India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

The final call! Show your support. Who do you think should Win?

  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 66 51.2%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 63 48.8%

  • Total voters
    129
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ace009

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Why IAF does NOT need either Eurofighter or Rafale




November 11, 2011

The J-20 fighter prototype, a 5th generation combat aircraft built by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry, made its first flight on January 11, 2011. This necessitates a re-evaluation of the IAF's procurement of 4th generation medium fighters, which is close to being finalised.

Knife-edge tension was guaranteed as senior executives from Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault assembled on November 4 in the office of Vivek Rae, Director General (Acquisitions) of the Ministry of Defence. The purpose of the gathering: to open commercial bids for the world's most ill-conceived and biggest international arms purchase.

I refer to the Indian Air Force's harebrained proposal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that will be outrun and outgunned by Chinese fighters soon after they enter Indian Air Force service. The opening of bids in any big contract is a tense moment.

Eurofighter's and Dassault's inordinate anxiety also stems from the fact that the IAF buy is crucial to their future.

Eurofighter GmbH faces serious internal problems with partner nations scaling down their orders.

India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain's Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons.

And, couple of weeks ago, The New York Times reported that Germany's Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons.

Dassault is in even direr straits, with Rafale having failed to find a single international customer; there are just 180 Rafale fighters on order, all for the French military, which hardly has a choice.

The only relatively carefree man at the start of that meeting on Friday might be Mr Rae himself, who will be sitting on the defence ministry's war chest of Rs 42,000 crore.

But his good cheer may not survive the opening of bids because the MoD's estimate -- arrived at some six years ago -- will almost certainly be dwarfed by the lower bid.

Last month, the MoD re-valued its original estimation in a process called 'benchmarking'. But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD's "benchmarked" figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China.

Both the Typhoon and Rafale are "4th Generation-plus fighters", inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China's "5th Generation" (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year.

Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16.

Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them

The IAF sadly is shutting its eyes to this even as China's rising aerospace profile informs the security calculus of other regional air forces.

Japan, South Korea and Singapore are realising that a Gen-5 fleet is needed for a credible defence capability against the PLA.

South Korea is set to choose Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightening II, the only Gen-5 fighter on offer in the global market. The Japan Air Self Defence Force (JASDF) too is veering around to the F-35 after Lockheed Martin was denied export clearances to supply Tokyo the F-22 Raptor, unarguably the world's most advanced fighter.

In 2003, Singapore invested money into the F-35 development programme; it is on course to buy the aircraft.

Given that a rising China makes choosing Gen-5 a no-brainer, why then is the IAF (presumably a rational actor) inexplicably buying Gen-4+ fighters?

The reason, sadly, is the political-bureaucratic stranglehold over procurement in which any IAF re-evaluation carries a penalty of years of delay. In the early 2000s, when the IAF framed the case for buying an MMRCA, no Gen-5 aircraft were available for sale.

The F-35 was under development but was not ready for flight-testing, an essential part of India's procurement process.

Unwilling to wait for a Gen-5 fighter, the IAF scaled down its requirements and initiated an impartial multi-vendor contest for whatever Gen-4+ fighters were there in the market.

Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. Its manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015.

Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract.

The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding.

New Delhi has recently procured several fine aircraft on a single-vendor, government-to-government basis: the Sukhoi-30MKI from Russia; and the C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft from the US. The procurement of a new fighter that will form the backbone of the IAF for decades must be treated with the same urgency.

Why IAF does NOT need either Eurofighter or Rafale - Rediff.com News
I wonder why the f**k does he ignore the PAK-FA and the fact that India will get it by 2020 - about the same time as the F-35 maybe delivered if it is ordered today ...
Also, the F-35 cannot be India's answer for a MMRCA at this late a point - cancelling on the MMRCA deal now will be a disaster ...
However, I would love to see the F-35C in the navy ...
 

sayareakd

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@ace lot of money is involve you can image what is happing behind the scene. Expect more when final contender is named, whole circus of allegations and kickback and Inquiry etc.
 

Kunal Biswas

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[h=3]Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!![/h]
Following are the five weapons which will be integrated onboard Typhoon, if it wins, two of which are already on it :

1. Paveway IV --- Recently tested successfully, is more advanced than II and III.

2. Sidewinder AIM 9X Block-II---Analog, air-to-air, the Block-II is the most advanced in the sidewinder family.

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Iraq.

4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!

5. JSOW--Joint Stand-Off Weapon--the heaviest of them all, to go on the pylon!

No rough figure or estimate available. These can be changed/modified as per the customer needs.
 

Yusuf

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The rediff article is flawed. As if the Chinese force is going to be an all 5th gen fighter and India is not going to have any. Looks like some Lockheed $$$ are at work :D
 

sayareakd

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i hope we get both the planes (100 each or 120 each), we can afford it in long run, better to have 100 extra planes if we cant have artillery guns.
 

sayareakd

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The rediff article is flawed. As if the Chinese force is going to be an all 5th gen fighter and India is not going to have any. Looks like some Lockheed $$$ are at work :D
i think journalist some times suffers from barkha dutt syndrome:rofl:
 

SPIEZ

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The rediff article is flawed. As if the Chinese force is going to be an all 5th gen fighter and India is not going to have any. Looks like some Lockheed $$$ are at work :D
Sir, Lockheed and raytheon are completely different organisations.
 

ace009

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[h=3]Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!![/h]
Following are the five weapons which will be integrated onboard Typhoon, if it wins, two of which are already on it :

1. Paveway IV --- Recently tested successfully, is more advanced than II and III.

2. Sidewinder AIM 9X Block-II---Analog, air-to-air, the Block-II is the most advanced in the sidewinder family.

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Iraq.

4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!

5. JSOW--Joint Stand-Off Weapon--the heaviest of them all, to go on the pylon!

No rough figure or estimate available. These can be changed/modified as per the customer needs.
Kunal - most of the weapons are made and sold by US companies - they require congressional approval to sell weapons to any non-NATO countries. What is the scenario for such approval vis a vis each of these weapons? Is it possible that once the EF is chosen, some of the weapons are not delivered/ delayed because of such hurdles - especially since the US aircraft has been kicked out of MMRCA?
 

p2prada

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Kunal - most of the weapons are made and sold by US companies - they require congressional approval to sell weapons to any non-NATO countries. What is the scenario for such approval vis a vis each of these weapons? Is it possible that once the EF is chosen, some of the weapons are not delivered/ delayed because of such hurdles - especially since the US aircraft has been kicked out of MMRCA?
IAF Jaguars carry a Raytheon MCU. They will be able to fire the Aim-9X or Aim-9L. Congress has no issues selling us the Aim-120C5. With bigger orders I guess we can even go for Aim-120C7 which is far more advanced with home on jam features. The Aim-120C8 or Aim-120D has a longer range with a better seeker. Meteor will be in the works anyway.

PAKFA's 200Km+ Ramjet missiles will do more justice for the IAF.
 

agentperry

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there is a thumb rule called 50-50,90
this means if you have two options with equal probability of being right then 90% of the time you will be wrong in the decision-making.

my pessimist views over mmrca has scientific backing
 

p2prada

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Many countries make ARMs and AR based UAVs.

France's Martel, Britain's ALARM, Brazil's MAR, Israel's HAROP etc apart from Chinese versions.
 

Armand2REP

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No political considerations in awarding aircraft deals: AK Antony

NEW DELHI: Defence Minister A K Antony today made it clear that there will be "no political considerations" in awarding the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal which entered its last phase with the opening of commercial bids of two bidders.

Two companies including European Eurofighter and French Dassault Rafale are now left in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA) tender and their commercial bids were opened on November 4 by the Ministry.

"There will be no political considerations in defence procurement and that is our stand which everybody knows," he told reporters here.

The Minister was asked if the Defence Ministry would take into account geo-political considerations before deciding on the winner of the mega deal.

Antony said as far as his Ministry was concerned, "defence procurement is strictly professional and (based on) price. Technical evaluation is 101 per cent professional and then after that comes the price."

The Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft bid is backed by four partner nations including Germany, Italy, the UK and Spain whereas the Rafale bid is backed by the French government.

In April, the Defence Ministry had shortlisted the two aircraft while four companies including American Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Russian MiG 35 and Swedish Saab were rejected.

After the opening of commercial bids, the Defence Ministry is now busy with the process of determining the Life Cycle Cost (LCC) of the two aircraft to determine the lowest bidder, which will be offered the contract.

No political considerations in awarding aircraft deals: AK Antony - The Economic Times
 

SpArK

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Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!!




Following are the five weapons which will be integrated onboard Typhoon, if it wins, two of which are already on it :


1. Paveway IV --- Recently tested successfully, is more advanced than II and III.


2. Sidewinder AIM 9X Block-II---Analog, air-to-air, the Block-II is the most advanced in the sidewinder family.


3. AMRAAM---Tested in Iraq.


4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!


5. JSOW--Joint Stand-Off Weapon--the heaviest of them all, to go on the pylon!


No rough figure or estimate available. These can be changed/modified as per the customer needs.






Chindits: Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!!


RFI news from Raytheon and this news suggest EFT may have got the upper hand.
 

ace009

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Is the HARM comparable to the Novator K-100?
 

p2prada

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Is the HARM comparable to the Novator K-100?
Not at all. One is air to surface, the other is air to air. So roles alone are completely different apart from seeker and design.

Equivalents to HARM are Martel, ALARM, MAR-1 and KH-31P.

Edit: HARM is capable of air to air, but very limited as compared to dedicated air to air missiles.
 
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Yusuf

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P2P ARMs in A2A role are there right. AIM 7 , R27
 

Kunal Biswas

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Is the HARM comparable to the Novator K-100?
AGM-88 is deigned to seek radar signature of SAM engagement radars / surveillance radars its similar to KH-31 but AGM-88 ability to detect multiple bands..

Its not same as K-100 as its range in minimum and deign for different task..
 
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