India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[bengalraider]

@gadeshi - About the Pantsir units you mentioned. Do you mean to say that buying twelve systems of S400 means buying twelve regiments of Pantsir as well?
In that case does the cost per system for a S400 unit include the cost for a Pantsir unit as well?

 

[gadeshi]

@gadeshi - About the Pantsir units you mentioned. Do you mean to say that buying twelve systems of S400 means buying twelve regiments of Pantsir as well?
In that case does the cost per system for a S400 unit include the cost for a Pantsir unit as well?

Not regiments, but divizions (Squads/Battalions).
In Russian VKS each battery of S-400 has a battery of Pantsyr-S1 for CIW and defence on marche or in positions creation/migration process, when S-400 is packed and cannot fire.
This is default OPTION.

 

[bengalraider]

This system seems to be intended as a replacement for our dated S200 Dubnas.

 

[gadeshi]

This system seems to be intended as a replacement for our dated S200 Dubnas.

S-400 is a completely mobile system. It works in 15-mins battle Tic-Toc (5 mins for unpacking, 5 mins for aim and fire, and 5 mins to pack and get out). It's quite different from fixed positioned S-200
Pantsyr-S1 and the others like PDM (anti-diversions machines) and Gazetchik-M radar defence siuts (to catch ARMs) are very useful and highly recommended options to sustain this tactics.

 

[SajeevJino]

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well from Thakur sir

 

[gadeshi]

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well from Thakur sir

This is for S-300VM/PM2 (Antey-2500).

 

[Immanuel]

^^ ..I don't think our order is much larger like that, may be two or three battalions only ..!

I think the deal is certainly for 12 regiments and based on what Gadeshi says, 4 battalions per Regiment with 4 batteries per battalion and 4 launchers or 16 missiles per battery. We are looking at 64 missiles per battalion or 256 missiles ready to fire per regiment with 128 missiles extra as reloads i.e. a total of 384 missiles per regiment as is the case in Russia at the moment. So, 3072 ready to fire missiles and total of 4608 missiles including reloads when all regiments are active.

Actually makes sense as Yusuf too was referring to this number. Makes little or no sense of buying any less considering with such an order, the entire Indian airspace and beyond can be covered effectively. A single regiment for instance can easily cover all of Kashmir from all sides, now that is quite an effective defensive net to have.

 

[brational]

I think the deal is certainly for 12 regiments and based on what Gadeshi says, 4 battalions per Regiment with 4 batteries per battalion and 4 launchers or 16 missiles per battery. We are looking at 64 missiles per battalion or 256 missiles ready to fire per regiment with 128 missiles extra as reloads i.e. a total of 384 missiles per regiment as is the case in Russia at the moment. So, 3072 ready to fire missiles and total of 4608 missiles including reloads when all regiments are active.

Actually makes sense as Yusuf too was referring to this number. Makes little or no sense of buying any less considering with such an order, the entire Indian airspace and beyond can be covered effectively. A single regiment for instance can easily cover all of Kashmir from all sides, now that is quite an effective defensive net to have.

This is going to drain hell lot of Money from India. I think 12 Divisions/3 Regiments are enough to guard Western & Northern and Eastern sky. @gadeshi What is the cost per Division/Regiment?

 

[gadeshi]

This is going to drain hell lot of Money from India. I think 12 Divisions/3 Regiments are enough to guard Western & Northern and Eastern sky. @gadeshi What is the cost per Division/Regiment?

Costs are confidential information, I'm not an insider and can just gather and analyse open sources.
However, as for Soviet times, prices are flexible depending on quantities, complectation package and ally status.
I think, Indian order will be MUCH cheaper than any other except for Chinese one.
Russian MOD price + 15-20% (in difference with generic 35-45% for other deals) + wide system parts localization (questionable).

 

[brational]

Costs are confidential information, I'm not an insider and can just gather and analyse open sources.
However, as for Soviet times, prices are flexible depending on quantities, complectation package and ally status.
I think, Indian order will be MUCH cheaper than any other except for Chinese one.
Russian MOD price + 15-20% (in difference with generic 35-45% for other deals) + wide system parts localization (questionable).

Any idea why Chinese deals were Cheaper compared to India? Russia offers them Cheap deal so that China make a copy and compete against Russia in International market with the copy?

 

[gadeshi]

Any idea why Chinese deals were Cheaper compared to India? Russia offers them Cheap deal so that China make a copy and compete against Russia in International market with the copy?

I think Chinese order will not be cheaper, but will have equal prices as Indian one according to current political situation.
And BTW, heavy AD/BMD systems are not easy subjects to copy. Chinese copies of S-300 are still much inferior to their prototypes.

 

[gadeshi]

And I think if this deal will contain localization package, TATA and some weapons producers will have a golden mine But Almaz/Antei will strictly controll the quality, so it won't be easy.

 

[bengalraider]

@gadeshi the Chinese apparently paid around 500$million for each system they are getting. That would put our deal at around 6$billion for the entire set of twelve.

 

[gadeshi]

@gadeshi the Chinese apparently paid around 500$million for each system they are getting. That would put our deal at around 6$billion for the entire set of twelve.

$500M seems not for Division, but for Regiment...
I cannot be sure, but it seems so.

 

[bengalraider]

The BAZ 64022 can pull 45.8 tonnes and has a 470 hp engine.
There does not seem to be any truck currently manufactured in India ( apart from the bigger TATRAs) that can fit that profile.

 

[bengalraider]

$500M seems not for Division, but for Regiment...
I cannot be sure, but it seems so.

The entire Chinese deal was around 3$billion, did they buy only six regiments?

 

[gadeshi]

The entire Chinese deal was around 3$billion, did they buy only six regiments?

6 regiments is BIG. All the Moscow AD District/Central Industrial District is defended by 12 Regiments (12x4 Divizions).

 

[Anikastha]

This system seems to be intended as a replacement for our dated S200 Dubnas.

What about our Akash/AAD..Can't they do same like s-400?

 

[Chinmoy]

What about our Akash/AAD..Can't they do same like s-400?

Dear @SREEKAR , now Akash is not a LRSAM like that of S400. Whereas AAD is basically an BMD missile. Now there is a difference between how a SAM works and how a BMD works. The target for both these missiles are different. S400 could be effective against cruise missiles, but it would not work against IRBM and ICBMs. This is where AAD comes into play.

 

[gadeshi]

What about our Akash/AAD..Can't they do same like s-400?

Full mobility, 100% area sensors and firing coverage, 400km range, all network centric warfare, AD and BMD in one package? No.
@Chinmoy, S-400 can work on IRBM/OTBM targets, but cannot heat ICBM, just like no others (except for THAAD, SM3/6 and GDI) can. Even so, those 3 named systems effectiveness is questionable.
S-500 will be capable of ICBM and hypersonic missiles defence, but it will be in 2017-2019.