India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[pankaj nema]

Guys, previously there was discussion on the lines of splitting the order namely F 18 and ..... (fill in the blanks). With Europe under financial debts, does this scenario can be played by GoI. They can buy Rafale for SFC, can give them order of 40 required as of now with future options, and go to EF way for the MRCA. By initially keeping the numbers to 126. In this way we can drive hard bargain towards getting the techs we need.

PS: Just a thought that came to my mind.

The cost of buying Both would be prohibitively expensive

And suppose we buy 40 or 60 Rafales then it would be off the shelf

Licence production would be ruled out This further increases the cost

We are getting licence production and offsets advantage because of the huge number
involved ie 180 plane order

Secondly Su 34 bomber for SFC was being promoted by the Russians

Three TOP end aircraft ie MMRCA ; FGFA Su 30 MKI are enough for the next 30 years

 

[p2prada]

I would say that the F-22 will be outgunned in the Stealth mode IF IT IS DETECTED by the other two. In the Non-stealth mode it will be a close fight.

There is a limit to how many missiles can be shot in an engagement. All the above aircraft are air superiority aircraft. They all carry large stores of BVR and all three can engage targets from BVR ranges, they will get closer only if the situation requires them to.

Such aircraft need to have a lot of missiles along with a lot of fuel for air denial or air superiority missions. So, yes in terms of how many missiles can be carried the conventional aircraft have an obvious advantage. But people forget that with an increase in number of missiles there is an increase in RCS, this could be between 5 and 50 times the clean RCS. So, while the MKI has the largest RCS and followed by the EF, the F-22 in stealth mode will still be unseen while the F-22 can see both aircraft from stand off ranges.

It is imperative that the aircraft needs to continue tracking the enemy in order to provide mid course updates to the missile fired. This is where the F-22 has a major advantage. In the confusion the F-22 can disappear much more easily than an aircraft with 8 missiles while providing mid course updates.

A Hit isn't guaranteed. In the real world an AMRAAM could have a 30% hit probability against a fighter type target while it is 90%+ against a non maneuvering target drone. This makes BVR engagement very complex. It isn't fire and forget and it is a stupid term anyway. With larger weapons loads you can fire 2 missiles to increase kill probability. Akash SAM has a 98% hit probability against a drone when ripple fired with 2 missiles.

Maneuverability is extremely important in BVR engagements when both aircraft have similar weapons like the AMRAAM and AMRAAMski. Now a clean F-22 will show higher maneuverability because of lesser drag while it is lesser with EF and MKI when carrying external weapons.

In the end the F-22 still has the biggest advantages in supercruise, super maneuverability and stealth as compared to the EF and MKI.

The F-22 isn't invulnerable if the enemy has 5th gen electronics and counter measures on a 4th gen platform. But against everything else, as of now, it is invulnerable. So, the EF and MKI can think about beating the F-22 only after the upgrades are carried out.

In non stealth mode the advantage still lies with the F-22 because it has higher thrust than the other two. Even with external weapons stores the F-22 will have a smaller RCS than the other two. So, that advantage is with the F-22 as well. In non stealth mode, one of them may run away after expending a few missiles. It goes either way as long as it is not imperative the aircraft has to stay.

 

[Koovie]

Lol according to this BS all our current (Su 30 MKIs + Mig 29s) and possible future aircrafts (Rafale) are completely useless against f 22

 

[nitesh]

Well This is not good for Rafale:

AIRSHOW-UPDATE 1-Rafale warplane deal stalled, UAE says proposal 'unworkable'

 

[nitesh]

The cost of buying Both would be prohibitively expensive

And suppose we buy 40 or 60 Rafales then it would be off the shelf

Licence production would be ruled out This further increases the cost

We are getting licence production and offsets advantage because of the huge number
involved ie 180 plane order

Secondly Su 34 bomber for SFC was being promoted by the Russians

Three TOP end aircraft ie MMRCA ; FGFA Su 30 MKI are enough for the next 30 years

Pankaj, we can ask French to deliver in some other way, let them build the planes, but let them part away with some techs we need in other arena. Well i agree on the cost part, but I think that can be negotiated to a mutual agreeable value.

 

[weg]

A Rafale order, however, was seen by the Emirati authorities as a political favor requested by Paris for domestic reasons.

"This is not a requirement," a Gulf source familiar with the talks said. "It was pushed as a political purchase."

Emirati authorities are unhappy with what they see as French industry's failure to "understand the political nature" of the deal.

That has led deep dissatisfaction in the United Arab Emirates with the entire package, including the terms, specifications and price.

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.

The United Arab Emirates has responded by issuing a request for proposal to Britain for the Typhoon, following an Oct. 17 briefing on the combat aircraft built by the Eurofighter consortium. Emirati officials had already requested information for the Boeing F-15 and F-18, as well as the Lockheed Martin F-16.

"This is now an open competition," the Gulf source said. "It is going to take months to go through the offers and compare the data."

UAE Declines France's Rafale Deal - Defense News

They have blown it.

 

[pankaj nema]

UAE is a complete US lackey cum slave cum side kick

There is no way that US is NOT involved in this mischief

After all US too wants its F 16 F 18 factories to be busy and JOBS to be saved

 

[SpArK]

Sad day for Rafale fans.

 

[p2prada]

You never buy French directly. They will rip you off. Always Tenders. If Mirage-2000 upgrade costs $40Million each for a new radar and some EW equipment and assorted stuff then a new plane needs to be multiplied by 4.

 

[ace009]

There is a limit to how many missiles can be shot in an engagement. All the above aircraft are air superiority aircraft. They all carry large stores of BVR and all three can engage targets from BVR ranges, they will get closer only if the situation requires them to.

Such aircraft need to have a lot of missiles along with a lot of fuel for air denial or air superiority missions. So, yes in terms of how many missiles can be carried the conventional aircraft have an obvious advantage. But people forget that with an increase in number of missiles there is an increase in RCS, this could be between 5 and 50 times the clean RCS. So, while the MKI has the largest RCS and followed by the EF, the F-22 in stealth mode will still be unseen while the F-22 can see both aircraft from stand off ranges.

It is imperative that the aircraft needs to continue tracking the enemy in order to provide mid course updates to the missile fired. This is where the F-22 has a major advantage. In the confusion the F-22 can disappear much more easily than an aircraft with 8 missiles while providing mid course updates.

A Hit isn't guaranteed. In the real world an AMRAAM could have a 30% hit probability against a fighter type target while it is 90%+ against a non maneuvering target drone. This makes BVR engagement very complex. It isn't fire and forget and it is a stupid term anyway. With larger weapons loads you can fire 2 missiles to increase kill probability. Akash SAM has a 98% hit probability against a drone when ripple fired with 2 missiles.

Maneuverability is extremely important in BVR engagements when both aircraft have similar weapons like the AMRAAM and AMRAAMski. Now a clean F-22 will show higher maneuverability because of lesser drag while it is lesser with EF and MKI when carrying external weapons.

In the end the F-22 still has the biggest advantages in supercruise, super maneuverability and stealth as compared to the EF and MKI.

The F-22 isn't invulnerable if the enemy has 5th gen electronics and counter measures on a 4th gen platform. But against everything else, as of now, it is invulnerable. So, the EF and MKI can think about beating the F-22 only after the upgrades are carried out.

In non stealth mode the advantage still lies with the F-22 because it has higher thrust than the other two. Even with external weapons stores the F-22 will have a smaller RCS than the other two. So, that advantage is with the F-22 as well. In non stealth mode, one of them may run away after expending a few missiles. It goes either way as long as it is not imperative the aircraft has to stay.

Nice post, all probably relevant - but it does not mean "better firepower" - better aircraft with better avionics and sensors, better engine for sure - but that is expected from a fighter (F-22) a generation haead of the others (MKI and EF). But as I mentioned before, "better firepower" would be either "more" missiles or with better range or better missile technology etc.

 

[p2prada]

Nice post, all probably relevant - but it does not mean "better firepower" - better aircraft with better avionics and sensors, better engine for sure - but that is expected from a fighter (F-22) a generation haead of the others (MKI and EF). But as I mentioned before, "better firepower" would be either "more" missiles or with better range or better missile technology etc.

If you are looking at it right now, then the Aim-120D is a better missile as compared to Mica or R-77. In the future the Meteor and R-77M will surpass the Aim-120D, but there is no saying what the Americans will come up next. Perhaps an Aim-120E with ramjet and an extended range.

It is the sensors suite and stealth that allows the F-22 to have superior firepower. They all complement each other.

A B-1R with 20 AMRAAMS has the numbers advantage in firepower, but a single F-22 can still kill it using only guns.

 

[ace009]

If you are looking at it right now, then the Aim-120D is a better missile as compared to Mica or R-77. In the future the Meteor and R-77M will surpass the Aim-120D, but there is no saying what the Americans will come up next. Perhaps an Aim-120E with ramjet and an extended range.

It is the sensors suite and stealth that allows the F-22 to have superior firepower. They all complement each other.

A B-1R with 20 AMRAAMS has the numbers advantage in firepower, but a single F-22 can still kill it using only guns.

So, what's your point? Stealth and sensors always win? If that is the case, I wonder why the USA decided to redesign and build the F-35 rather than develop along F-22. Clearly the F-35 is not in the leagues of the F-22 stealth OR sensor wise. Even weapons load, avionics and maneuverability is not nearly there.
The clear reason is price, maintenance and "doing the job" - i.e. can it fly, detect and shoot reasonably well? If it can then it's a killer - right? Same for the JF-17, the MMRCA, the MKI, LCA or anything else.

 

[Immanuel]

UAE is a complete US lackey cum slave cum side kick

There is no way that US is NOT involved in this mischief

After all US too wants its F 16 F 18 factories to be busy and JOBS to be saved

well US involvement isn't surely mischief. UAE has been trying to buy Rafale for a long long time. Just shows that the French just suck at trying to convince them to buy. UAE asked for upgrades, France pulled out a hefty bill for such upgrades. Rafale cost per flight hour is much higher and not to mention the high unit flyaway cost, furthermore, the weapons package from France are also hefty. Over a long time, continued BS from the French has lead to Rafale being dropped. Besides a few advantages in airframe, lower rcs, and few good avionics, range and higher payload, Block 60 is just as capable of meeting combat requirements with better combat proven weapons, combat proven avionics and continued good after sales service at a much lower cost. Now that EF and F-18SH are also in the fray, UAE will end up buying one of the US fighters after ordering more block 60s. Due to higher production volumes for weapons, aircraft and proven after sales service, lower cost of life cycle operations, better upgrade paths, the US is well in place to win UAE contracts.

 

[Immanuel]

Actually in terms of sensors like IRST, SAR mapping and other ground related avionics F-35 is miles ahead of the F22. The F-22 due to its sensors can dominate an airspace of over 1000 km, which F-35 with DAS alone can spot missiles being laucnhed from 1200km away. F-35 falls behind the Raptor in kinematics, stealth, payload, range and A2A roles but in all other areas, it can play toe to toe with the F-22 and in certain areas its sensors out perform anything available on the planet at the moment.

 

[weg]

UAE is a complete US lackey cum slave cum side kick

There is no way that US is NOT involved in this mischief

I doubt it. This was given to the French on a plate and they refused to give a reasonable price. Remember this is not the first time the French have screwed up a order on price.

AIRSHOW-UPDATE 3-UAE says Rafale proposal 'unworkable'


Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:46am EST

* Dassault proposal described as uncompetitive

* UAE spoke to Eurofighter, Boeing over fighter jets

* Keen interest in arms in Gulf region

By Reed Stevenson and Praveen Menon

DUBAI, Nov 16 (Reuters) - A long-awaited French deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale warplanes to the United Arab Emirates hit a new snag on Wednesday when the Arab country's crown prince said proposed terms were "uncompetitive and unworkable".

The deal, which had been in the works since 2008, was thrown into doubt earlier this week when it became clear that the world's fourth-largest oil exporter had asked for details of a rival aircraft, the Typhoon built by the Eurofighter consortium.

"Thanks to President (Nicolas) Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy of the country's armed forces, said in a statement, adding that Sarkozy's "personal intervention in this process has sustained Dassault at the forefront of our considerations."

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.

Officials at Dassault Aviation, which builds the Rafale, declined to comment.

A government source close to the deal blamed the current impasse on the "arrogance" of Dassault, despite French military officials saying they were confident about securing a deal and hopes of finalising the sale at the Dubai Air Show.

"There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault," the source said.

"Rather than using the strength of the bilateral relationship to close the deal out they are attempting to use it to hold out on pricing and a deal structure that hasn't changed in more than a year and that has been significantly bettered by all competitors."

The United Arab Emirates and its Gulf neighbours share the West's concerns that Iran is using its nuclear energy programme to develop weapons, a charge Tehran has denied. Saudi Arabia inked a deal for U.S. arms worth nearly $60 billion a year ago.

The UAE is also in talks to buy Lockheed Martin's Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, or THAAD, an advanced missile defence system.

The two deals, for the air defence and new combat planes, could be worth as much as $17 billion.

COMPETITORS SMELL OPPORTUNITY

France said earlier this week it was still confident of striking a first export deal for the Rafale and Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said Paris remained in the final stage of talks.

French air force chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros told Reuters the Emirates air force was "very keen with Rafale".

Yet after news of Eurofighter's pitch emerged, the deal appeared to be blown open to greater competition, including from Boeing's fighter jets.

The company said it had briefed UAE officials recently on its F-15 and F-18 combat planes.

"We have not responded to a detailed set of requirements or anything like that. We have been asked for information on both platforms (F-15 and F-18)," Paul Oliver, its vice-president for Middle East & Africa, International business development, Defence, Space & Security, told Reuters in an interview.

"We have provided, through the U.S. government, information on these platforms. We have been providing information off and on for over a year."

Discussions between the UAE and Dassault were nearly derailed a year ago when Boeing was first asked for technical information on its warplanes.

France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the Rafale, which is more developed than fourth-generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth-generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.

The UAE has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.

Both the Rafale and Typhoon warplanes were used in Libya during NATO operations that helped topple Muammar Gaddafi.

The Eurofighter is built by Britain's BAE Systems, Finmeccanica of Italy and European aerospace group EADS on behalf of Germany and Spain.

Boeing, however, said there was increasing local interest in its combat jets.

"There has been interest in the region. We have a couple of other customers who have expressed interest in the F-18 (apart from UAE)," said Boeing's Oliver. "They don't talk to me about competitors... but it is the big news of the airshow. I believe the UAE is looking at all their options."

AIRSHOW-UPDATE 3-UAE says Rafale proposal 'unworkable' | Reuters

 

[weg]

Now that EF and F-18SH are also in the fray, UAE will end up buying one of the US fighters after ordering more block 60s.

Probably, however they have only asked EF for a proposal and Saudi seems to be going for EF and not F-15's so they may want to do the same.

 

[sukhish]

weg,
same thing for india, India has already given an order of mirage 2000 jets to france, I don't they will this order to french. this is going the EF way.
french can keep there superior exotic things to themselves.

 

[mayfair]

Since the initial order is expected to ramp upto to 200-220 fighter jets, what is the likelihood that we split them down the middle 100-120 each for Rafale and Typhoon.

The pluses could be
1. We get the best of both worlds- one of the best Air superiority and Air to surface fighters in the world and the accompanying technologies, which should have cascading benefits of their own
2. We get strategic tie ups with 5 nations, 2 of which happen to be UNSC permanent members
3. Since the two aircraft cost roughly the same, the price differential should not be that much compared to buying 220 of either type.
4. We preclude either the Europeans or the French from selling to China (or Pakis for that matter)
5. We get a wider array of weapon systems and and ensure cross compatibility
6. The complementary nature of the two systems would bring a much needed boost to the ability of IAF to hold its own in case of a two front war over diverse terrain.

The possible negatives
1. Logistical nightmare. Not sure if HAL has the ability or the infrastructure ti set up two independent production lines. Not to mention IAF will have its hands full with reconciling the potpourri of our fighter inventory
2. Life cycle costs may go up and it may be nightmare to negotiate with two different manufacturers for ToT, mid life upgrades, spares, weapon systems etc.
3. Contrary to previous assumption, the cost of 110+110 EF+Rafale may turn out to be much higher than 220 of either kind
4. Europeans and French may still sell to China and Pakis
5. The ToT may have redundant areas which would render the whole exercise not so beneficial- one option would be to ensure minimum overlaps in ToT and if there is any, go for the best one and extract something in lieu from the other party.
6. It may encourage European cartelisation- after all having the ability to influence a substantial portion of our combat fleet will come with a leverage of its own. Politico-Economic-Strategic implications are difficult to predict.

 

[ace009]

Actually in terms of sensors like IRST, SAR mapping and other ground related avionics F-35 is miles ahead of the F22. The F-22 due to its sensors can dominate an airspace of over 1000 km, which F-35 with DAS alone can spot missiles being laucnhed from 1200km away. F-35 falls behind the Raptor in kinematics, stealth, payload, range and A2A roles but in all other areas, it can play toe to toe with the F-22 and in certain areas its sensors out perform anything available on the planet at the moment.

The DAS mentioned there has yet to be proven on a F-35 - there were significant problems associated with it. The same DAS can be put on the F-22 too.
Still, the AESA in F-35 will NOT match the F-22 and overall the F-35 is nowhere near the Raptor.

 

[weg]

4. Europeans and French may still sell to China and Pakis

I'd say there is nil chance the French/Europeans would sell to China no matter how the contract goes.

EU bans arms sales to China
The U.K.'s position remains exactly as it has been over the last few years, which is now is not the right time to lift the ban

The French may sell to Pakistan (they had no problem supplying both sides in the Iran-Iraq war) regardless. The Germans in particular are fussy about selling to dictators who would use them against a democracy, but the four countries together would have so many issues that Pakistan is probably never a market for the EF.