India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Deathstar]

So will it start by 2023 or does it get completed by 2023?

Completed , deliveries from 2020

 

[A chauhan]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ys-it-can-track-chinas-stealth-fighters-67542


:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[bhramos]

............................................

 

[bhramos]

IAF Missile Crew to go to Russia for S-400 Training Soon Published June 28, 2019 |

Indian Air Force will be sending its Missile Ground Crew to start training to operate S-400 air defense missile system later this year said the latest media reports. Russia will start training Indian specialists to operate the advanced long-range surface-to-air missile system from October this year, despite Washington’s strong opposition. Missile Ground Crew of IAF already have been witnessed to the missile firing demo of S-400 system last year and currently, the deal is close to completion as countries have deiced to trade in euros to a Russia-nominated bank to bypass the threat of US sanctions for purchase of military hardware including the S-400 air defense missile system. The Indian government last year had signed the much-anticipated deal worth $5.43-billion to buy five Russian S-400 Triumf missile shield systems at the 19th India-Russia annual bilateral summit at the Hyderabad House. The S-400 is expected to be inducted into Indian service in October 2020 and deliveries of the S-400 system will be completed by the end of 2020. India has placed orders for five S-400 regiments. Each regiment will have 64 launchers, which means 256 missiles with each regiment. India has opted only for Two interceptor missiles out of the family of four missile system,so each launcher will be armed with 2x40N6E missile with a range of 400km and 2x48N6 missile with a range of 250km. Very long range 40N6E and the 48N6 missile would significantly improve India’s ability to defend its own air space and serve as an effective stand-off weapon against air attacks.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/iaf-missile-crew-to-go-to-russia-for-s-400-training-soon/ .

 

[Immanuel]

[QUOTE="Vijyes, post: 1547992, member: 22296"
India doesn't care for USA. USA gives nothing to India and there is no meaningful defence relationship between India and USA.
Only you & @vampyrbladez dream that. None else support USA planes. People know the behaviour of USA.
[/QUOTE]

Complete laughable nonsense, Indian and US and more strategically intertwined than ever. It is now one of, if not the biggest arms suppliers to India. The ones who talk shit about the relationship are the ones who know least about how much we already share.

Their products are being ordered by the billions on a yearly basis. IN/IAF and IA spend more time & money training and assimilating with US and NATO structures, already since the early 2000s.

C-130J, C-17s, Apaches, Chinooks, P-8Is, MH-64s,, M777, NASAMS-2, SIG 762s and many more to come. Many of the existing platforms will have repeat orders, more Apaches, MH-64s, Chinooks, P-8I deals are on the cards for the next 4-5 years.

On the long run, Indo-US defense relations along with France, Russia and Israeli will the only relations that matter. US will stay ahead of the curve for a long time to come.

Shortly, India, US, Japan and Aussies will be able to watch the ins and outs of vast IOR regions.

Besides COMSACA, BECA, LEMOA, allow us access to a lot of US bases as well.

While you may run around unhappy with this closeness. Indian forces are quite happy with on time deliveries, product quality and reliability. Unlike the Russian after sales which till recently had the forces feeling quite exhausted.

While Russia and India will always remain close, so will the US and it is in India's best interest to keep close with these two giants since we all hate the Chinks and they are the only enemy that matters.

 

[Immanuel]

IAF Missile Crew to go to Russia for S-400 Training Soon Published June 28, 2019 |

Indian Air Force will be sending its Missile Ground Crew to start training to operate S-400 air defense missile system later this year said the latest media reports. Russia will start training Indian specialists to operate the advanced long-range surface-to-air missile system from October this year, despite Washington’s strong opposition. Missile Ground Crew of IAF already have been witnessed to the missile firing demo of S-400 system last year and currently, the deal is close to completion as countries have deiced to trade in euros to a Russia-nominated bank to bypass the threat of US sanctions for purchase of military hardware including the S-400 air defense missile system. The Indian government last year had signed the much-anticipated deal worth $5.43-billion to buy five Russian S-400 Triumf missile shield systems at the 19th India-Russia annual bilateral summit at the Hyderabad House. The S-400 is expected to be inducted into Indian service in October 2020 and deliveries of the S-400 system will be completed by the end of 2020. India has placed orders for five S-400 regiments. Each regiment will have 64 launchers, which means 256 missiles with each regiment. India has opted only for Two interceptor missiles out of the family of four missile system,so each launcher will be armed with 2x40N6E missile with a range of 400km and 2x48N6 missile with a range of 250km. Very long range 40N6E and the 48N6 missile would significantly improve India’s ability to defend its own air space and serve as an effective stand-off weapon against air attacks.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/iaf-missile-crew-to-go-to-russia-for-s-400-training-soon/ .

Going by this, a full regiment in IAF will thus have 8 Fire units/battalions/divisions of 8 launchers each i.e 32 missiles per fire unit which essentially means a Fire unit can easily take down 1 SQD of enemy fighters. Each Fire unit can also be between 30-100km away from the Regimental command center and the Bird Bird radar, allowing for some serious coverage.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Why would Russia want Turkey to buy its weapons? What does Russia get from it?

By this deal, Russia is already weakening NATO. If Turkey is forced to quit NATO in the near future... It would mean US warships losing access to the black sea during war time through the dardanelles strait. Turkey has the second largest military in NATO.

 

[Vijyes]

Complete laughable nonsense, Indian and US and more strategically intertwined than ever. It is now one of, if not the biggest arms suppliers to India. The ones who talk shit about the relationship are the ones who know least about how much we already share

Don't make big statements which you yourself can't explain. Just because USA supplies arms doesn't mean the relationship is valuable. 8f USA doesn't supply, it can be substituted with others. USA doesn't supply any critical arms that causes long term dependence.

Their products are being ordered by the billions on a yearly basis. IN/IAF and IA spend more time & money training and assimilating with US and NATO structures, already since the early 2000s

Yes, India is buying USA arms to offset trade surplus. I don't see how that is going yo make relationship strong. India is spending time and money doing exercise with everyone. India exercises with Oman, with Singapore, with Indonesia, with China and so on. The intention is to be ready to have good coordination in case of joint effort needed and to gain best practices from each other.

C-130J, C-17s, Apaches, Chinooks, P-8Is, MH-64s,, M777, NASAMS-2, SIG 762s and many more to come. Many of the existing platforms will have repeat orders, more Apaches, MH-64s, Chinooks, P-8I deals are on the cards for the next 4-5 years.

We don't buy critical technology from USA. THE c130 & P8 can be substituted by modifying a civilian airliner.

Rest all are forced purchases without real needs. They are just meant to reduce trade surplus. Apache, for example has no use. LCH or Rudra could have done same job. Apache may be bigger but that can also be taken down just as easily as Rudra by MANPADS. M777 is just light weight but has 27km range. Dhanush could be used 14km farther from M777 die to 41km range. These items if USA stops selling, will not cause any major problem and can be easily substituted. Calling them strategic shows shallow thinking.

On the long run, Indo-US defense relations along with France, Russia and Israeli will the only relations that matter. US will stay ahead of the curve for a long time to come.

I don't see a single use of USA defence relationship. I understand the need for Russian or Israeli but USA is simply wasteful. Which technology is USA going to give India at all? Why does India need that relationship if there is nothing on offer.

Shortly, India, US, Japan and Aussies will be able to watch the ins and outs of vast IOR regions.

IOR belongs to India. Why should USA, Australia or Japan have any say here? I don't see why India should not try to get rid of USA in IOR instead of joining hands?

Besides COMSACA, BECA, LEMOA, allow us access to a lot of US bases as well.

LEMOA is just logistical cost saver and not something strategic. It doesn't give permission for countries to use bases in wartime. BECA, COMCASA is useless for India. They are only useful for USA. India gets no access to data from COMCASA whereas USA will get the data.

While you may run around unhappy with this closeness. Indian forces are quite happy with on time deliveries, product quality and reliability. Unlike the Russian after sales which till recently had the forces feeling quite exhausted.

Again, bullshit. It was UPA that created problem, not Russia. Russia gave good support but UPA would not stockpile spares and instead order at last minute, causing logistical problem. Russia can't deliver goods in short notice. This is common sense everywhere. But the management is Indian duty.

USA doesn't offer anything meaningful yo be happy about. These shallow arguments don't cut it.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Which weapon system is India getting from Europe with full Technology transfer? Even Rafale will have Indian AESA ans engine. European companies don't give critical Technology transfer to India. Only Russia does give critical technology to India.

1. Rafale uses RBE2 AESA radar and SNECMA core M88 series engines.

2. Yes they do. We produced Jaguars under license here. Only limitation is money and influence and India has got both.

3. Exactly and that's why we have Russia orders for S400, new upgraded Akula III class submarine, lifetime AK 203 JV/JP, 4 Admiral Grigorovich Class (Krivak III/IV) frigates, NGMV (Gepard Class) orders, etc.
Stop being so negative.

 

[Vijyes]

Rafale uses RBE2 AESA radar and SNECMA core M88 series engines

This is not made in India Rafale. Made in India Rafale will not have French technology as France will not give them to India

Yes they do. We produced Jaguars under license here. Only limitation is money and influence and India has got

That was license assembly. That is not called technology transfer.

Overall West don't gone Technology in critical areas

 

[Lancer]

If the US blocks F-35's for Turkey, for all we know Turkey may end up getting the PAK-FA. In which case it'd be useless to us, because then there's nothing stopping Pakistan from getting juicy inside details.

 

[Vijyes]

If the US blocks F-35's for Turkey, for all we know Turkey may end up getting the PAK-FA. In which case it'd be useless to us, because then there's nothing stopping Pakistan from getting juicy inside details.

Are you saying that PAKFA is useless to Russia because Turkey will know its details? Are you saying that F16, F15 were were us because Arabs, Pakistan knew its details? Things are not as simple as that

 

[Lancer]

Are you saying that PAKFA is useless to Russia because Turkey will know its details? Are you saying that F16, F15 were were us because Arabs, Pakistan knew its details? Things are not as simple as that

Not 100% useless, but a lot of important inside info/details would be compromised. Allegedly, one of the reasons the F-16 evoked so little interest was because India didn't want a fighter that Pakistan already had (even though the one we were offered was significantly more advanced) - and the F-16 was only ever supposed to be a LWF/SEF.

Is it really conceivable that India would go with a cutting edge stealth fighter that's already partially scoped out by the Pakis and/or Chinese?

 

[Vijyes]

Not 100% useless, but a lot of important inside info/details would be compromised. Allegedly, one of the reasons the F-16 evoked so little interest was because India didn't want a fighter that Pakistan already had (even though the one we were offered was significantly more advanced) - and the F-16 was only ever supposed to be a LWF/SEF.

Is it really conceivable that India would go with a cutting edge stealth fighter that's already partially scoped out by the Pakis and/or Chinese?

India is not going with PAKFA as India wants full Technology which Russians won't give. So, India is going with AMCA only.

Nevertheless, your argument about PAKFA being useless because others know the details is flawed. Why can't this theory also be applied to Russia? Will Russia also find PAKFA as useless because Turkey and its allies like Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar, Iran etc also came to know of PAKFA? Then won't that make Russia a loser too? Why will Russia sell it if it is going to lose?

 

[Lancer]

India is not going with PAKFA as India wants full Technology which Russians won't give. So, India is going with AMCA only.

Nevertheless, your argument about PAKFA being useless because others know the details is flawed. Why can't this theory also be applied to Russia? Will Russia also find PAKFA as useless because Turkey and its allies like Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar, Iran etc also came to know of PAKFA? Then won't that make Russia a loser too? Why will Russia sell it if it is going to lose?

The first part of your comment is true on paper (we've officially pulled out of the FGFA program), but we will almost certainly be in the market for at least a few off the shelf squadrons of PAK FA in its current form. AMCA is little more than a pipe dream until it actually happens (reminder: we still aren't even mass producing the LCA Tejas).

As for the second part; because Russia's main concerns right now are the US/NATO, and to a lesser extent, China (who they are loosely allied with, but view with rightful suspicion). If Turkey continues to be alienated from the West/NATO, there's little risk of them sharing details of the PAK FA with those countries or with the countries of the GCC who are mostly US puppets.

The fact that the PAK FA was previously considered for sale for Iran (it still may be a possibility); shows Russia isn't concerned there.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, Russia has no direct threat from them, but the spectre of Pakistan passing details along to China exists (although China managing to snag details & reverse engineering Russian planes seems to be an inevitability).

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is not made in India Rafale. Made in India Rafale will not have French technology as France will not give them to India

If France wins 114 RFP contract for fighter aircraft then it HAS to allow for limited ToT to ensure serial production.

That was license assembly. That is not called technology transfer.

Overall West don't gone Technology in critical areas

Most of Su 30 MKI and other contacts are license production. Only place India has 100% ToT is in things that it co-develops.

 

[Vijyes]

AMCA is little more than a pipe dream until it actually happens (reminder: we still aren't even mass producing the LCA Tejas

Everything isna pipe dream until it becomes reality. I am only saying that there is realistic chance if India making AMCA as many technology has already been developed. Engine and stealth design is the only thing remaining. Mass production of LCA is irrelevant as India got Su30 TOT in the meantime.

As for the second part; because Russia's main concerns right now are the US/NATO, and to a lesser extent, China (who they are loosely allied with, but view with rightful suspicion). If Turkey continues to be alienated from the West/NATO, there's little risk of them sharing details of the PAK FA with those countries or with the countries of the GCC who are mostly US puppets.

This is an assumption. The ifs and buts can't be trusted. The USA may be main concern now but tomorrow Turkey, pakistan and other muslim countries can become major threat.

The fact that the PAK FA was previously considered for sale for Iran (it still may be a possibility); shows Russia isn't concerned there.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, Russia has no direct threat from them, but the spectre of Pakistan passing details along to China exists (although China managing to snag details & reverse engineering Russian planes seems to be an inevitability).

Why is Iran or Pakistan not a threat? Have you forgotten 1970s and 80s? There is no guarantee. So, either Russia is having an export version which doesn't leak secrets or Russia is being stupid

 

[Vijyes]

If France wins 114 RFP contract for fighter aircraft then it HAS to allow for limited ToT to ensure serial production.

Limited ToT where Indian AESA and Kaveri engine will be used in Rafale. That is still not full TOT of critical technology. This is what I am talking about when it comes to Technology sharing with west. Cheap technology will be given but difficult ones will be refused.

Most of Su 30 MKI and other contacts are license production. Only place India has 100% ToT is in things that it co-develops.

India gave funds for developing Su30 at a time when Russia was in economic distress. So, it comes under co-development too. Hence Su30 has full ToT.

 

[bhramos]

India acquiring S-400 missile defence system from Russia 'problem' for America: US commander

 

[ezsasa]

India acquiring S-400 missile defence system from Russia 'problem' for America: US commander

We are giving too much importance to this...

CAATSA is their own creation, let them deal with it. CAATSA does not designed against countries, rather for pushing banking institutions.

If we go ahead, what will they do? Stop selling us military equipment? It’s their problem not ours.

Just call their bluff and move ahead.