India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

Vijyes

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Just throw a bone of USD 7-10 billion of non critical and non strategic orders to US corporations and they will themselves fight sanctions on India tooth and nail.

There's so much reliable and "no end user agreement" hardware that we can acquire from USA that won't only be reliable but top notch.
What bone? Do you think India has got extra money to throw around? What is the return India will get?

We don't want to waste money unnecessarily. It is not that money comes free. Buying non strategic items from USA when they are overpriced makes little sense

Not exactly... The intent for repeat order for P-8I comes to mind. P-8I are top notch... Chinese submarines are pretty naked these days, when they cross the Malacca straits... But, the US specifically wants India to buy their fighters... The fact that India whom the US tend to call an ally,, does not have a single frontline fighter from America. And this fact burns them no end..
P8I has BEL manufactured sensors as USA refused them due to non signing of COMCASA. All P8I as a result, has Indian sensors. P8I is just a modified boeing plane and nothing more.

India is not an ally of USA. These are only rhetorics without basis to appeal to the foolish crowd. Until USA gives technology transfer, USA can't be Indian ally. India will give evn $50 billion order for USA arms as long as USA gives critical technology like jet engine, GaN AESA, LM2500+ or any other high end technology. Unless USA offers technology, there can be no progress in relationship.

India will not buy any foreign fighters henceforth unless the fighters will be 100% indigenised after an order of 150-200 planes. USA refused to allow this and obviously, India refused to import. France agreed that buying 150 planes will make them give 100% indigenisation for Rafale and hence India purchased Rafales. Even here, Rafale will be Indian plane due to indigenisation and not remain an import.
 

AmoghaVarsha

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After trade war, Trump wants to punish India for Russian defence purchases America is planning sanctions on India

If this happens,India wont buy any US system for next couple of decades.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

Shashank Nayak

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P8I has BEL manufactured sensors as USA refused them due to non signing of COMCASA. All P8I as a result, has Indian sensors. P8I is just a modified boeing plane and nothing more
The non-signing of COMCASA (which India subsequently signed) resulted in the removal of secure American communication systems from P-8I. They were replaced by Indian systems. So, you mean to say that there are no American radars and other sensors on P-8I ? Why would India even buy such a flying tub..
 

Shashank Nayak

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the "burning" part is a sales pitch.

the fact that they are not able to sell is a flaw in their sales pitch.
are there any adversarial countries which have American fighter jets against each other?
They don't want to let go of pakistan, and yet they want sell us their fighters? how does that even logically work.

same argument can be applied to THAAD, will america sell THAAD be deployed against F-16?

we should be saying publicly that we don't mind buying American fighter jets, as long as our enemies don't have them.
Pakistan operates french mirages, and so does India. Indian S-400s would also be deployed against Chinese Su-35s. But, agree that the burn that the Americans feel is a sales pitch..
 

Vijyes

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The non-signing of COMCASA (which India subsequently signed) resulted in the removal of secure American communication systems from P-8I. They were replaced by Indian systems. So, you mean to say that there are no American radars and other sensors on P-8I ? Why would India even buy such a flying tub..
The P8 key features were hydrocarbon detector, magnetic anomaly detector, sonobuoy and harpoon. It doesn't have complicated AESA radar but simple SAR radar. Of these, technology like hydrocarbon detector and few other suites were denied by USA.

It does have some USA sensors. But none are of high end Technology.

USA didn't just deny communication system but also other critical system. India really doesn't need USA communication systems as India also has satellites and communication equipment of its own. COMCASA also gives access to other higher end technology. But, even with COMCASA signed, these high end technology still come with end user agreement that USA will be allowed to inspect it regularly and check it for any reverse engineering and misuse. It is still a problem to get any good Technology from USA due to their conditions
 

Immanuel

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Don't make big statements which you yourself can't explain. Just because USA supplies arms doesn't mean the relationship is valuable. 8f USA doesn't supply, it can be substituted with others. USA doesn't supply any critical arms that causes long term dependence.

Yes, India is buying USA arms to offset trade surplus. I don't see how that is going yo make relationship strong. India is spending time and money doing exercise with everyone. India exercises with Oman, with Singapore, with Indonesia, with China and so on. The intention is to be ready to have good coordination in case of joint effort needed and to gain best practices from each other.

We don't buy critical technology from USA. THE c130 & P8 can be substituted by modifying a civilian airliner.

Rest all are forced purchases without real needs. They are just meant to reduce trade surplus. Apache, for example has no use. LCH or Rudra could have done same job. Apache may be bigger but that can also be taken down just as easily as Rudra by MANPADS. M777 is just light weight but has 27km range. Dhanush could be used 14km farther from M777 die to 41km range. These items if USA stops selling, will not cause any major problem and can be easily substituted. Calling them strategic shows shallow thinking.

I don't see a single use of USA defence relationship. I understand the need for Russian or Israeli but USA is simply wasteful. Which technology is USA going to give India at all? Why does India need that relationship if there is nothing on offer.

IOR belongs to India. Why should USA, Australia or Japan have any say here? I don't see why India should not try to get rid of USA in IOR instead of joining hands?

LEMOA is just logistical cost saver and not something strategic. It doesn't give permission for countries to use bases in wartime. BECA, COMCASA is useless for India. They are only useful for USA. India gets no access to data from COMCASA whereas USA will get the data.

Again, bullshit. It was UPA that created problem, not Russia. Russia gave good support but UPA would not stockpile spares and instead order at last minute, causing logistical problem. Russia can't deliver goods in short notice. This is common sense everywhere. But the management is Indian duty.

USA doesn't offer anything meaningful yo be happy about. These shallow arguments don't cut it.
Only an uninformed nincompoop ****** makes useless statements like this without going into the context of why certain purchases were made. Military purchases aren't made to cater to trade balances but as assets needed to conduct a respectable war.

C-130J was ordered since IAF's fleet of IL-76s in early 2000s were increasingly unable to fly due to lack of spares and were being cannibalized. A400 wasn't ready and C-130J was the only option thus order was placed to fill a gap in IAF's ability move shit around. Specially the SF which would have had severe problems in their ability to deploy fast. 6 were ordered first another 6 added to help with mobility with the new Mountain corps coming up in Pangargh, WB.

C-17 was ordered to since IAF wanted an enhanced strategic lift ability i.e moving things like tanks, missile launchers, massive shit tons of gear to advanced landing grounds, again it was the only bird available. This need was felt to be critical since back then roads leading upto Arunachal and other Eastern areas were underdeveloped and work was going on a snail's pace (still is). IAF thus allowed for reactivation of many advanced landing grounds to cater to this ability. IAF/IA love this bird, heck they even wanted 6 more alas, only 1 was left.

P-8 was the victor of the LRMR contest. a lot of Indian kit was installed on it since COMCASA wasn't signed but since it's signed now, it will get a lot of US kit as well if needed. It's maritime radar with air search mode is unique was only customized for Indian initially. The IN from day 1 has loved this bird and they have always wanted more. 24 will be operated anyways but I know from internal documentation that need is set at 36. IN couldn't give two shits about your analogy. It is strategic asset as far as IN is concerned (because they have a shortage of subs, ships with (active towed array sonars, torpedos, critical to detect AIP subs in shallow waters) and they can hold of PLAN. Last I checked The Chinkis have a quantitative advantage over us which is a quality in itself.

M-777 was ordered since IA needed a light weight gun in 155mm category that could be easily transported to very high altitude areas via helos again to support the upcoming Mountain Corps. This need was felt for the Eastern Theater.

S-70 won the the tender for 123 helos for IN but that deal stalled (due to NH-90 bitching), so 24 MH-64R ( a cousin) is being purchased to quickly plug gaps due to Sea Kings showing their rust. It's almost certain another 100 will come since Tata already makes a chunk of fuselage and other things in India.

Chinooks were ordered since IAF needed heavy lift helos to move SF, troops, guns and kit etc plus to replace the old 6 Mi-26. But the newer Mi-26 was just to expensive to operate, a bigger juicier target and just old in comparison to the Chinook which had all the latest bells and whistles. 15 were ordered and 7 more will be ordered soon, that is a given

Apache was ordered because the Mi-35 was showing it's rust, Mi-28 Hunter and Apache were evaluated and Apaches were the victors. Now 22 + 6 on order, another 39 are a given. Since both IAF and IA squabbled over who would use them. IA will get their own. While it can be bolstered with the Rudra and LCH. LCH is a light attack helo while Apache is a proven workhorse heavy attack helo, it's the best in the business.

So ******s go about how these purchases are not strategic, well try mobilizing without C-17s and C-130s, let's see how long it would take for a deceive counter punch against any urgent need. During Dokhlam, a couple of C-17s in a few sorties moved over a battalion worth of troops in a matter of couple of hours. In less than 24 hours that re-enforcement was well over a brigade.

All these purchases also mostly happened when there was no pressure on India to offset trade surpluses.

IOR is for now still open game, to say it belongs to India now is an utterly stupid overstatement (nigga please). USN/USAF in Diego Gracia and a few other bases around IOR alone can muster more fire power than all IN combined. You want get rid of the US from IOR :rofl:Please my homies, someone please throw some sand on this nigga.

First let's buy some heavy torpedos, active towed array sonars, continue to add LR-SAM on principal naval ships and then talk about how we dominate the IOR. Brahmos, Vikky alone isn't enough to say, this is our backyard.

You seem to have no clue on all the issues faced with Russia on MKI, T-90 and others. Both sides are to blame here. Ever wonder why the PAKFA deal crumbled which isn't even India's fault? TOT offered for PAKFA was around 25% if I recall.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/5-point-explainer-india-united-states-sign-comcasa-1912387

Nigga you shouldn't be talking about things you don't understand.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/what-the-recently-concluded-us-india-comcasa-means/

COMCASA will give us direct access to Common Tactical picture For example, a US ship that would have picked up a Chinese submarine movement near the Malacca Strait would transfer information like its speed, location and direction to the Indian Navy in real time as well a live Video and Comms. We don't have such a level of agreement or real time intel or data sharing even with our closest ally Russia. COMCASA is also signed with no Indian obligation for US specific deals by the way and that is a fact. Realtime Intel sharing has already begun by the way.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/what-the-recently-concluded-us-india-comcasa-means/

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-information-from-us/articleshow/65710975.cms
 

ezsasa

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Pakistan operates french mirages, and so does India. Indian S-400s would also be deployed against Chinese Su-35s. But, agree that the burn that the Americans feel is a sales pitch..
Yup, this is the reason I specifically mentioned American equipment.

I wonder if there is an American law preventing them from doing that.
 

Vijyes

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C-130J was ordered since IAF's fleet of IL-76s in early 2000s were increasingly unable to fly due to lack of spares and were being cannibalized. A400 wasn't ready and C-130J was the only option thus order was placed to fill a gap in IAF's ability move shit around. Specially the SF which would have had severe problems in their ability to deploy fast. 6 were ordered first another 6 added to help with mobility with the new Mountain corps coming up in Pangargh, WB.
We will replace C130J with c295. C130 is just temporary stop gap measure. Glorifying it shows low IQ.

C-17 was ordered to since IAF wanted an enhanced strategic lift ability i.e moving things like tanks, missile launchers, massive shit tons of gear to advanced landing grounds, again it was the only bird available. This need was felt to be critical since back then roads leading upto Arunachal and other Eastern areas were underdeveloped and work was going on a snail's pace (still is). IAF thus allowed for reactivation of many advanced landing grounds to cater to this ability. IAF/IA love this bird, heck they even wanted 6 more alas, only 1 was left.
There aren't many C17 in India. Though it is good for heavy lifting, it's use is minimal due to low quantity. Very few countries have such big birds and hence it is unique. But war requires quantity and ability to best attrition. So, it's strategic use is minimal.

P-8 was the victor of the LRMR contest. a lot of Indian kit was installed on it since COMCASA wasn't signed but since it's signed now, it will get a lot of US kit as well if needed. It's maritime radar with air search mode is unique was only customized for Indian initially. The IN from day 1 has loved this bird and they have always wanted more. 24 will be operated anyways but I know from internal documentation that need is set at 36. IN couldn't give two shits about your analogy. It is strategic asset as far as IN is concerned (because they have a shortage of subs, ships with (active towed array sonars, torpedos, critical to detect AIP subs in shallow waters) and they can hold of PLAN. Last I checked The Chinkis have a quantitative advantage over us which is a quality in itself.
We are not getting COMCASA equipment as we will not accept US end user agreement and inspection. COMCASA didn't guarantee sale of these Technology but only enabled it subject to further condition.

M-777 was ordered since IA needed a light weight gun in 155mm category that could be easily transported to very high altitude areas via helos again to support the upcoming Mountain Corps. This need
S-70 won the the tender for 123 helos for IN but that deal stalled (due to NH-90 bitching), so 24 MH-64R ( a cousin) is being purchased to quickly plug gaps due to Sea Kings showing their rust. It's almost certain another 100 will come since Tata already makes a chunk of fuselage and other things in India.
India is making IMRH which will be ready by 2025. Why does India need Romeo chopper in larger numbers?

TATA manufacturing parts of the helicopter is not an excuse as the parts are simple ones and are only manufactured for the offset requirement. It doesn't have any strategic technology transfer. So, the plant can be used to make IMRH in the future and not limit to Romeo
Chinooks were ordered since IAF needed heavy lift helos to move SF, troops, guns and kit etc plus to replace the old 6 Mi-26. But the newer Mi-26 was just to expensive to operate, a bigger juicier target and just old in comparison to the Chinook which had all the latest bells and whistles. 15 were ordered and 7 more will be ordered soon, that is a given
These measly 15-20 number is nothing. Chinooks are not really efficient. It is better to transport via C130 or C295 than by Chinook. Chinook is not strategic either.

Apache was ordered because the Mi-35 was showing it's rust, Mi-28 Hunter and Apache were evaluated and Apaches were the victors. Now 22 + 6 on order, another 39 are a given. Since both IAF and IA squabbled over who would use them. IA will get their own. While it can be bolstered with the Rudra and LCH. LCH is a light attack helo while Apache is a proven workhorse heavy attack helo, it's the best in the business.
Apache is again, not useful as helicopters itself is not a good platform for fighting. Helicopters must be restricted to roles of transportation and surveillance including ASW. But fighting against land enemy is suicide. Regardless of whether it is Apache or LCH, it takes only 1 stinger missile to take them down. So, what is the great need of Apache here?

So ******s go about how these purchases are not strategic, well try mobilizing without C-17s and C-130s, let's see how long it would take for a deceive counter punch against any urgent need. During Dokhlam, a couple of C-17s in a few sorties moved over a battalion worth of troops in a matter of couple of hours. In less than 24 hours that re-enforcement was well over a brigade.
These are important but only stop gap measure. These can be replaced with Indian modified civilian plane from Air India. Substitutable goods are not considered strategic.

All these purchases also mostly happened when there was no pressure on India to offset trade surpluses.
Who told that USA was not pressuring India to buy its arms? There was regular pressure to buy USA arms.

IOR is for now still open game, to say it belongs to India now is an utterly stupid overstatement (nigga please). USN/USAF in Diego Gracia and a few other bases around IOR alone can muster more fire power than all IN combined. You want get rid of the US from IOR :rofl:Please my homies, someone please throw some sand on this nigga.
Do you have mental problems? I never said that IOR as of now is closed. I am speaking of intention to close half of IOR except for regions close to Arab coast to make it India dominant.

USA doesn't have enough firepower to match India near IOR. Diego Garcia can be wiped out by volley of missiles and cutting its supplies. It is extremely small territory and a big country like India can easily destroy it in 1 week.

First let's buy some heavy torpedos, active towed array sonars, continue to add LR-SAM on principal naval ships and then talk about how we dominate the IOR. Brahmos, Vikky alone isn't enough to say, this is our backyard.
India has Brahmos, torpedoes, mines, large number of destroyers and frigates to block waters near indian coast. Obviously, with Arabian countries, Indonesia, Malaysia waters, imposition of control will be hard. When I say IOR must be Indian, I mean yo control areas near Indian shores, not entire area. That is enough and doable. Controlling entire waters is not the aim.

COMCASA will give us direct access to Common Tactical picture For example, a US ship that would have picked up a Chinese submarine movement near the Malacca Strait would transfer information like its speed, location and direction to the Indian Navy in real time as well a live Video and Comms. We don't have such a level of agreement or real time intel or data sharing even with our closest ally Russia. COMCASA is also signed with no Indian obligation for US specific deals by the way and that is a fact. Realtime Intel sharing has already begun by the way
COMCASA doesn't guarantee anything. India can only send a request for the data but USA can refuse. So, there is no guarantee of intel Sharing. But the information acquired by Indian comms will automatically be accessible by USA. It is a one sided communication agreement. So, it is not really useful except as an enabler for getting high end technology like UCAV, special sensors etc but that too only if USA condition is met.
 

mayfair

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The pro-Amreeki dalaals are really out in force.

If one wishes to understand true allegiances, one must watch out for moments such as these, when Amreekis go out of their way to sabotage our interests and their dallaas come out in full force in the defence of the star-spangled banner.

Then of course we also have Cheeni dallas on these forums, for whom China pisses amritam.
 

Indx TechStyle

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The pro-Amreeki dalaals are really out in force.

If one wishes to understand true allegiances, one must watch out for moments such as these, when Amreekis go out of their way to sabotage our interests and their dallaas come out in full force in the defence of the star-spangled banner.

Then of course we also have Cheeni dallas on these forums, for whom China pisses amritam.
Amreeki dalla: @Zebra, @Immanuel
Chinki dalla: @Vijyes
 

Vijyes

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Then of course we also have Cheeni dallas on these forums, for whom China pisses amritam.
Amreeki dalla: @Zebra, @Immanuel
Chinki dalla: @Vijyes
I am a dharmic supremacist. China follows reason and thus follows dharma. I don't support any country. I support dharma only.

I only care for Dharma (reason) and want to ensure that every person on earth behaves reasonably. My support will solely depend on how much reasonable one is. I see Chinese as reasonable people and hence support China. It is as simple as that.

Calling me dalla of china is cheap. I am a person without regional restrictions. I don't stand for any country or ethnicity. I only stand with reason. This reason can be from anyone regardless of boundaries. I am a dharmayoddha or a dalla of dharma.
 

Vijyes

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Not a dalla, but put India first...In every situation our policy should be what's in this for India.
Put dharma first. If India betrays dharma, be ready to turn against India too. Anyone can betray anytime. Hence one must never trust any man or man made groupings absolutely. not even oneself or one's own family is absolutely trustworthy
 

Deathstar

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Put dharma first. If India betrays dharma, be ready to turn against India too. Anyone can betray anytime. Hence one must never trust any man or man made groupings absolutely. not even oneself or one's own family is absolutely trustworthy
We should be realistic.
Here Indian first is the embodiment of Dharma for every Indian.
 

mayfair

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I am a dharmic supremacist. China follows reason and thus follows dharma.
NO you are not and NO Chinese government does not follow reason or dharma, any more than Abrahamics. Chinese since historical times have been all about following the stick, whomsoever wielded it. Presently it's the Communist party, a bunch of as big adharmi as you'll see anywhere else.

If Cheeni sarkaar followed reason, there would have been no way that they would go out of their way to antagonise India each and every time.
 

Vijyes

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We should be realistic.
Here Indian first is the embodiment of Dharma for every Indian.
There is no individual dharma. Dharma is natural law and the aim of dharma is to seek knowledge and understand the purpose of life to fulfill it. Regardless of where one is born, dharma is universal.

The problem here is that Abrahamics are mentally unsound and believe in foolish theories made up by some prophet. They are rabidly against reason and dharma and hence cause destruction. So, it is important to ensure that such people are put down.

Simply opposing Chinese or calling Indian first is meaningless. Aim should be to ensure dharma first and to ensure that entire world follows dharma and Abrahmism is erased
 

Vijyes

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NO you are not and NO Chinese government does not follow reason or dharma, any more than Abrahamics. Chinese since historical times have been all about following the stick, whomsoever wielded it. Presently it's the Communist party, a bunch of as big adharmi as you'll see anywhere else.

If Cheeni sarkaar followed reason, there would have been no way that they would go out of their way to antagonise India each and every time.
China is not antagonising India. China just wants India to kick out Dalai Lama and resolve Tibet issue. China is afraid that India will use Dalai Lama to instigate riots in Tibet just like UK used its agents to instigate riots in Hong Kong.

As of now, India has come to agreement that next Dalai Lama will be chosen by China and until current Dalai Lama dies, status Quo will be maintained. Once current Dalai Lama dies, the border issue will be resolved and ties improved.

Might ia right is the first principle of dharma. So, the only way you can get things done is by forcing it to be done. China simply follow this method.
 

mayfair

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China is not antagonising India. China just wants India to kick out Dalai Lama and resolve Tibet issue. China is afraid that India will use Dalai Lama to instigate riots in Tibet just like UK used its agents to instigate riots in Hong Kong.

As of now, India has come to agreement that next Dalai Lama will be chosen by China and until current Dalai Lama dies, status Quo will be maintained. Once current Dalai Lama dies, the border issue will be resolved and ties improved.

Might ia right is the first principle of dharma. So, the only way you can get things done is by forcing it to be done. China simply follow this method.
That's the biggest pile of rubbish I have ever read.

India is not antagonising China, Dalai Lama has not been allowed to indulge in political activism in India. Both India and DL have formally accepted Tibet as a part of China. Chinese bastards on the other hand, still contest the status of Arunachal and J&K.

They have continued to prop up separatist movements in NE India, and provided active support to Maoists and BIFs. They have continued to antagonise us at every international forum- NSG being the latest example. When has India instigated insurgency in any part of China?

They support Shitistanis just to antagonise us. The LAC incursions, constant baiting at the borders, China is not interested in sorting the border issue with India, or for that matter with any of their nieghbours. It goes against their very nature, their very dharma so to speak. They believe that there cannot be two tigers on the same mountain, so they will never accept an India that may even approach a status matching theirs.

Well they are happy to get things done by forcing, but not happy when someone stands upto their bullying and pays back in the same coin.

As long as China exists in current form, lasting peace with India or any of their neighbours- especially Japan, Russia, Mongolia, Vietnam will be an illusion.

The Chinese dragon believes not in equality, but submission and it seems that the likes of you are happy to endorse this viewpoint.
 

Shiv sagar

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China is ruled by commies in their full might (the worst form) which hates democracy in any avatar. We are democratic and hence the hate will stay as long as we stay democratic. Because of the said reason ,Commies will find one reason or another to go against us even if Dalai Lama dies and India accepts Chinese Dalai Lama.
 

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