India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Chinmoy]

Russia has golden Piggy bank called China which can fund as much money it wants if Russia is going to sell them any advanced weapon system which Chinese are not able to produce ..Like how they paid and bought S-35 and S-400 system ..Plus any US sanction will not hurt china and Russia relations .It is only a curse for us that fucking we are getting caught in this crossfire between these two Cold War giants ...

There is one more reason for us getting caught up in this cross fire. The recent surcharge increase by India on US products.

But we would have some good news soon enough after the 2+2 meeting. Don't worry.

 

[Kshithij]

The question is not about reliability or India buying any particular weapons but denying Russia any type of business and thus choking Russia monetarily so it doesn't have any money for r&d and becomes weak and breaks apart just like USSR.....

Russia has as much oil as KSA. Russia has 25% of world natural gas reserve. Russia has its own food production and all the natural resource it needs. There is no question of putting Russia down. USA is the one which is going down as its trade deficit widens and it keeps printing dollars. So, USA wants to create permanent relationship by creating dependency on countries like India so as to be able to milk the dependency by selling overpriced spare parts and other items to keep USA economy up..

Again, India does not discriminate against any country while levying taxes. It is just that India taxes what it considers "luxury" goods very highly.

 

[WARREN SS]

S-300 systems are operational in Delhi and Mumbai and surely India has enough understanding of their working, efficacy and limitations. Perhaps that's why we have decided to go for S-400.

US has a different doctrine, they rely more on air dominance because they have little threat of invasive missiles and aircraft from their immediate neighbourhood. Overseas deployments have missile defence systems including THAAD deployments in many countries. As you said, they don't need it in their own land. Of course, they have systems to track and defend against ICBMs, because they are the primary or I should say sole military threat to the American mainland.

Our neighbourhood is different. We have two bandits on our immediate doorstep. Warning times are limited and we do not have enough air assets to overwhelm the enemy. In such a case, multiplier systems such as ARSAM, Aakash, BMD and S-400 become extremely important.

If the S-400 system is untested and therefore unreliable, why does US have theirs in a twist at the prospect of India acquiring these systems?

But this is besides the point. The thing is that we will decide what to acquire and what is best for OUR interests. US trying to dictate actions and policies will only serve to create wariness and distrust.

Then why not David sling it's better and I find Israel more reliable than Russian

Look S-400 is compromised the moment it reaches in the hands of Chinese they will do there studies and it will help them to develop countermeasures of ours Systems I bet on that

Russian behavior is doubtful
I don't find them reliable against Chinese as its there main Cash cow

I don't find relevance for wasting money to import BMD when we already have our own in process it will jepordized it like every indegenous program

The problem with 6 billion $ Is, This big amount can be invested in local R&D Research for our own systems like

AAD ,PDV and akash NG we also has Barak-8 ER we are just tested SDFR Sam

 

[Kshithij]

Then why not David sling it's better and I find Israel more reliable than Russian

Look S-400 is compromised the moment it reaches in the hands of Chinese they will do there studies and it will help them to develop countermeasures of ours Systems I bet on that

Russian behavior is doubtful
I don't find them reliable against Chinese as its there main Cash cow

I don't find relevance for wasting money to import BMD when we already have our own in process it will jepordized it like every indegenous program

The problem with 6 billion $ Is, This big amount can be invested in local R&D Research for our own systems like

AAD ,PDV and akash NG we also has Barak-8 ER we are just tested SDFR Sam

Who told you that India is just importing without any ToT? Who told you that china is an enemy of India? Who told you that David Sling is fully owned by Israel and does not have USA's technology and that David's sling is similar to S400?

 

[WARREN SS]

Who told you that India is just importing without any ToT? Who told you that china is an enemy of India? Who told you that David Sling is fully owned by Israel and does not have USA's technology and that David's sling is similar to S400?

Q:Who old you that India is just importing without any ToT?
Ans
A top Russian official told ET that offsets could delay deliveries by as much as two years.

"As far as I have heard, there is no offset package for the programme. It is a strategic project and is very important for the two countries," said Viktor N Kladov, director of international cooperation at Rostec, the Russian state-owned company that controls sales of the S 400 system. "It should not be played around with some offset packages


https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...thout-offset-package/articleshow/57260971.cms

Q Who told you that china is an enemy of India?
Ans
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india/...s-iaf-chief/story-cLGlfjTeBdJbfS6X2vZvrO.html

QWho told you that David Sling is fully owned by Israel and does not have USA's technology and that David's sling is similar to S400??
Ans: what made you think USA made have reservations of exporting it to India do they ?? when it's already offered to us previously

David sling is not similar it's better so are it's detection capibilities

Many of it's components are regulary tested in gaza

 

[WARREN SS]

The David’s Sling Weapon System forms a crucial element of Israel’s multi-tier layered missile defense architecture to provide mid-tier regional missile defense. David’s Sling provides terminal-phase hit-to-kill defense against tactical ballistic missiles, medium- to long-range rockets, enemy planes, drones and cruise missiles, including Scud missiles.

Declared fully operational in 2017, David’s Sling was co-developed by Raytheon and Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. In addition to partnering on the system’s Stunner interceptor, Raytheon produces the system’s missile firing units. Teams in nearly 30 states across the U.S. are dedicated to producing the missile and its firing unit.

David’s Sling is comprised of the multi-pulse Stunner missile, which uses sophisticated sensors and control systems and an active electronically scanned array, or AESA, multi-mission radar for targeting and guidance. Repeated testing has proven the system’s ability to destroy large torrents of high-caliber rockets and short-range ballistic missiles.

Unlike the blast warhead on the Israeli Iron Dome “Tamir” missile, David's Sling's maneuverable, two-stage, hit-to-kill Stunner missile destroys threats through sheer force of impact. The Stunner missile is proven to defeat all short-range ballistic missiles – 92 percent of the worldwide theater ballistic missile threat inventory. Stunner is currently in full-rate production and helps the system to significantly bolster Israel’s key defensive capabilities. It ensures safety for Israel’s infrastructure, way of life, and most importantly its people.

 

[Kshithij]

Q:Who old you that India is just importing without any ToT?
Ans
A top Russian official told ET that offsets could delay deliveries by as much as two years.

"As far as I have heard, there is no offset package for the programme. It is a strategic project and is very important for the two countries," said Viktor N Kladov, director of international cooperation at Rostec, the Russian state-owned company that controls sales of the S 400 system. "It should not be played around with some offset packages


https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...thout-offset-package/articleshow/57260971.cms

Q Who told you that china is an enemy of India?
Ans
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india/...s-iaf-chief/story-cLGlfjTeBdJbfS6X2vZvrO.html

QWho told you that David Sling is fully owned by Israel and does not have USA's technology and that David's sling is similar to S400??
Ans: what made you think USA made have reservations of exporting it to India do they ?? when it's already offered to us previously

David sling is not similar it's better so are it's detection capibilities

Many of it's components are regulary tested in gaza

UPA was a CIA-ISI agent and hence wanted enmity with China. Otherwise, there is no reason to be enemies with China. So, the 2009 article is not good enough

Why do you equate offsets as ToT? Offset means that Russia has to invest in India. India-Russia relation is very deep that there is already lot of Russian infrastructure in India and there is no need for Russian investment in India. I am speaking of technology transfer like license agreements to handover the blueprint of long range interceptor missile for our XR-SAM.

Since you used this sentence:

Then why not David sling it's better and I find Israel more reliable than Russian

I told that David's Sling has USA technology and hence reliability of Israel is irrelevant.

About David's Sling, USA had once objected to Israel selling their greenpine radar. USA had also vetoed the selling of Arrow in 2000s and David's Sling to India in 2010s.

 

[WARREN SS]

UPA was a CIA-ISI agent and hence wanted enmity with China. Otherwise, there is no reason to be enemies with China. So, the 2009 article is not good enough

Why do you equate offsets as ToT? Offset means that Russia has to invest in India. India-Russia relation is very deep that there is already lot of Russian infrastructure in India and there is no need for Russian investment in India. I am speaking of technology transfer like license agreements to handover the blueprint of long range interceptor missile for our XR-SAM.

Since you used this sentence:

Nope it is your opinion that Russians relationship with us is very deep
Look at there Medling with Chinese and Pak

Rather i think they only think India as cash cow

That's why there is OEM clauses in mki deal zero transfer of tot on T-90s other than licence

Second hand overpriced vikrmaditya AC

No deal with Russia in recent times were fruitfull to India


Even though USA was dubious in cold war they at least made our entry into NSG ,MTCR and other groups

Chinese are threat even coas of India army think so that's why it talked about two front war

Look at doklam our CCP activities in NE you will know what I am talking about

USA is not saint but there our best bet against CCP hegemony

 

[WARREN SS]

UPA was a CIA-ISI agent and hence wanted enmity with China. Otherwise, there is no reason to be enemies with China. So, the 2009 article is not good enough

Why do you equate offsets as ToT? Offset means that Russia has to invest in India. India-Russia relation is very deep that there is already lot of Russian infrastructure in India and there is no need for Russian investment in India. I am speaking of technology transfer like license agreements to handover the blueprint of long range interceptor missile for our XR-SAM.

Since you used this sentence:

I told that David's Sling has USA technology and hence reliability of Israel is irrelevant.

About David's Sling, USA had once objected to Israel selling their greenpine radar. USA had also vetoed the selling of Arrow in 2000s and David's Sling to India in 2010s.

Even Apaches and M777 C-130j or C-17 GE404 all are US technology

They offered us Predator drones ,F-18 EMAILS today

2000s are very different from 2018

David sling is not all US technology 90% of the David sling is developed by Rafael system it was purely isreal technology develop from iron dome

US-india relationship is matuered today of what he had during early 2000s or cold war

 

[mayfair]

Then why not David sling it's better and I find Israel more reliable than Russian

Also more susceptible to American pressure since it has US participation in the form of Raytheon. Our deal with Israel for Arrow 2 could not go through, because US denied the clearance for sharing the technology. Isarel needs US Congressional and Pentagon clearance to sell any technology developed with American participation.

Moreover, it is under development.

Look S-400 is compromised the moment it reaches in the hands of Chinese they will do there studies and it will help them to develop countermeasures of ours Systems I bet on that

By that logic we should do away with Su-30 MKIs since not only do Chinese have Su-30 MKKs, but also Su 35, J-11s and J-15, so our entire MKI fleet is compromised. Not to mention Kilo class submarines and also Vikramaditya, since Chinese have also purcahsed two Baku class sister ships of the former Gorshkov.

Russian behavior is doubtful
I don't find them reliable against Chinese as its there main Cash cow

China and India are BOTH cash cows for Russia for a long time to come. They will sell to both as long as they can, as any smart businessman would do.

I don't find relevance for wasting money to import BMD when we already have our own in process it will jepordized it like every indegenous program

The problem with 6 billion $ Is, This big amount can be invested in local R&D Research for our own systems like

AAD ,PDV and akash NG we also has Barak-8 ER we are just tested SDFR Sam

I agree. Our long term interests lie in self-sufficiency. S-400 will COMPLEMENT our existing systems including BMD. It is meant to fulfill our immediate needs. In the long term we will have to go for BMD I & II and PDV along with other systems. No doubt about it.

 

[Kshithij]

Nope it your opinion that Russians relationship with us our very deep
Look at there Medling with Chinese and Pak

Rather i think they only think India as cash cow

That's why there is OEM clauses in mki deal tot on T-90s other than licence

Second hand overpriced vikrmaditya

No deal with Russia in recent times were fruitfull to us


Even though USA was dubious in cold war they at least made our entry into NSG ,MTCR and other groups

Chinese are threat even coas of India army think so that's why it talked about two front war

Look at doklam our CCP activities in NE you will know what I am talking about

USA is not sait but there our best bet against CCP hegemony

Chinese actions are because China looks at India as stooge of USA who is troubling China by unnecessarily stoking Tibet issue and Dalai Lama. Now, India has agreed to sideline Dalai Lama and china will not bother us again.

USA is always dubious. They were never reasonable. India got into MTCR as India already had all the missile technology and because Russia gave technology like cryogenic engine, brahmos etc regardless of MTCR. MTCR was only a formality. India did not get admission into NSG. No matter what Turkey will not consent. USA knows this and hence acts like a saint.

Russia has give ToT to both India and China and it wants India - china - Russia alliance against the west. Russia is not playing India against china the way USA is.

. It is meant to fulfill our immediate needs.

India has no immediate needs. Akash missile has high enough range to destroy most of the aerial target. Akash missile weighs 720kg and its range is falsely said as 30km. So, S400 will involve some technology transfer

China and India are BOTH cash cows for Russia for a long time to come. They will sell to both as long as they can, as any smart businessman would do.

China and India were never cash cows by allies against the west. Only in 1990s when USSR collapsed, Russia was in desperate need for foreign exchange and hence took needed help from India and CHina. That was only during the period between 1991-2000. After that, with oil price rising, Russian economy also improved.

Now, Russia is a major supplier of oil, gas & minerals

 

[WARREN SS]

India as stooge of USA who is troubling China by unnecessarily stoking Tibet issue and Dalai Lama. Now, India has agreed to sideline Dalai Lama and china will not bother us again.

USA is always dubious. They were never reasonable. India got into MTCR as India already had all the missile technology and because Russia gave technology like cryogenic engine, brahmos etc regardless of MTCR. MTCR was only a formality. India did not get admission into NSG. No matter what Turkey will not consent. USA knows this and hence acts like a saint.

Russia has give ToT to both India and China and it wants India - china - Russia alliance against the west. Russia is not playing India against china the way USA is.

Chinese think india stooge lol how its related them calling arunachal south tibet

Why they have reservations of development in NE states since all know its Indian territory to Begin with

You think think they don't have hegemonic designs for Arunachal or they are not supporting Insurgency in NE state

Are you blind or that multiple time Cheif's of Army ,Navy and IAF depicted China as india's biggest threat

You are casting shadow over that

All these organization have US supremacy

We got NSG wavier due to US efforts in 2008 which unique even though we have tested. Nukes in 1998

We don't getting NSG entrance due to Chinese objection multiple times

Multiple times they veto are move against
Jaish and Hafiz saheed in UNSC

If you are too blind to see Chinese hegemonic designs here it is your call not mine

 

[WARREN SS]

By that logic we should do away with Su-30 MKIs since not only do Chinese have Su-30 MKKs, but also Su 35, J-11s and J-15, so our entire MKI fleet is compromised. Not to mention Kilo class submarines and also Vikramaditya, since Chinese have also purcahsed two Baku class sister ships of the former Gorshkov.

Yes that's why we changed our policy

That's the main reason we are gone for Rafale for that matter all western planes
And equipment

Look at all recent procurement in Last 10-12 years

There is no major procurement from Russia

Rather MoD is looking more Eurpeon and US partner for MII than any Russian firms

Russion Monopoly in Indian procurement will we End in next 10 years I can bet on that

 

[Samsung J7]

Did we tested this equipment and validated their claims? Are simply giving billions to remain in good book of Russians?

This is pantsir1 in Syria

 

[Kshithij]

Chinese think india stooge lol how its related them calling arunachal south tibet

Why they have reservations of development in NE states since all know its Indian territory to Begin with

You think think they don't have hegemonic designs for Arunachal or they are not supporting Insurgency in NE state

Are you blind or that multiple time Cheif's of Army ,Navy and IAF depicted China as india's biggest threat

You are casting shadow over that

All these organization have US supremacy

We got NSG wavier due to US efforts in 2008 which unique even though we have tested. Nukes in 1998

We don't getting NSG entrance due to Chinese objection multiple times

Multiple times they veto are move against
Jaish and Hafiz saheed in UNSC

If you are too blind to see Chinese hegemonic designs here it is your call not mine

I have told you that India hosting Tibet govt in exile is what makes China angry. If India gives up that China will not cause trouble. India started troubling CHina under Nehru, not other way around.

USA gave NSG waiver in return for putting lot of Indian reactors under safeguards. India had sufficient Uranium to run them and could have produced large quantity of plutonium. But UPA was treasonous and put these reactors under safeguards.

Also, the USA interest in Afghanistan is being troubled by Pakistan and hence USA is changing its stance against Pakistan. Otherwise, these very Hafiz was pampered by USA in late 1990s and 2000s

 

[Kshithij]

Pantsir-1 is an ancient system. They were technology of pre-supercomputing era. Supercomputing started in 1990 and boomed by 1995. Pantsir used 1980s technology with some modernisation but is not enough to be called robust

Do you think India buys random equipment without testing it? Who gives billions to be in good books? That would be if the deal was with USA. Russia is not a mercantile state

Did we tested this equipment and validated their claims? Are simply giving billions to remain in good book of Russians?

This is pantsir1 in Syria

 

[nongaddarliberal]

S-400 for that matter S-300 are never tested in real war situation while

Patriot has has tested many times in many wars results are we published so when you say they are fucking joke then it's you that only laughing here

Now USA never need a land based anti aircraft system like S-400 because it has no credibile threat for air invasion for that matter amphibious assault

That's why it's deployed it's most credible missiles system Aegis missle defence which also a ASAT on only way you can invade USA by water

They don't made because they don't needed not because they can't

Remember USA is only nation in this world which has over 400+ operational 5th generation fighters while others are still struggling with prototype

No one disputes that the US has the capability to make something like the S400. But when they didn't bother to make one because they don't need it, then they can't go around lecturing countries who do buy the s400 rather than American land based systems.

 

[mayfair]

Yes that's why we changed our policy

That's the main reason we are gone for Rafale for that matter all western planes
And equipment

Not exactly. We've always had Western jets and helicopters in our inventory from Hawker Hunter to Dassault Mystere to Folland Gnat to Specat Jaguar to Sea Harriers to Mirage 2000. Alouette (Chetak) still remains the one of the most abundant helicopters in Indian service.

There was a dominance of Soviet/Russian wares because they were ridiculously cheap (Soviet Union friendship prices) when compared with Western jets. For instance, a MiG 21 in 1960s was supplied to us at Rs. 10 lakh a piece, where as a comparable Western jet would cost crores. For a poor country it mattered, plus there were less chances of the fleet being grounded due to sanctions as it happened with some when US stopped supplying weapons and spares during the 1965 war.

We went for Rafale for the reason that it was superior to all other planes in the category and our good experience with Mirage 2000s. However, the jets are ridiculously expensive and we do not have the budget to induct them in huge numbers all at once. Apart from Rafale, there's no other Western combat jet that we are purusing- SE saga notwithstanding. Rather we have realised that the way ahead is indigenisation and self-sufficiency.

We are going for whichever product gives us the best value for money. Do remember, we continue to procure Mi 17V for our fleet, because there's no comparable Western equivalent. Then we have signed a deal for Ka- 226 as well.

Regarding partnerships, Russia remains the only partner in the development of Arihant and Arihant class SSNs. No other country has shown any interest in helping us out with it, though if some reports are to be believed some khusar-phusar is going on with France over Barracuda class submarines.

Russian monopoly may well end, but it should end because of our increasing self-sufficiency and not because we trade Russian monopoly for a Western one.

 

[Immanuel]

I have told you that India hosting Tibet govt in exile is what makes China angry. If India gives up that China will not cause trouble. India started troubling CHina under Nehru, not other way around.

USA gave NSG waiver in return for putting lot of Indian reactors under safeguards. India had sufficient Uranium to run them and could have produced large quantity of plutonium. But UPA was treasonous and put these reactors under safeguards.

Also, the USA interest in Afghanistan is being troubled by Pakistan and hence USA is changing its stance against Pakistan. Otherwise, these very Hafiz was pampered by USA in late 1990s and 2000s

Please, this is a nonsense narrative, hosting Tibet Govt. in exile as a reason is one of many reasons. To think China has anything but destabilizing desires for India is stupidity. IAF gears itself for a two front war, IA does too, IN is pushing for heavy capability to take the war to China when needed. Chinese are sitting all over POK, they are actively helping in Paki strengthening efforts both militarily and economically far more than any other country right now. Weapons like NASR, Babur are essentially repainted Chinese shit. China also supports several militancies in NE. The several surgical strikes in Myanmar also had several active Chinese intel officers who were killed and our men found high end Chinese eves dropping & listening gear, they had a small scale listening post. Such kit was intrumental in tracking & ambushing the patrol that killed 18 ghataks.

If India were to make a full scale frontal assault anywhere in POK today, they'll probably run into joint PLA & Pak teams. Heck PLA intel and some SF teams are active as advisors in POK.

So don't peddle things which aren't true, fact is there is a deep Master-Slave relation between Chi-Pak and in any full scale conflict with Pak you'll probably have the Chinks doing the overall strategy and command while they get the beggars to fight.

 

[Indibomber]

UPA was a CIA-ISI agent and hence wanted enmity with China. Otherwise, there is no reason to be enemies with China. So, the 2009 article is not good enough

If you trust Doval listen to him from 4:24 onwards
China is, was and will remain an enemy.