India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[brational]

If MTCR is applicable then Maximum range will be capped below 300 Km.

 

[bengalraider]

Yes.
I have one question.Instead of getting from russia , why don't we have some joint development with Israel / russia?
This may help us in future to design and assemble our own weapons.
@bengalraider need your help.

Development of domestic systems need both time and money. The S400 buy shall buy us the time required to understand the operations and intricacies of such VLRSAM systems , while also ensuring that the nation's air defence is not compromised in the interim.
I believe we are working on multiple fronts simultaneously with the masters in each field and as with the BRAHMOS ultimately our efforts will bear fruit.
We are already working to increase the range of the swordfish LRTR and the ER version of the BARAK 8 alongside the Israelis. A JV with the Russians to codevelop a MKI version of the S400 must not be discounted.
We also need to understand that in many ways this is 1991 repeating itself. Now with the sanctions and barriers over Ukraine and the drop in crude and LNG prices the Russians again find themselves going down an economic sinkhole. As earlier they have again decided to use their vast and MIC as a cash cow. We need to jump on the gravy train now!

 

[bengalraider]

If MTCR is applicable then Maximum range will be capped below 300 Km.

MTCR is not applicable for missiles with a warhead less than 500kg in weight.

 

[bengalraider]

So, it is cheaper option than going for Rafales.

Why does it not get highlighted during Rafale talks then?

Because buying planes and SAMs is different. You will still need planes to bomb your enemies into submission. The S400 just makes it easier for you to do it !

 

[brational]

MTCR is not applicable for missiles with a warhead less than 500kg in weight.

What about Brahmos?
Moreover, US and China will force Russia to stop this deal. If this deal gets through Bakis will be neutralized. Hence, it is against US and Chinese interests.

 

[SajeevJino]

This is way better investment than the Rafale for instance, cancel the Rafale deal and we'll find the money. The cost of 12 Regiments or Systems would be around 8 billion including offsets, some TOT and local assembly. With eventual inventory going over 4000 missiles, the S400 would make the entire airspace virtually impregnable when combined with the others, would send some serious shivers all around.

There is a need of Rafale is must for Bombing role, the IAF fighters can easily achieve air superiority over Pakistani within first 48 hours, with the use of Su 30 and MiG 29, the next phase is bombing each and every strategic places of Pakistan and stopping their ground forces.

for that what would we use, we already saw in the Syrian campaign how much those GLONASS guided bombs works, and what's the usage of Bombers, the same Syrian situation will repeat in Pakistan if we engaged a war, with the air superiority and using the Jaguar's for taking out their moving AN TPS 77 Early warning Radar's and SPADA 2000 SAM systems.

Even they pose their MANPAD's making our Fighter to bomb from High altitude only, here you need a good fighter having good bombs with good accuracy. honestly compared to the French and American precision bombing, the Russian bombing is not much accurate.

The need of Rafale type aircraft is must

 

[gadeshi]

Because buying planes and SAMs is different. You will still need planes to bomb your enemies into submission. The S400 just makes it easier for you to do it !

Moreover this, planes and SAMs will supplement each other. SAMs will make a first shot on enemy airspace treats and then will go offline to change positions and reload. This time is fighters part - they will fire the second strike, covering SAMs during reload/position change process, than withdraw when SAMs will be ready to not to be shot down by SAMs next shot.

 

[gadeshi]

What about Brahmos?
Moreover, US and China will force Russia to stop this deal. If this deal gets through Bakis will be neutralized. Hence, it is against US and Chinese interests.

Nobody can force Russia to cancell this (or any other) deal, especially US.
Chinese, as all of the BRICS/SOC countries see common sense and mutual profit in strenthen each other borders and defences. Something BIG is coming and all the worlds destiny depends on those countries unity and ability to defend themselves and each other. So, Chinese will not even protest this deal.

 

[Screambowl]

And Pakistan will do one more mumbai and we will give dossiers. What's the use?

 

[gadeshi]

Honestly compared to the French and American precision bombing, the Russian bombing is not much accurate. The need of Rafale type aircraft is must

Cannot agree with this.

If you'll see the Syrian strikes videos, you can find out that Russians can bomb their targets with dumb unguided bombs with the precision bombs accuracy. It's because the new mission computers and algorythms position both plane and target and bind them to each other in one coordinate space. It is quite different from earlier approach that positioned target only.

And now please see the new weapons from MAKS-2015, which will be a part of T-50 arsenal and the other planes can use them as well...
French bombs will suck them

 

[SajeevJino]

Cannot agree with this.

If you'll see the Syrian strikes videos, you can find out that Russians can bomb their targets with dumb unguided bombs with the precision bombs accuracy. It's because the new mission computers and algorythms position both plane and target and bind them to each other in one coordinate space. It is quite different from earlier approach that positioned target only.

let me see ..

And now please see the new weapons from MAKS-2015, which will be a part of T-50 arsenal and the other planes can use them as well...
French bombs will suck them

PAK FA weapon package is quite awesome..no doubt about that

By coming the Rafale can be armed with the Indian PGM's which comes in low cost, and Keep the PAK FA to eliminate high value targets only ..

 

[gadeshi]

let me see ..
PAK FA weapon package is quite awesome..no doubt about that
By coming the Rafale can be armed with the Indian PGM's which comes in low cost, and Keep the PAK FA to eliminate high value targets only ..

I look with more interest on Rafale armed with PAK FA weapons...
It's logical to do so to reduce weapons usage costs and make their arsenal uniform for all the planes in Air Force.
It is possible as far as all the modern fighters have open avionics architecture exactly for this purpose...

 

[SajeevJino]

I look with more interest on Rafale armed with PAK FA weapons...

PAK FA comes with completely new series of missiles, which is no match to the Rafale

Rafale keep with MICA's meteors, Exocet, AASM, Brimstones and some Indian weapons if they agreed to modify the Rafale's

It's logical to do so to reduce weapons usage costs and make their arsenal uniform for all the planes in Air Force.

Yep ..that's some good reason to escape from logistics and spare issues.

It is possible as far as all the modern fighters have open avionics architecture exactly for this purpose...

It's hard, the Russians allows to modify the jets to integrate desi systems, not many others Mirage fleet will not carry desi missiles.

 

[gadeshi]

PAK FA comes with completely new series of missiles, which is no match to the Rafale
Rafale keep with MICA's meteors, Exocet, AASM, Brimstones and some Indian weapons if they agreed to modify the Rafale's
Yep ..that's some good reason to escape from logistics and spare issues.
It's hard, the Russians allows to modify the jets to integrate desi systems, not many others Mirage fleet will not carry desi missiles.

We already have precedents with South African Mirage F-1, which are armed with several AA and AG russian missiles and remotorized with RD-33 engine.

 

[Immanuel]

There is a need of Rafale is must for Bombing role, the IAF fighters can easily achieve air superiority over Pakistani within first 48 hours, with the use of Su 30 and MiG 29, the next phase is bombing each and every strategic places of Pakistan and stopping their ground forces.

for that what would we use, we already saw in the Syrian campaign how much those GLONASS guided bombs works, and what's the usage of Bombers, the same Syrian situation will repeat in Pakistan if we engaged a war, with the air superiority and using the Jaguar's for taking out their moving AN TPS 77 Early warning Radar's and SPADA 2000 SAM systems.

Even they pose their MANPAD's making our Fighter to bomb from High altitude only, here you need a good fighter having good bombs with good accuracy. honestly compared to the French and American precision bombing, the Russian bombing is not much accurate.

The need of Rafale type aircraft is must

When the air is already safe enough with the S-400's long reach, the MKI, Mig-29 UPG, Mirages, Jags, Mig-27s can be used to good effect for bombing/strike missions. Keep in mind Jags will be deployed with the CBU-105SFW, they also deploy weapons like Griffin, Paveways, HSLDs, Harpoons for maritime strikes etc. Heck even the Mig-27s in IAF with dumb bombs have demonstrated CEP of less than 15meters. Russian PGMs have routinely demoed CEP of around 4-5m which is not bad at all. The MKI too deploys Griffins, Popeye missiles, Kh-59/ Kh-31A/P, KAB-500/1500L bombs, Kh-29L, Betab and other cluster bombs. All this is plenty enough to take care of any threat the enemy poses. the Mig-29UPG too can perform strike and bombing roles now when needed.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/07/special-report-story-of-indias-mig-27.html

Besides having 36 Rafale out of which only 25-26 which will be available anytime will have no significant additional advantage when it comes firepower. Certainly not when we have to pay 9 billion for them. So there is actually no argument that makes enough sense to justify the Rafale deal. Rafale type aircraft is not a must, if anything we just need to order 70 more Super MKI and all these can be delivered by 2021. We should also order 60 off the shelf PAKFA and these deliveries can be completed by 2022 while we convert the MKI line into PAKFA-MKI line for local manufacture of an additional 140 in India.

Over the next couple of years, the MKI will deploy more Indian weapons starting with Brahmos, Nirbhay, Brahmos Mini, Guided glide bombs, LGBs. LCA, Mirages, Jags, Mig-29UPG too will carry these glide bombs, LGBs etc. So again the Rafale is far too late, far too expensive and far too unnecessary. The aircraft is good but makes little sense when acquired in such paltry numbers for such high prices. For the same amount of 9 billion we can have 12-15 S-400 Regiments and that will make Indian airspace virtually impenetrable.

 

[Chinmoy]

Here is something more to think about :

Although China's acquisition of the S-400 system has been viewed as a "game changer" in the region, several factors may constrain its effectiveness in East Asia. Though the 40N6 missile has a range of 400 km, it is not known if such a missile is available for export. Even if China does acquire the missile, the disputed Senkaku Islands would be at the limit of its range if stationed along the coast, as would the Indian capital New Delhi if stationed right on the border and moved into the Himalaya Mountains. Against Taiwan, only the 40N6 could bring all its airspace in range, but deploying it along the coast of Fujian Province at sea level would prevent it from locating low-level aircraft at long range due to the Earth's curvature; the shorter-range 48N6 would be even less useful against maneuvering targets at long range. These issues, along with dangers of misidentifying and engaging friendly aircraft at such great distances, may restrict Chinese S-400 use to mainly defensive purposes.

 

[Yumdoot]

1) In Himalayas the ground based masted radars ain't gonna work to its full potential.
2) Then there is no way to have the S-400 transported from one point in the Himalayas to another (Say Ladakh to Uttarakhand) since there is no lateral connectivity.
3) Then there is no way to transport S-400 from say Leh to Sikkim, without coming onto the plains of UP, which cuts the on station time as well is exposes the system to Satellite intel majorly since all the routes in UP are going to be pretty closely watched.
4) Then there is the small problem of integrating the S-400 system onto our systems which are a massive mix-match of Russian, European, Israeli and Home grown sensors and platforms.
5) Pakistan front is already too well provided for. So it makes little sense to go after Pakis with this thing. They don't deserve this expensive piece of hardware. You may as well kill a few camels with it. Will give you the same bang for the same buck.

If this is on the cards then I am not sure why it is there on the cards.

 

[Chinmoy]

1) In Himalayas the ground based masted radars ain't gonna work to its full potential.
2) Then there is no way to have the S-400 transported from one point in the Himalayas to another (Say Ladakh to Uttarakhand) since there is no lateral connectivity.
3) Then there is no way to transport S-400 from say Leh to Sikkim, without coming onto the plains of UP, which cuts the on station time as well is exposes the system to Satellite intel majorly since all the routes in UP are going to be pretty closely watched.
4) Then there is the small problem of integrating the S-400 system onto our systems which are a massive mix-match of Russian, European, Israeli and Home grown sensors and platforms.
5) Pakistan front is already too well provided for. So it makes little sense to go after Pakis with this thing. They don't deserve this expensive piece of hardware. You may as well kill a few camels with it. Will give you the same bang for the same buck.

If this is on the cards then I am not sure why it is there on the cards.

It would be a good deterrent against the BRBM and SRBM of pakistan while our PAD and AAD should take care of MRBM. But I too see it as equally effective against their cruise missiles. So I think its a good investment on part of India. Moreover we should take this opportunity to augment our indigenous effort on developing and tweeking our own BMD and SAM capability.

 

[Immanuel]

and battery can be

1) In Himalayas the ground based masted radars ain't gonna work to its full potential.
2) Then there is no way to have the S-400 transported from one point in the Himalayas to another (Say Ladakh to Uttarakhand) since there is no lateral connectivity.
3) Then there is no way to transport S-400 from say Leh to Sikkim, without coming onto the plains of UP, which cuts the on station time as well is exposes the system to Satellite intel majorly since all the routes in UP are going to be pretty closely watched.
4) Then there is the small problem of integrating the S-400 system onto our systems which are a massive mix-match of Russian, European, Israeli and Home grown sensors and platforms.
5) Pakistan front is already too well provided for. So it makes little sense to go after Pakis with this thing. They don't deserve this expensive piece of hardware. You may as well kill a few camels with it. Will give you the same bang for the same buck.

If this is on the cards then I am not sure why it is there on the cards.

These points are non issues. The Regiments, battalions and batteries will be based permanently in classified locations in over-lapping arcs cross states and close to underground bunkers which allow for quick re-location to underground safety incase of breaches in the defensive net, 'if that ever happens'. Each battalion can have plenty of separation. Fact is when it comes to hostilities, the long ranges allow us to take down enemies within their own territory. Also the 400km 40N6/ 48N6 are ready and will be available for export. Besides even if the masted radars don't work to their full potential, they still will have ability to detect and track targets out to over 400km away easily.

Gadeshi, can you provide more details on how far can different battalions & batteries be placed within the same regiment, I hear a battalion can be placed up to 100 km away from the Regiment's command center and a battery upto 40 km from battalion command? Is this true? If this is indeed true, 1 regiment can cover all of Arunachal, Sikkim. There wouldn't be a need to transport them across states. A battalion can deploy up to 64 missiles in ready to fire mode.

Integration won't be an issue, we have been operating different radars from different countries for a long time, this can be done as well. Paki front is covered indeed but there are gaps when it comes to ballistic/cruise missile defense, S-400 will allow us to shoot down missiles like Nasr, Babur and their plenty of their aircraft in their own territory.

As to why its on the cards, is a no brainer, because it simply is the biggest, baddest air defense system out there and it give us long defensive/offensive legs allowing these missiles to kill targets beyond enemy lines without putting our own aircraft in harms way while freeing up a significant portion of IAF's birds to focus on punishing the enemy on the ground. This deal dollar for dollar brings more value than 36 Rafale can ever dream to bring.

 

[Chinmoy]

Now @Immanuel

Gadeshi, can you provide more details on how far can different battalions & batteries be placed within the same regiment, I hear a battalion can be placed up to 100 km away from the Regiment's command center and a battery upto 40 km from battalion command? Is this true? If this is indeed true, 1 regiment can cover all of Arunachal, Sikkim. There wouldn't be a need to transport them across states. A battalion can deploy up to 64 missiles in ready to fire mode.

don't be so sure of this point. As I am from N.E and worked pretty much close to services here, I would say that 1 regiment can't cover the whole of A.P. You do need at least a regiment of 3 to be relaxed over here .