India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[bengalraider]

Report says we are looking at 12 systems which means 72x12=864 launchers and over 4000 missiles?


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Could also mean 12 division with eight launchers each for a more believable 96 launchers and around 500 missiles!
That said the numbers you quote are far more tempting.

 

[Yumdoot]

Subject : S-400 !!??

Dear PM,

Modi ji, with 6% of the defence budget allocated to R&D even ch#$ya stuff from foreign countries will look great. That is exactly how we ended up with the largest Imported Armed Forces in the Universe. These US fanboys will love your -"visit a country order an import" style, since that opens up the system to even more imports from their beloved country using the same excuses and sourcing channels. They will keep cheering you for flawed imports based security and keep holding out Pakis as a threat and never talk about the criminality involved in the 6% R&D budget. Please stop using indigenous efforts as a negotiating tool with foreigners. Anthony used to do that and look what happened. Kindly have patience with indigenous efforts.

Pahle hi we had this Barak warak nonsense and now this. What will the armed forces do with all this foreign weaponry. Do they plan to fight for the foreigners?

I just hope we are able to get out of this flawed understanding that Weapons imports will give us geo-strategic importance in the security calculus of others. Geo-strategic worth sey weapons milte hain not the otherway round. That is how the US supplied weapons to Soviets to save their own fa$#%ty a$$. That is how the Chinese could source their missing Uranium. That is how the Pakis got their muft-ka-maal. That is how even we Indians gave a ghanta to the second hand subs from the west in the 50s. On the flip side that is why the Brits are a munna today - because they import from their their illegitimate fathers.

And these foreigners will only hold you back when you have to actually do something around town.

Kindly observe the US began supplying us weapon only because they realized that we have the Russians option and Indigenous capability to have the same thing with a only a marginal delay. Please have faith in indigenous effort. These foreigners and their chamchas are going to sell out India, unless you do something about it. This Jahangir-panthi has to stop for India to survive.

The 200-250 km SAM was a relatively easy job, there is no point in importing stuff that is not needed. If you remember sometime back the corridors of power were floating rumours that India cannot do good guidance algorithms at the behest of the French fanboys. That was so because within the establishment and outside our countries live a hell lot of accidental Indians. They have sucked the system but they want us to become the munna of their favourite countries. They are not faithful to the country they were born into. They hate the fact that they were born there. Kindly learn to hate them back with equal zest.

Even if you plan to do something with the Russians because of strategic needs and understandings, kindly note that there are several good things that we can do with the Russians and this need not necessarily be it. We are undershooting the target if a strategic relation building with Russians is the target.

My suggestion to you would be that you go to sleep and wake up for 3 days meditating on the criminality involved in 6% budget and 7500 designers. I assure you by 4th day you will know what to do. And kindly do that before you undershoot with Putin. Because that undershooting will determine also what you ultimately end up shooting with the other countries. Please remember Russians are half the reasons the west opened up to providing weapons that they normally do not wish to sell.

regards
Yumdoot

 

[Yumdoot]

Oh! its a Toilet report.

Sorry Modi ji for the unsolicited advise.

Will take care next time.

On second thought if the report have any truth in them then unsolicited advise request stands.

 

[bengalraider]

@Yumdoot -The Russians are talking about a deal as well!

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151011/1028361087/india-may-buy-russian-s400.html

 

[brahmastra11]

We should buy only for critical installations (If we are buying it). Rest should follow Brahmos.

This should be brought under Brahmos project and next generation Anti-Missile Defence system should be built.

 

[brahmastra11]

My profile country flag is showing US flag inspite mentioning location India.. How to change it ?

 

[Chinmoy]

I would define S400 to be a LRSAM then a ABM. But yes, with its range of 400KM, it could be a good answer to Pakistan's TBM. But against IRBM's and ICBM's, I think we would be going with AAD and PAD only.

 

[Yumdoot]

@Yumdoot -The Russians are talking about a deal as well!

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151011/1028361087/india-may-buy-russian-s400.html

Saurav Jha too had hinted that 3 major strategic initiatives/buys, are on the cards, with Modi-Putin meet. Probably this is too far advanced to even protest now. Kind of like the 36 Rafale, which started as a 24 Rafale rumour and got confirmed as 36 in the France visit. But that does not take anything away from what Bharat Karnad is saying - that Modi govt. has not taken a comprehensive view w.r.t. its weapons imports.

We went to France declared a small import allowing the French to cultivate our armed forces officers. We went to US declared a small import again. Americans were never to be left behind in such cultivation efforts themselves. Now the Russians expect the same and they have the balance of past good karma with them, should they decide to exploit the situation.

See a marriage is a Dharmic karyakalap but that does not stop people from negotiating. What did we get in return from the French or the Americans. In that respect we never went to Britain and yet the Brits were able to force our people to order for HAWK 132 upgradation plan. That too after thoroughly cussing HAL for its ‘quality’. When in fact HAL makes more aircrafts of more types then the whole of fcuking Britain. With the policy we have chalked out we will end up making a Britain out of the French and Americans too.

Our aim should have been too take the Russian relationship to the next level. To the strategic level. Nukes, reactors and cutting edge joint research in areas where we can. That would force open, even the western doors on such stuff. Instead we end up with more of the same kind of weapons that we have been importing since 1962. Have we moved nothing since 1962. 1962 was >50 years back. A relationship that started 50 years back is still caught up in importing stuff.

Chote munh badi baat (don't want to teach and preach), but what I see as the problem is as follows:
PMO decides on a visit and asks the stakeholders what is there ‘wishlist’. Then the PMO proceeds to minimize that list and makes offers/counter-offers, hoping for response from the other side.

The problem with this is that the stakeholders present their laundry list, large parts of which would essentially step on the toes of the other stakeholders.

The way out is to rely on MoD to tell the PMO that what are the absolutely “stuck up points” (with no solution in sight) in arms buildup or R&D. People are usually, for various reasons not going to accept this point except when this stuck-up status points at somebody else, at which point everybody would be more than willing to talk.

Once these stuck-up points are collected, then the PMO should be approaching its allies around the world to see what it can strike as a deal. This again takes time. But only the progress on the ‘absolutely stuck up’ points, will tell us, with whom our current interests match or who is our current ally. So unless say S-400 itself is a negotiating point to have the Westerners, release some more tech-barriers, there is little in in the S-400 deal for us. Little in the sense, that which cannot be done by investing more money and manpower in our own establishment. What is stuck up that cannot be solved and can only be addressed with S-400 deal?

Notice how the Chinese approach their needs. You will never find the Chinese importing stuff. Gorging in a buffet meal kind of way, the way we do. They will pay white money and black too and then arrange to make it look like their intel ‘stole’ it or they reverse-engineered it. But they will take only what they 'need' without disturbing their own efforts.

Result, is that an Indo-China, military situation of parity has been vitiated completely within just 1 decade. Problem is there are a lot of people who have deliberately been taken to ride to make it appear like the Chinese are an idiot and also a threat. Normally any reasonable man would question it – what sort of threat can an idiot be expected to mount? But this never gets questioned. The very people who will propagate the view that Chinese are idiots will claim they are a threat. Reality till now has been the China has been able to upstage India consistently. While we keep fighting about what to import/not import, next. Chinese may have their flaws but they are not the ones that the internet chatter would have you believe. They have paid massive premium for what stuff that we beg all the world across and taken only what they felt they could not do inside China with Chinese manpower and Chinese money.

 

[jackprince]

My profile country flag is showing US flag inspite mentioning location India.. How to change it ?

Change proxy settings. The coding catches your IP and shows the location based on that.

 

[gadeshi]

The interesting thing about this is, instead of the traditional KamAZ chassis, they are using a TATA chassis.
Edit: Just saw you mentioned TATA in that video about Modi which you later stated as wrong video.

Moreover this, TATA is used by default for export versions of Pantsyr-S1U and Tor-M2U.

 

[bengalraider]

@Yumdoot - The thing is, the S400 is very much a strategic system that no one else in the world can sell us.I also see you believe the Chinese never bought any Russian arms in bulk , while this is true for tanks, APCs and other ground forces equipment ,that inference is not true if strategic systems like the S300/400 series are considered.The Chinese have bought and are already using nearly forty batteries of various versions of the S300. It is also true that they have since successfully reverse engineered them and built a further 60 batteries of the HQ-10/15/17/18 family using the S300 as a template.
The Chinese had a long term plan in place since the 70s to turn into a superpower as they see themselves as the only viable competition to the United States and their entire planning reflects their goal of eventually turning into the preeminent global power.
We have just started on outbreak strategic long term goals and eventually we too shall build all of our kit at home. However in the interim we need to choose to steal or to buy. China chose stealing, we have chosen to buy.
The S400 should buy us enough time to pump in money into our domestic efforts and help us develop a comparable SAM in the long term.

 

[gadeshi]

S-400 has a great advantages upon all the others (except for range) - complete mobility allowing 15 minutes Tic-Toc action and a full set of sensors included.
A few dozens of S-400 means a few dozens of divizions (squadrons) 4 batteries each (battery is 4-6 TELs and 4 TLMs each) + divizion-level sensors, self-defence, control and liasion systems.
And the equal quantity of Pantsyr-S1U as a default S-400 self-defence systems.
And yes, TATA chassis can be used (if TATA has chassis with equal tonnage and off-roads capabilities like MZKT has).
And at the top of this, Indian S-400 might have indigenous liasion, maintenance and command posts (the latter ones must be S-400 enabled and augmented with Russian hard and soft).

 

[gadeshi]

The S-350 is more compact and carries more missiles. With 150 Km range Mr-SAm I don't know why we need this. DRDO can deliver 250 km range SAM from AAD if required.

It is dought in DRDO produced system's complete mobility and uniformity.
Vietnam era experiense says to us that if you are got caught, you are dead as corps if you'll not flee from launch point to change position in 5-15 mins

 

[gadeshi]

Actually both frontiers, it's going to help us get strategic depth into the Tibetan airspace as well.
No news on the Americans offering us THAAD yet.
I believe we have at least six batteries of S300 protecting six key cities and sites.However this cannot be confirmed.

THAAD cannot heat atmospheric target because it has space-only Kinetic Interceptor as a warhead.

 

[gadeshi]

The S400 system is supplied in units of entire divisions and not piecemeal.
The Chinese have bought six divisions with eight launchers each. The exact number of missiles varies according to the type of missiles chosen.

That said this is what wiki says

Divizion (squad) has 4 batteries 4-6 TELs + 4 TLMs each.

 

[gadeshi]

We should buy only for critical installations (If we are buying it). Rest should follow Brahmos.

This should be brought under Brahmos project and next generation Anti-Missile Defence system should be built.

S-400 is not a point defence, but area-defence system.

 

[Immanuel]

Could also mean 12 division with eight launchers each for a more believable 96 launchers and around 500 missiles!
That said the numbers you quote are far more tempting.

I believe we will order 12 Regimental sets or 36 Battalions.

1 Regiment can have 2-3 Battalions. Each battalion has 8 launchers and 32 missiles. Initial 'regimental sets' in the Russian inventory contained 2 battalions, a new Russian regimental set now has 3 battalions. By this calculation we have be 1152 missiles ready to fire with at least double to triple the number in reloads thus at least 2304-3456 missiles.

https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/s-400/

I think with clever combo of 40N6 400km long range missile (for use against awacs, transport etc.), 48N6DM 250km range missile (against cruise missiles, recon UAVS etc.) & 9M96E2 120km medium range ( for use against highly maneuverable fighters). We can cover different types of threat types.

The S-400, I also believe will benefit from 'make in India' thus plenty of the stuff will be made locally. Also in combo with Akash, Spyder and Barak-NG, Indian air space becomes virtually impregnable. I say go for it.

 

[gadeshi]

I believe we will order 12 Regimental sets or 36 Battalions.

1 Regiment can have 2-3 Battalions. Each battalion has 8 launchers and 32 missiles. Initial 'regimental sets' in the Russian inventory contained 2 battalions, a new Russian regimental set now has 3 battalions. By this calculation we have be 1152 missiles ready to fire with at least double to triple the number in reloads thus at least 2304-3456 missiles.

https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/s-400/

I think with clever combo of 40N6 400km long range missile (for use against awacs, transport etc.), 48N6DM 250km range missile (against cruise missiles, recon UAVS etc.) & 9M96E2 120km medium range ( for use against highly maneuverable fighters). We can cover different types of threat types.

The S-400, I also believe will benefit from 'make in India' thus plenty of the stuff will be made locally. Also in combo with Akash, Spyder and Barak-NG, Indian air space becomes virtually impregnable. I say go for it.

Yes, Russian VKS gets S-300/S-400 by regimental complects.
But regiment is not 2-3 but 4 Divisions (Batallions or Squads) 4 batteries each.
Each battery has 4-6 TELs + 4 TLMs (transport-loading machine) + its own VVO all-altitude radar + targetting radars + Gazetchik-M radar-defence suit + Pantsyr-S1 battery (4 units) for self-defence.
And this is beyond command post, living containers and anti-divesion vehicles.

 

[SajeevJino]

^^ ..I don't think our order is much larger like that, may be two or three battalions only ..!

 

[gadeshi]

^^ ..I don't think our order is much larger like that, may be two or three battalions only ..!

Bearing in mind that minimal package is Divizion/Battalion and India is going to buy 12 units...
But 12 Divizions is 3 Regiments.
WOW!