India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Shashank Nayak]

Lockheed martin aims to sell repackaged F-16s every other month, same headlines same content, just a bit jumbled words.

I must have read same marketing headline 12 different times now.

It ain't happening.

We need 50 squadrons.. now that there might be recurrent battles/ wars with China in the near future.. One war or a few battles wont settle much between India and China.. So, we need both LCAs and F-21/F-16.. Also need to order mothballed Mirages from France, UAE Taiwan.. HAL alone cant build fighters fast enough.. Rafales are too costly..
Also, economy is on the mend... with Manufacturing PMI at 52 for August.. Economy continues to reopen inspite of rising Covid cases.. as Case fatality rate is very low at 1.72 percent..

 

[Sehwag213]

Think again since Chini have blinked first and on backfoot.

India is sitting on some crucial peaks and it means Chini need at least 6:1 to force India from the top. Review Kargil War when we lost most of our men in initial phases and then called in artillery and air support to cook Pakis alive and then charged in. China is full of air and still could not fire. Also the more this situation remains the more Chini LOSE in terms of economy since India has put economic sanctions and Chini businessmen would be frustrated with Xitler. GobarTimes is BEGGING to India to resume business.

Indian jahil janta was so happy using all Chinese maal at the cost of local business suffering and then making hue and cry for "Naukri kahan hai? hai hai"

No one with sane and long term strategic goal would want some "April status quo" when it would be us to lose much more due to the advances made in military, economic and public perception against China. China is actually surprised the way we responded since they expected CONgress time surrender.

Read this post in case you missed as it tells in detail.

India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

somebody please educate me a bit, what's classified in this map? it looks to me, a simple contour map without contour reference or scale. is it a deliberate leak (if classified)?

defenceforumindia.com

From BRF. He couldn't have summed it up better.

 

[omaebakabaka]

We need 50 squadrons.. now that there might be recurrent battles/ wars with China in the near future.. One war or a few battles wont settle much between India and China.. So, we need both LCAs and F-21/F-16.. Also need to order mothballed Mirages from France, UAE Taiwan.. HAL alone cant build fighters fast enough.. Rafales are too costly..
Also, economy is on the mend... with Manufacturing PMI at 52 for August.. Economy continues to reopen inspite of rising Covid cases.. as Case fatality rate is very low at 1.72 percent..

We do not need 900 fighters, what we do need is about 500 to 600 modern fighters and we can achieve that by replaceing mig-21s in current fleet. We do indeed need Tejas and totally domestic fighters that are capable of matching the mid-level performance section of our neighbors fleets. This is the only way to develop domestic industry and reduce wealth migration by importing only topnotch in the top section of the fleet pyramid.

 

[LDev]

We need 50 squadrons.. now that there might be recurrent battles/ wars with China in the near future.. One war or a few battles wont settle much between India and China.. So, we need both LCAs and F-21/F-16.. Also need to order mothballed Mirages from France, UAE Taiwan.. HAL alone cant build fighters fast enough.. Rafales are too costly..
Also, economy is on the mend... with Manufacturing PMI at 52 for August.. Economy continues to reopen inspite of rising Covid cases.. as Case fatality rate is very low at 1.72 percent..

Correct. This business of people saying that if India imports a fighter will translate into slow/no local aircraft development/production is like saying , "I cannot keep any alcohol in my house because I may turn out to be a drunkard". Imports are meant to give the IAF the tools to fight battles. Domestic development/production enhance local knowledge/skill and provide flexibility and independence to foreign policy. But to deprive the IAF of squadrons just because there is a dogma against imports is plain wrong. After all the IAF is not responsible for the many shortcomings of DPSUs including HAL and GTRE. And not giving it the squadron numbers that it needs is tying one hand behind it's back.

As far as the F-16 is concerned, in it's latest Block 70 form as offered to India it is clearly far superior to what the PAF has or for what matter it is superior to any aircraft the PLAAF also has. It will provide the fill-up to the squadron numbers that the IAF needs ASAP. And LM like Boeing will be able to provide the numbers on schedule. What is against it is that it is at the end of it's life cycle and most countries that can are transitioning out of it to the F-35. However the F-16 will continue to be operated by the US National Guard for at least the next 10-15 years in it's role of protecting the continental US.

 

[Bhadra]

Read the European Hotchpotch :

Prolongation of the India - China standoff at the LAC may lead to sharper Indian focus on the Tibet issue

www.efsas.org

 

[Mikesingh]

Double blow for China after Thailand scraps Kra Canal project, delays submarine deal amid public pressure

China suffered a double whammy after Thailand cancelled the Kra Canal project and delayed the purchase of two Yuan-class S26T submarines.

China will permanently remain a green-water navy in the Indo-Pacific stuck with the “Malacca dilemma”. China is cornered from all sides in the South China Sea and no one, including China’s friends in the region, is coming up to help Beijing become a blue-water navy capable of exerting influence beyond its littoral zone. Beijing has now suffered a major blow from the China-friendly regime of Thailand.

As per Bloomberg, Thailand is looking to construct a land passageway bypassing the Strait of Malacca, effectively scrapping the Kra Canal project that China wanted to build in order to create a sea route alternative to the Strait of Malacca. To further aggravate China’s pain the Thai government has also buckled under public pressure, delaying the purchase of two Chinese submarines worth 724 million US Dollars.

Till now, China was pinning its hopes on the Kra Canal project, a proposal to construct a 120-kilometre mega canal cutting through the isthmus of Kra in Thailand, which would have helped it to find an alternative sea route connecting the South China Sea (Pacific) and the Indian Ocean.

This was in line with Beijing’s long-term ambitions to bypass the Strait of Malacca, a narrow chokepoint between the Malay Peninsula and the Indonesian island of Sumatra that divides the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

Thailand gives a major shock to China: Scraps Kra Canal plan and drops submarine deals under public pressure

Thailand is looking to construct a land passageway bypassing the Strait of Malacca, effectively scrapping the Kra Canal project that China wanted to build

tfipost.com

Xi and the wily Chinese CPC are getting their butts kicked left, right and center! They're so screwed! Except for the rogue nations of Pakistan and North Korea, no one wants these turds around. Isolation is now the name of the game.

There's unrest brewing in the CPC too seeing XI's shenanigans, driving China towards a spectacular implosion. I hope that comes about sooner than later. The world then would be a far better place than what it is now, thanks to the CPC led by a bonehead.

 

[cereal killer]

Hi guys
Back with some more insights.
The induction of the ITBP, for point static defence is a huge show of our intent.
This frees the army for an offensive run, and that is why china is scared

The loss of time in talks has now begun to hurt indian interests, as the chinese are able to reinforce their rear.
The chinese at moldo, pangong tso are in deep trouble,
But when the shots are fired, our objective is to capture other peaks lost in 62 and then begin the reverse salami starting next year.
The way I see it
War is inevitable. But the more time we give the chinese, the more they are able to reinforce far off hilltops.

Hmmm.. But weren't you the one who said Haji Pir has been captured by IA? Nothing remotely close of that sort has come into light. And such a huge operation would not be easy to keep under the carpets either.

 

[Cheran]

 

[Shashank Nayak]

We do not need 900 fighters, what we do need is about 500 to 600 modern fighters and we can achieve that by replaceing mig-21s in current fleet. We do indeed need Tejas and totally domestic fighters that are capable of matching the mid-level performance section of our neighbors fleets. This is the only way to develop domestic industry and reduce wealth migration by importing only topnotch in the top section of the fleet pyramid.

We cannot bleed airframe life of our best fighters for CAPs.. Considering our long hostile frontiers with China and Pakistan.. we also need the numbers in case of a long attrition war against China.. Although domestic fighters are preferable the domestic industry alone cant give us the necessary number of fighters in the next five years.. So, we go for LCA MK1A, MWF, ORCA and well as one 4.5 generation decent fighter like F-16.. Also, considering the sheer numbers of F-16s operated by airforces worldwide managing spares will not be a problem even when Assembly lines shut down in the US.. Also, 30 percent offsets can be used to make Lockheed manufacture more spares here in India.. Also we need to bump up defense spending to over 3 percent of GDP like in the 70s and 80s..

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars A Chinese PLA linked SM site (forum) suspended two users without giving any reasons, soon after they posted about the PLA's loss of Black Top in Chushul.

 

[Brood Father]

Correct. This business of people saying that if India imports a fighter will translate into slow/no local aircraft development/production is like saying , "I cannot keep any alcohol in my house because I may turn out to be a drunkard". Imports are meant to give the IAF the tools to fight battles. Domestic development/production enhance local knowledge/skill and provide flexibility and independence to foreign policy. But to deprive the IAF of squadrons just because there is a dogma against imports is plain wrong. After all the IAF is not responsible for the many shortcomings of DPSUs including HAL and GTRE. And not giving it the squadron numbers that it needs is tying one hand behind it's back.

As far as the F-16 is concerned, in it's latest Block 70 form as offered to India it is clearly far superior to what the PAF has or for what matter it is superior to any aircraft the PLAAF also has. It will provide the fill-up to the squadron numbers that the IAF needs ASAP. And LM like Boeing will be able to provide the numbers on schedule. What is against it is that it is at the end of it's life cycle and most countries that can are transitioning out of it to the F-35. However the F-16 will continue to be operated by the US National Guard for at least the next 10-15 years in it's role of protecting the continental US.

The problem is that you have limited money . Let me put into perspective ..You have 100 Rs , now either you can create the domestic infra which will cost you 90Rs and then also give you experience to produce and manufacturer and also will make sure that 90Rs is circulated in indian economy , yes your fighter will be slightly less capable compared to foreign but it will yours and you can upgrade it going forward at your will

Or you can give 100Rs to Americans in dollars by depleting your foreign exchange and the money is lost to foreign economy .You gain 0 experience in creating a fighter jets , you have not created any military complex and also you are at mercy of Americans for supplying spares and critical technology (example our own Su30)
Sure at the end you are left with a good fighter but are you willing to pay that cost ..

Unless we have found the location of Aztec gold we have to be very careful in our spending

 

[mist_consecutive]

@Kumata do you hear any signs of cooldown?

 

[cereal killer]

From BRF. He couldn't have summed it up better.

View attachment 58230

Theoretically guy has summarized the equation very well but he is forgetting that Chini Moldo garrison is virtually under siege by IA & that's a big victory coz it was their launch pad for a possible invasion into Chushul. They came from there in 1962 Rezang la battle as well I guess.
Moldo Garrison >> Finger 4 or 3 when it comes to strategic significance.

Regarding Hot spring Gogra & Depsang well that's indeed a concern. If Chinese initiate any action, these are the places & I guess we will be ready to push them back & regain lost ground.

 

[IndianYonko]

Correct. This business of people saying that if India imports a fighter will translate into slow/no local aircraft development/production is like saying , "I cannot keep any alcohol in my house because I may turn out to be a drunkard". Imports are meant to give the IAF the tools to fight battles. Domestic development/production enhance local knowledge/skill and provide flexibility and independence to foreign policy. But to deprive the IAF of squadrons just because there is a dogma against imports is plain wrong. After all the IAF is not responsible for the many shortcomings of DPSUs including HAL and GTRE. And not giving it the squadron numbers that it needs is tying one hand behind it's back.

As far as the F-16 is concerned, in it's latest Block 70 form as offered to India it is clearly far superior to what the PAF has or for what matter it is superior to any aircraft the PLAAF also has. It will provide the fill-up to the squadron numbers that the IAF needs ASAP. And LM like Boeing will be able to provide the numbers on schedule. What is against it is that it is at the end of it's life cycle and most countries that can are transitioning out of it to the F-35. However, the F-16 will continue to be operated by the US National Guard for at least the next 10-15 years in it's role of protecting the continental US.

With all this non-sense of choosing from here and there, in the future, we are going to land in the same position as we are today. MWF and other projects will end up with the same fate as Tejas. the strict factor here is budget, why IAF would fund indigenous options if they have to buy to foreign stuff only, and even if they are willing to fund can they afford it after buying foreign jets. Those dallals will only increase the chances of destroying these projects. We will have to forget these F-16/21 for better and rather focus on developing an eco-system that can churn out good aircraft and upgrades.

BTW how much your alcohol cost?

 

[another_armchair]

Double blow for China after Thailand scraps Kra Canal project, delays submarine deal amid public pressure

China suffered a double whammy after Thailand cancelled the Kra Canal project and delayed the purchase of two Yuan-class S26T submarines.

View attachment 58231

China will permanently remain a green-water navy in the Indo-Pacific stuck with the “Malacca dilemma”. China is cornered from all sides in the South China Sea and no one, including China’s friends in the region, is coming up to help Beijing become a blue-water navy capable of exerting influence beyond its littoral zone. Beijing has now suffered a major blow from the China-friendly regime of Thailand.

As per Bloomberg, Thailand is looking to construct a land passageway bypassing the Strait of Malacca, effectively scrapping the Kra Canal project that China wanted to build in order to create a sea route alternative to the Strait of Malacca. To further aggravate China’s pain the Thai government has also buckled under public pressure, delaying the purchase of two Chinese submarines worth 724 million US Dollars.

Till now, China was pinning its hopes on the Kra Canal project, a proposal to construct a 120-kilometre mega canal cutting through the isthmus of Kra in Thailand, which would have helped it to find an alternative sea route connecting the South China Sea (Pacific) and the Indian Ocean.

This was in line with Beijing’s long-term ambitions to bypass the Strait of Malacca, a narrow chokepoint between the Malay Peninsula and the Indonesian island of Sumatra that divides the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

Thailand gives a major shock to China: Scraps Kra Canal plan and drops submarine deals under public pressure

Thailand is looking to construct a land passageway bypassing the Strait of Malacca, effectively scrapping the Kra Canal project that China wanted to build

tfipost.com

Xi and the wily Chinese CPC are getting their butts kicked left, right and center! They're so screwed! Except for the rogue nations of Pakistan and North Korea, no one wants these turds around. Isolation is now the name of the game.

There's unrest brewing in the CPC too seeing XI's shenanigans, driving China towards a spectacular implosion. I hope that comes about sooner than later. The world then would be a far better place than what it is now, thanks to the CPC led by a bonehead.

Xi's departure from Chinese politics won't make the world a better place as his successor may be a worse bet for the free world considering he will only further the CPC agenda though in a less aggressive fashion.

Xi inherited a pot of gold from his predecessors who toiled hard in the realm of realpolitik and did it with clinical precision.

Only the complete dismantling of Communist China will help the world breathe easy for a while but that will not undo the largesse the world gifted them for 50 years.

China's turn to democracy could spell more bad news for the World as they won't have an excuse to impose trade barriers, sanctions under pretext-x or y.

How will the world deal with a democratic China?

We already have small Asian tigers like Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam and new entrant Thailand to the club.

Under what pretext will you deny the gargantuan Chinese industrial base its rightful share in the global economy unless you nuke them to oblivion? I think only the second option holds for the West and India has been propped up as the fall guy who will take the sucker punch from China.

I see no other way out of this mess. Germany and Japan rose from dust and reclaimed their place in record time.

No, this isn't dhoti shivering but I don't see a solution though nothing would give me greater joy than to see a free Tibet.

Imposing crippling sanctions on China regardless of which dictator takes over and keeping them isolated is the only way out but that can only be a short term goal.

 

[rock127]

From BRF. He couldn't have summed it up better.

View attachment 58230

Read my post again in case you missed something as I put up economy and heights.

Anyone who is making a calculation in terms of "sq kms" needs some basic lessons first even if he is some Super Marshal in US.

Gain few kms in Thar desert and then gain some sq inch in Punjab. Apples and Oranges. Seems like negative thinking can't end ever in India. If this was Pakis Vs India then Pakis would have claimed victory. As an example they claim Pakis won since they hold point 5353.

I hope you got my point and don't quote from that BRF to base your claims to be right. Kinda disappointing BRF post of self inflicting moral down.

 

[LDev]

The problem is that you have limited money . Let me put into perspective ..You have 100 Rs , now either you can create the domestic infra which will cost you 90Rs and then also give you experience to produce and manufacturer and also will make sure that 90Rs is circulated in indian economy , yes your fighter will be slightly less capablecompared to foreign but it will yours and you can upgrade it going forward at your will

Or you can give 100Rs to Americans in dollars by depleting your foreign exchange and the money is lost to foreign economy .You gain 0 experience in creating a fighter jets , you have not created any military complex and also you are at mercy of Americans for supplying spares and critical technology (example our own Su30)
Sure at the end you are left with a good fighter but are you willing to pay that cost ..

Unless we have found the location of Aztec gold we have to be very careful in our spending

The infrastructure has been created and it's there, HAL, GTRE, LRDE are all sunk costs. The problem is that they are not as productive as they should be and are late when it comes to delivering. Whether the LCA has "slightly less capability" is for the IAF to decide. After all what the IAF will want is a fighter that can hold it's own against what the PAF and PLAAF will throw at it. That is their judgment and it should be respected.

Of course, domestic production will result in money being circulated in the domestic economy. But the major sub systems of the LCA even today i.e. engines, radar and Derby AAMs are imported.

 

[Sehwag213]

Read my post again in case you missed something as I put up economy and heights.

Anyone who is making a calculation in terms of "sq kms" needs some basic lessons first even if he is some Super Marshal in US.

Gain few kms in Thar desert and then gain some sq inch in Punjab. Apples and Oranges. Seems like negative thinking can't end ever in India. If this was Pakis Vs India then Pakis would have claimed victory. As an example they claim Pakis won since they hold point 5353.

I hope you got my point and don't quote from that BRF to base your claims to be right. Kinda disappointing BRF post of self inflicting moral down.

Are you telling me Despang plains are insignificant?
I think sometimes we need to have realistic analysis too. Otherwise we would be no different than Pakis.

 

[Haldilal]

If there's something like strategic deterrence built on conventional military capability, that's air power.

 

[sorcerer]

Pak’s ISI, MI on full-scale anti-India information war - The Sunday Guardian Live

Pakistan spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), along with the Military Intelligence (MI) wing of the Pakistan army, with the help that they have been receiving from the Chinese PLA, has embarked on a massive information warfare to damage India’s social fabric and spread anarchy through the use of social media platforms.

Pak’s ISI, MI on full-scale anti-India information war - The Sunday Guardian Live

The aim is to damage India’s social fabric and spread anarchy using social media platforms. Pakistan spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI),

www.sundayguardianlive.com