have indigenous manufacturing. Imported weapons are all junks during war. Also, F35 can never overtake SAM systems

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is not some Bollywood movie. HAL doesn't become junk just because it is PSU. What world do you live in?

This is HAL's work culture.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...d-after-mirage-crash/articleshow/67806664.cms

Rafale also can't supercruise when having full tank and decent payload. Same with Su30. Also, RCS of Su30 is 3-4 m2 whereas Rafale has 1 m2. Also, hybrid PESA is extremely good quality. No need to deride it merely because it isn't AESA. Also, India can now replace it with AESA as India has readied the AESA Technology.

Spectra is not Rafale. It is a pod. It is not useful against AESA. Also, pods can be added to any plane. I am only talking of Rafale plane without extra fitting.

Rafale RCS

Stealth

Stealth can be divided into several areas: visual, radar and IR. Visual stealth refers to how easy is to to see the aircraft with Mk.I eyeball. Radar stealth can refer to two things: aircraft’s radar cross section (RCS), and aircraft’s radar emissions (EMCON). IR stealth refers to aircraft’s IR signature.

In terms of visual signature, Dassault Rafale is 15,3 m long, 5,34 m high with 10,8 m wing span. Typhoon is 15,96 m long, 5,28 m high with 10,95 m wing span. Overall Typhoon has slightly larger visual signature from top and side, while frontal signature should be similar.

When it comes to radar signature, whichever jet uses radar is going to be detected well beyond its own radar range and become a target. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km, while Typhoon’s DASS achieves same precision at “more than” 100 km, and can be used to cue radar or IRST. Rafale will have RCS of 0,75-1,10 m2 with 6 missiles. Captor-M has range of 185 km vs 3 m2 target, while CAPTOR E has range of 216 km vs 3 m2 target. Thus Typhoon will detect Rafale at 131-144 km with CAPTOR-M or 153-168 km with CAPTOR-E. Engagement range will be 105-115 km with CAPTOR-M or 122-135 km with CAPTOR-E. However, since SPECTRA can reduce RCS by factor of 1,5 to 3, Rafale’s RCS is 0,25-0,75 m2. Consequently, Typhoon will detect Rafale at 99-131 km with CAPTOR-M or 116-153 km with CAPTOR-E; engagement range is 79-105 km with CAPTOR-M and 92-122 km with CAPTOR-E. Typhoon will have RCS of 0,9-1,2 m2 with 6 missiles. RBE-2 has range of 139 km vs 5 m2 target. RBE-2AA has range of 208 km vs 5 m2 target, or 278 km when coupled with SPECTRA. Consequently, Rafale will detect Typhoon at 90-97 km with RBE-2, or 135-195 km with RBE-2AA. Engagement ranges will be 72-78 km with RBE-2 or 108-156 km with RBE-2AA. Rafale’s OSF has range of 80 km vs subsonic head-on target at 20.000 ft. At 30.000 ft, range may be 80-90 km, which means that Rafale will be able to attack Typhoon from 60-70 km. Typhoon’s PIRATE has 90 km range vs subsonic head-on target at unknown altitude, giving it 60-70 km engagement range. That being said, ability of both to attack the opponent will be limited by missile effective range (15-100 km for Meteor, 9-36 km for AIM-120D, 4-16 km for MICA).

https://defenseissues.net/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/

SPECTRA EW

What is access to F35 program? Making some low end body parts like tail, fin, fuselage etc?

Also, Pakistan git F16 from USA, not Turkey. Turkey doesn't make engines and other main parts of F16 which is the ones that are maintenance heavy. So, having access to small bits and pieces are irrelevant.

Again, talked like a retard. 1990 fuckery? Do you even know what that means? NATO status means nothing. All deals are based on case to case basis. It is not that India can gain access to all items of USA just because of NATO status. Just like Turkey didn't get anything from USA despite NATO status, India too wouldn't get anything. Erdogan was shouting that USA sanctioned EO system for drones to be sold to Turkey in 2008-13 and hence Turkey had to develop it on its own.

F 16s from Turkey to Paki ******s.

https://www.defenceiq.com/air-force...y-completes-f-16-modernisation-contract-for-p

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-one-nation-destroyed-their-own-air-force-44672

US tech transfer agreement.

The US recognised India as a “Major Defence Partner” in 2016, a designation that allows India to buy more advanced and sensitive technologies from America at par with that of the US’ closest allies and partners.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/us-senate-legislation-india-nato-ally-like-status-5811001/

F35 is junk to India if it doesn't have indigenous manufacturing. Imported weapons are all junks during war. Also, F35 can never overtake SAM systems

Your argument can be summed up below.

Spoiler

 

[Steven Rogers]

Rafale also can't supercruise when having full tank and decent payload. Same with Su30. Also, RCS of Su30 is 3-4 m2 whereas Rafale has 1 m2. Also, hybrid PESA is extremely good quality. No need to deride it merely because it isn't AESA. Also, India can now replace it with AESA as India has readied the AESA Technology.

Spectra is not Rafale. It is a pod. It is not useful against AESA. Also, pods can be added to any plane. I am only talking of Rafale plane without extra fitting.

Rafale can supercruise with full fuel one 1250lt drop tank and 4 a2a mica missiles,Rafale M can do the same with 6 a2a missiles.
Dont go gag on that hybrid word ,at best its noise level is equivalent to first gen aesa but it gen behind in other areas,it uses the same twt to generate the wave . Indian aesa technology on fighter aircraft wont come anytime soon. Spectra and Radar cost 30 percent of the whole complete cost, it not a pod its sensors are spread all over the rafale body,these can be done on su30mki also but with major redesign.

 

[arya]

Well Rafale is good no doubt but can he can stand against su35 , & J20 that the question & Pakistan also upgrading his J17 .

 

[vampyrbladez]

Well Rafale is good no doubt but can he can stand against su35 , & J20 that the question & Pakistan also upgrading his J17 .

t.brainlet...............................................................

C'mon bro, atleast put some realistic comparisons.

 

[Vijyes]

t.brainlet...............................................................

C'mon bro, atleast put some realistic comparisons.

She is a woman, not a BRO......

 

[vampyrbladez]

She is a woman, not a BRO......

Thats 12arya not this chap......................................

 

[Indx TechStyle]

. Yeah, so much that we still import engine for Helicopter, use french rockets. Even submarine design of Arihant predates French scorpene

We use high end ones, from heavy rockets to advanced engines.
In case of your master rusks, we need to send it for repair.

 

[Vijyes]

We use high end ones, from heavy rockets to advanced engines.
In case of your master rusks, we need to send it for repair.

Yeah, we use,not make high end engine for Helicopter despite having been in JV foe 2 decades. No Technology was learnt in the 2 decades of this JV.

Russia has given us full Technology for Su30 and India us now self sufficient in making it. Who told you that SU30 is sent to Russia for repairs? Only submarines like Kilo class and other items which did not have Technology transfer or JV, are sent to Russia for repairs.

But since you are a liberal Abrahamist, you are always expected to support your western masters regardless of facts

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Yeah, we use,not make high end engine for Helicopter despite having been in JV foe 2 decades. No Technology was learnt in the 2 decades of this JV.

We do for low end, for what we got.

So is with our space tech.

Russia has given us full Technology for Su30 and India us now self sufficient in making it.

India makes assemblies and sub-assemblies from kits.

If otherwise is true, India wouldn't have been facing problems in producing decent fighter planes now.

But since you are a liberal Abrahamist

Liberal, abrahamic by a mile.

you are always expected to support your western masters regardless of facts

No, its you who keeps on sucking your commie masters and even give conspiracy theories and call poverty "good" for supporting them.

As for me, I'm not pro American or pro western. France is a far useful country to harvest for technology because of its experience with tech and declining power.

 

[Vijyes]

India makes assemblies and sub-assemblies from kits.

If otherwise is true, India wouldn't have been facing problems in producing decent fighter planes now.

India got kits for Su30 in initial stages. The Technology transfer was step by step and as of now, India makes Su30 fully. I am not time travelling and talking if 10 years back situation. I am talking if situation right now.

India already makes Tejas except for engine. Engine for Su30 is older generation and hence its Technology can't be used to make modern engine. Why talk nonsense like this?

 

[arya]

Well if i am not wrong our air force sq strength is approx 30 & all mig 21 & his family already crossed his retired ages so that means so it will be approx 25 or 24 .

MMRCA2 & AMCA& MK2 are future induction plans .

Well as we all know AMCA will be ready before 2030 as and now is 2019 so forget it in current picture .

 

[sorcerer]

Two new Boeing Chinook helicopters arrive for IAF


"The arrival of the two Chinooks is in-line with the planned delivery schedule, as well as Boeing's commitment to ensuring the modernisation and mission readiness of the IAF," the company said in a statement.