India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

The final call! Show your support. Who do you think should Win?

  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 66 51.2%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 63 48.8%

  • Total voters
    129
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p2prada

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P2P ARMs in A2A role are there right. AIM 7 , R27
Yes. But they are so old. There are two versions of R-27 called R-27P and R-27EM which fit the bill. Certain versions of Aim-7 as well. However they were both originally air to air missiles and modified seekers allowed them to seek land based targets. The ARM variant on Aim-7 was called Brazo.

Even K-100 is capable of HARM type activities, like Home on Jam, but this is better used to target AWACS, EW aircraft and AEW helis. But hitting a surface target will need a lot of design changes.

Now we have dedicated ARM missiles which target land based installations and defences which are difficult to beat due to the huge difference in processing capability and power that large land based defences have. A2A missiles won't be enough for this purpose. But A2A missiles with home on jam and semi active seekers have similar features as ARMs.
 

Zebra

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German State-Owned Bank Seeks To Buy EADS Shares

By ALBRECHT MÃœLLER
Published: 10 Nov 2011 17:30

BONN - The German state-owned business development bank KfW wants to take over a 7.5 percent share in EADS from the 15 percent stake owned by Daimler, the Department of Commerce said.

The German car manufacturer currently owns 15 percent, and in addition, executes the voting rights for another 7.5 percent as part of a consortium. For some years now, the company has been trying to get rid of all of its shares in EADS and concentrate on the automotive business.


The transaction is complicated because of the sophisticated shareholder structure of EADS. To secure an even balance of power and an equal representation of interests, Germany and France each hold, via private investors or government funds, a 22.5 percent share.

Recently, Daimler had increased pressure on the German government to help it shed its shares. While the office of the conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel reportedly supports the KfW deal, the economics department, headed by the Liberal Democrats, is opposed. Being unable to find a private investor and the fear that France could wind up with a greater share seems to have ruled in favor of a public investment.

There have been no negotiations about the price yet, but at the moment, the shares have a market value of between 1.2 billion euros ($1.62 billion) and 1.3 billion euros.

According to Dutch corporate laws, Germany also would have to make an offer for the other 7.5 percent of shares held by Daimler, but France would have the right of pre-emption. These questions are supposed to have been cleared intergovernmental and the changes into the Dutch rights to take over do not come into effect until July 2012.

Daimler will keep its remaining 7.5 percent beyond 2013. The other 7.5 percent, in which it has voting rights, has already been stored with a group of public and private banks, among which is KfW. That contract runs until the end of 2012.

According to the newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, there is speculation about whether KfW will also take over these shares.

German State-Owned Bank Seeks To Buy EADS Shares - Defense News

*****

If India selects ET as MRCA , can we ask EADS's shares for any Indian company ?

Companies like RIL , Tata , L & T or HAL can join with the help of GoI . :scared1:
 

Armand2REP

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Go ahead and buy German shares, then France will own EADS. :laugh:
 

nrj

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Why would Germany allow Indians to buy its shares?
 

SpArK

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Fighter bid like no other
- European rivals sit at long table as offers are read out














New Delhi, Nov. 12: The only military wing headquartered outside South Block in the capital's Raisina Hill is the Indian Air Force. A squat multi-storeyed block, the Vayu Sena Bhavan is marked out by a scrapped fighter aircraft mounted on a pillar, its nose skywards as if it were soaring.


Visitors are allowed in only on invitation and after they are frisked, the irises of their eyes checked biometrically to confirm their identities.


Foreigners are rarely allowed into the building and even civilians must have their backgrounds investigated for permission to enter.


Last week, half-a-dozen Europeans were let into the building after going through security and escorted to the fifth floor where they were sat down at the end of a long table in a conference room adjacent to Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne's office.

The Europeans were from two firms, EADS Cassidian and France's Dassault Aviation. In one of the world's largest defence contracts that is hotly contested, Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault's Rafale fighter jets have been shortlisted.


When their executives were invited last week, it was for the opening of the financial bids. The meeting was convened by joint secretary (air) R.K. Ghosh, the "acquisitions manager" for the IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme, the exercise to procure 126 fighter jets, an order that may be expanded to 200.


For both EADS and Dassault — as it would be for any other firm — European giants struggling to keep their assembly lines (and thousands of jobs) intact — the IAF order will mean a guarantee for years.


For India and its air force, the MMRCA is the single largest defence contract it would sign. When the Request for Proposals (RFP) was sent out in 2007, the value of the contract was estimated to be Rs 42,000 crore or $10 billion.




The order could now well go up to $20 billion, or double the estimate, accounting for cost and forex fluctuations. The spotlight on A.K. Antony's defence establishment in going through with the acquisition, therefore, is so much sharper.


Not only have Indian defence acquisitions been plagued by allegations of bribery and unaccounted commissions (or kickbacks), the last time a Congress government signed a comparable deal (for 410 Bofors howitzers in 1987), it cost Rajiv Gandhi his prime ministership.


Minutes after the Europeans were sat down at the end of the conference table, the acquisitions manager asked for a metal box containing the financial bids to be brought in. They were asked to confirm that the box was locked. They did. The box was then opened. It contained bundles of papers that the competitors had submitted, each trying to outdo the other to emerge as L1 – the lowest bidder.


The seals on the envelopes were broken after they confirmed that their bids were genuine.

"It was like nothing I had seen in India before," one of the men present in the room told The Telegraph. He had attended bid-openings before.


"They were always like casual and regulation stuff. But here there were people seated around the long table, each was asked to identify himself, and there were placards with our names on the table and we had designated seats and everything was on the record," he recalled.


The Typhoon and the Rafale, both twin-engine fighter jets – seen in action over Libya most recently -- that claim to be in the four-plus generation of aircraft, were shortlisted after 643-point technical and flight evaluation tests by the IAF through 2009 and 2010.


The aircraft were tested over the desert in Rajasthan, at Hindustan Aeronautics' Bangalore establishment and at the high-altitude airfield in Leh, Ladakh. Then IAF test pilots flew the aircraft in their countries of origin to test their weapons' capabilities in air-to-air and air-to-ground combat.


The tests eliminated the F-16 Super Viper IN and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, made by US firms Lockheed Martin and Boeing; the Gripen NG made by Swedish firm Saab and the Russian MiG-35.


In so doing, India was risking a growing defence relationship with the US. After months during which US envoys to India said there was "an expectation" of the contract being awarded to US firms as a thanksgiving for the civilian-nuclear deal, the Pentagon and the US government were bitterly disappointed.


A day before the bids were opened in that fifth-floor conference room in New Delhi, the Pentagon presented a report to the US Congress, expressing its regret over losing the deal yet again and also offering to "share information" with India on its F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter programme, an aircraft that is a generation ahead of the competitors for the MMRCA programme.


For the IAF, not only was that proposal "too late", it was also seen as an effort to queer the pitch when it was two-thirds of the way through the acquisition process.


"It was the Pentagon talking to the US Congress. It wasn't Vayu Sena Bhavan talking to South Block," said one officer, underlining that the Pentagon's offer had little relevance to the MMRCA programme at this stage.


The F-35 certainly did not figure around that long table where 13 officials from the defence ministry, the IAF, Hindustan Aeronautics and the Defence Research and Development Organisation who make up the contract negotiation committee for the MMRCA programme briefed the Europeans on the process to be followed.


The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.


"There is no such thing as a sticker price," said one officer. "You don't buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo."



He explained why it could take up to six weeks – may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. "It's a price for the whole package," he said.


For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India's Parliament Street branch on November 4.


The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the "unit flyaway cost", the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased "off the shelf".


M2 asks for the lifecycle costs – the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours – of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).



M3 is "operational cost". M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a "mean time between failures" (MTBF), and lubricants.


M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.


The formula for computing the costs has an escalation cost, net present value and discounted cash flow built into it, a financial expert said.


Air force officers, however, worry that formulae have a way of getting disrupted in the acquisition process because they get complicated by the pressures of diplomacy and/or under-the-table processes. On the other hand, they also say that if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal. Compounding all of this is the IAF's dire necessity for the aircraft as it stretches its assets – such as the outdated MiG 21 that make up a bulk of its inventory -- well beyond their prescribed lifespan.


Eurofighter's chief executive officer Bernhardt Gerwert is on record as having said that the four countries that make up the EADS consortium – Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy – had "offered to make India a partner country" with an assurance of steady equation with the four top west European countries.


France's President, Nicolas Sarkozy, pushing Dassault's bid with the Rafale, has extended repeated invitations to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh – who was in Paris for the G20 last week -- and had hosted India as the chief guest at the Bastille Day celebrations, a signal moment for the Indian armed forces when they marched down the Champs-Elysees at the head of the parade.

France is also banking on traditional relations – it supplied the frontline Mirage 2000 aircraft – with the IAF.


In Vayu Sena Bhavan where the airforce wants to insulate itself from the politics of handing out an estimated $20 billion, the search for that precise formula is still on.



Fighter bid like no other
 

Zebra

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Why would Germany allow Indians to buy its shares?


if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal.

Eurofighter's chief executive officer Bernhardt Gerwert is on record as having said that the four countries that make up the EADS consortium – Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy – had "offered to make India a partner country" with an assurance of steady equation with the four top west European countries.

Fighter bid like no other


If I am not wrong , there are few shipyards in Europe , owned by non European companies .

The same way if it possible ..... we must try .

We must add some thing more , not only political and diplomatic mileage , but partnership - in terms of having

the share of the company also .

any way , it's my thought , may be few people do not agree with it .
 
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ace009

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A "partnership" in a program does not necessitate a shareholder partnership. Unless an Indian private company wants to be involved in military aircraft development, what will India do with EADS or Dassault shares? The GoI or the MoD cannot own the shares - it is unconstitutional for the Indian government to hold foreign shares. A PSU can, but the only two PSUs involved in aircraft manufacturing are HAL and NAL. of the two NAL is too small and too inconsequential to provide any value. As for HAL, considering GoI is looking to privatise it (and almost all of us agree), buying shares into EADS/ Dassault may or may not be a good idea. The upside being the shareholder maybe access to technology (doubtful), the downside being spending a lot of money without any real value.
 

Kunal Biswas

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[h=3]Rafale Reportedly Has Lower Costs, Indian Media Say [/h]
India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed.

For all its promises of "full transparency" in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract to acquire 126 fighters, likely to be the single biggest defence deal in the run-up to the 2014 polls with its overall value set to exceed $20 billion, the defence ministry refused to say anything concrete.

Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.

But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.

Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

"The bids were opened today in front of the Indian contract negotiating committee, comprising MoD, IAF, finance, production and quality assurance officials, as well as representatives from French Dassault and EADS (backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). It will take a few weeks to examine and evaluate their commercial proposals to arrive at a verifiable cost model to determine the L-1," said an official.

IAF wants the actual contract to be inked by January-February to ensure the delivery of first 18 jets begins by early-2015 to stem its fast-eroding combat edge, with HAL beginning the manufacturing of the rest 108 from early-2017 onwards. "The first jet built by HAL should roll out in early-2017," said an official.

India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met.
 
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ace009

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India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met.
Very interesting indeed - what is that timeline I wonder. 2020? Which LCA variant are they talking about? Mk 1 or Mk 2? Also, is it about the 2 seater FGFA or the 1 -seater PAK-FA delivery?

The "leak" about Rafale being lower fly away cost is old news - expected from previous knowledge - so what's the point?
 

weg

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Oman are reported to be buying 12 and Saudi another 48 Eurofighters.

I suspect the prices given to India have gone the rounds.

More here (Dubai show magazine, From AviationWeek.com)

http://au.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416198869&o=ext

Apparently Saudi have cancelled the F-15 and are ordering more Eurofighters. Thats a shock, the order was for 80 F-15's. If the 72 options exercised and 80 F-15's are replaced like-for-like then thats another 152 EF for Saudi Arabia.

As part of this there will be a major speed up of the EF's Multirole (ground attack) capabilities.

The RfP from UAE is for 60 aircraft and apparently the Rafale isn't included in it (page 48, link above).
 
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p2prada

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The biggest hurdle to Rafale would be EADS's offset offer. Partnership and then selling to third party is already better than Dassault's offer. Servicing third party aircraft is an added offer.

The offsets would be counted in the L1 bids along with transfer of industrial capability. This is what separated the F-414 from the EJ-200. A cheaper aircraft alone won't do. It has to be cheaper in all respects, some which don't even have anything to do with the aircraft.
 

pankaj nema

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A Snecma Kaveri Tie up for a new 95 KN engine for AMCA will also help in Dassault Rafale 's cause

There was a news that France was wooing Brazil with NUCLEAR Submarine technology for Rafale sale

So India too can demand the same

EADS on the Other hand is the main consultant for LCA MK 2

EJ 200 lost out quite narrowly to GE 414 in engine sale for LCA mk 2

We are surely living in interesting times :namaste:
 

weg

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The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.

"There is no such thing as a sticker price," said one officer. "You don't buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo." He explained why it could take up to six weeks – may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. "It's a price for the whole package," he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India's Parliament Street branch on November 4.

The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8.

M1 is the "unit flyaway cost", the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased "off the shelf".

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs – the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours – of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is "operational cost". M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a "mean time between failures" (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade.

M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence.

M8 is the computation of total costs.

The formula for computing the costs has an escalation cost, net present value and discounted cash flow built into it, a financial expert said.

Air force officers, however, worry that formulae have a way of getting disrupted in the acquisition process because they get complicated by the pressures of diplomacy and/or under-the-table processes. On the other hand, they also say that if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal. Compounding all of this is the IAF's dire necessity for the aircraft as it stretches its assets – such as the outdated MiG 21 that make up a bulk of its inventory -- well beyond their prescribed lifespan.
Fighter Bid Like No Other: European Rivals Sit At Long Table As Offers Are Read Out
 

Yusuf

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The biggest hurdle to Rafale would be EADS's offset offer. Partnership and then selling to third party is already better than Dassault's offer. Servicing third party aircraft is an added offer.

The offsets would be counted in the L1 bids along with transfer of industrial capability. This is what separated the F-414 from the EJ-200. A cheaper aircraft alone won't do. It has to be cheaper in all respects, some which don't even have anything to do with the aircraft.

That would make it more interesting. EF offer would then mean that we could actually make money and earn foreign exchange with future sales a d service. That indeed sweetens the offer.

This deal was always about extracting the maximum. This will add to it.
 

sayareakd

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if we chose to split the order for 200 fighters just imagine the benefit PMO and MEA can drive by having most of EU in their pocket with this deal.
 

SHASH2K2

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I always had a feeling that EFT had better TOT offer than France . presuming deal goes to Europe what will happen to kaveri snecma JV ?
 

p2prada

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That would make it more interesting. EF offer would then mean that we could actually make money and earn foreign exchange with future sales a d service. That indeed sweetens the offer.

This deal was always about extracting the maximum. This will add to it.
I wonder how private enterprise will take to the news if EF is selected.

I always had a feeling that EFT had better TOT offer than France . presuming deal goes to Europe what will happen to kaveri snecma JV ?
It seems so considering there is a partnership offer. We will even get a say in future upgrades.

The Kaveri Snecma offer will continue as usual. Snecma is not Dassault. Thales will continue selling electronics and radars to India and Dassault may offer Neuron when the time is right. Something is better than nothing and as the World's largest importer of arms we may keep the title for this decade at the very least. So, there will always be something new happening.
 
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