India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Synergy]

Just saw a post on sino forum.

The black top has our monitoring equipment, which is managed and maintained by
the Qiudi Sengela post. The main task is to monitor the Indian army near Finger
2 on the north shore of Pangong Lake and inform the North Shore border post at
any time. CCTV female reporter Wang Juan once accompanied Qiu The patrol
officers and soldiers of the Dijangela post boarded the black top together, and
it was broadcast on the National Defense Military Morning

View attachment 58151

View attachment 58162


Also they just got confirmation that Black Top is still in Chinese Hands

Check pic out.

Spoiler

View attachment 58164

"CCTV female reporter Wang Juan once accompanied Qiu The patrolo officers and soldiers of the Dijangela post boarded the black top together"

please note ONCE, not now. they are showing stills from an old video or telecasting/circulating that video to convince. why?

and yes, there were reports on Indian troops removed surveillance equipments. so if they are saying Black Top had surveillance equipments, then it's under our control and their report attesting that.

or am I missing something?

 

[Synergy]

Not appropriate to use such terms for soldiers of any country. If India had the superiority in numbers, it would mean that India had the upper hand and not that they were rats.

fyki, they are not soldiers of any country. PLA is militia of CCP.
they even neither release the number of casualties nor they honour them.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Not that simple. Air would be an order of magnitude more difficult. 2d vs 3d.

Not saying it can't be done though but it's a different thing altogether.

Interception is possible if something follows a ballistic path as simple equations calculate that path and you can intercept it with kinetic or fragmentation warheads. Quasi ballistic projectiles are a different story.....cruise missles are feared for that reason also as they are not ballistic but they can be intercepted in terminal phase via optical/radar and other detection methods as most are at best supersonic. Glide bombs and free falling bombs are also very hard to intercept. If you are talking about arty shells, no one tries to intercept for obvious reasons and rather focus on taking the arty out of action rather. I don't understand 2d/3d, you mean stationary vs mobile?

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is dedicated to all the stoic fools/rogues who wanted to use opposition to put 'pressure' on GoI :

 

[LETHALFORCE]

‘If war starts, India will have no chance of winning’: China threatens despite Rajnath Singh’s warning

China made these statements in an editorial on its mouthpiece Global Times on Saturday, a day after Defence Minister Rajnath Singh met his Chinese counterpart General Wei Fenghe in Moscow.

www.google.com

‘If war starts, India will have no chance of winning’: China threatens despite Rajnath Singh’s warning

Somebody tell these mongrels how many yellow monkeys we have killed

 

[johnq]

Let me work it a bit....

PLAF is about 3000 fighters of various kind even if you exaggerate.....out of that roughly 1000 are considered modern (including j-10s).....lets say they want to deploy 50 to 60% which means 500 to 600, thats about 34 squads based on IAF squad....do they have that many airbases in range to deploy? Coming from high altitude they already inherit penalties in range and load capacity....

Compare that to India:

About 400 to 500 fighters inclusing mig 21s......our bases are at sea level and can perform to max....and more likely we will try to take out their airbase if they are in range. I can explain more but this gives you an idea on why they may not go for air battles.

It's not just the number of aircraft, it's how you use them, and PLAAF training is crap. PLAAF fly far fewer hours and have never trained for the kind of complex strike and air combat missions that the IAF trains for regularly. Plus their exposure is limited, while IAF has been training regularly with western and eastern air forces. Tactics and training matter. That is why Abhinandan was able to shoot down an F-16. Fancy technology can never make up for training, and PLAAF technology is more show and less substance. Same goes for numbers.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It's not just the number of aircraft, it's how you use them, and PLAAF training is crap. PLAAF fly far fewer hours and have never trained for the kind of complex strike and air combat missions that the IAF trains for regularly. Plus their exposure is limited, while IAF has been training regularly with western and eastern air forces. Tactics and training matter. That is why Abhinandan was able to shoot down an F-16. Fancy technology can never make up for training, and PLAAF technology is more show and less substance. Same goes for numbers.

You may be correct and I hope so, IAF and IA did exceptionally well with only average odds in its favor in wars. PLAF seems to be busy over the past few years intercepting USAF, Taiwan AF, Japan SDF and so on. So I would consider them decently trained vs PLA....I never looked into 1962 war to know whether any air battles occured?

 

[johnq]

You may be correct and I hope so, IAF and IA did exceptionally well with only average odds in its favor in wars. PLAF seems to be busy over the past few years intercepting USAF, Taiwan AF, Japan SDF and so on. So I would consider them decently trained vs PLA....I never looked into 1962 war to know whether any air battles occured?

Those interceptions are more like political statements, and don't make up for piss poor training. IAF has been training for this moment for years. For example, they know how to shoot down stealth aircraft by using their radars in hunter-killer cooperative mode.

 

[johnq]

"CCTV female reporter Wang Juan once accompanied Qiu The patrolo officers and soldiers of the Dijangela post boarded the black top together"

please note ONCE, not now. they are showing stills from an old video or telecasting/circulating that video to convince. why?

and yes, there were reports on Indian troops removed surveillance equipments. so if they are saying Black Top had surveillance equipments, then it's under our control and their report attesting that.

or am I missing something?

There is usually a delay in getting the facts from these border areas, plus I don't trust Chinese propaganda at all. Shiv Aroor doesn't mess around; if he says India has Black Top, I would take his word over the Chinese propaganda machine any day.

 

[ataru09]

Interception is possible if something follows a ballistic path as simple equations calculate that path and you can intercept it with kinetic or fragmentation warheads. Quasi ballistic projectiles are a different story.....cruise missles are feared for that reason also as they are not ballistic but they can be intercepted in terminal phase via optical/radar and other detection methods as most are at best supersonic. Glide bombs and free falling bombs are also very hard to intercept. If you are talking about arty shells, no one tries to intercept for obvious reasons and rather focus on taking the arty out of action rather. I don't understand 2d/3d, you mean stationary vs mobile?

All the physics involved is elementary. Not doubting that.

A flying target is in 3d space. A ground target is in 2d space. Which makes intercepting a flying target that much harder. Not saying it can't be done and the Americans have already shown it. My original comment was for how different engineering an Excalibur shell is different from the aerial interception shell that they have tested.

 

[tarunraju]

This is dedicated to all the stoic fools/rogues who wanted to use opposition to put 'pressure' on GoI :

We wanted to use opposition pressure just enough to get the government to act in Ladakh. It kinda worked. Now we want the opposition to either support the government on Ladakh or get lost.

Congress boxed itself into a position where it's spewed so much rhetoric on "taking back territory from the Chinese," that China cannot get Congress to do anti-war psy-ops designed to weaken the government's resolve.

Chinese-paid anti-war op-eds have started. But Congress won't join that. PLA psy-op capability cucked. Everyone's happy.

 

[cereal killer]

Any news on Depsang? What's the situation in Gogra, Hot springs?

 

[ForigenSanghi]

Congress boxed itself into a position where it's spewed so much rhetoric on "taking back territory from the Chinese," that China cannot get Congress to do anti-war psy-ops designed to weaken the government's resolve.

Chinese-paid anti-war op-eds have started. But Congress won't join that. PLA psy-op capability cucked. Everyone's happy.

You are assuming the congis to be honest and honorable. BIG MISTAKE.

They are slimy cockroaches who will turn their colors before you even blink.

Case in point - they were both supporting and opposing 370 removal at the same time.

Congis will have no problem in saying two things at once. They will probably get Amrinder to support the army while raga and his rudalis barks at Modi.

 

[tarunraju]

You are assuming the congis to be honest and honorable. BIG MISTAKE.

They are slimy cockroaches who will turn their colors before you even blink.

Case in point - they were both supporting and opposing 370 removal at the same time.

Congis will have no problem in saying two things at once. They will probably get Amrinder to support the army while raga and his rudalis barks at Modi.

Except that it was Rahul Gandhi leading the charge on Ladakh. Let's see if other congis take an anti-war stance now. BJP spox will slaughter them.

 

[omaebakabaka]

All the physics involved is elementary. Not doubting that.

A flying target is in 3d space. A ground target is in 2d space. Which makes intercepting a flying target that much harder. Not saying it can't be done and the Americans have already shown it. My original comment was for how different engineering an Excalibur shell is different from the aerial interception shell that they have tested.

Well, flying object following a ballistic path can theoretically modeled in 2d keeping to a single vertical plane ignoring earth's curvature. But in practice there are various forces that act on the moving object and the ballistic computers constantly compute those parameters which means all three coordinates actually change in my opinion (I think and not just 2 coords). Biggest problem for interceptor missiles is the speed of target and its own speed ofcourse and at which point it is trying to intercept.
On the ground scenario, which is an arty guy firing a shell.....he calculates the required angle based on known parameters by observation and adjusts the fire accordingly (mostly looking at charts which are now actual computers)....this is pretty simple and mostly 2d accounting for wind speed and air resistance and its own calibration. Excalibur and Krasnoyark shells just increase the precision and takes away some cons of regular shell by using GPS and other sensors along with control surfaces. moving ground targets are not that simple and they use optical sensors or lasers but i would say its 3d as it needs to manouvre from an initial firing position. Anyway I get what you are saying....

 

[Tuco]

An example of what our soldiers are facing, this is near pak border but one can imagine.

 

[ataru09]

Well, flying object following a ballistic path can theoretically modeled in 2d keeping to a single vertical plane ignoring earth's curvature. But in practice there are various forces that act on the moving object and the ballistic computers constantly compute those parameters which means all three coordinates actually change in my opinion (I think and not just 2 coords). Biggest problem for interceptor missiles is the speed of target and its own speed ofcourse and at which point it is trying to intercept.
On the ground scenario, which is an arty guy firing a shell.....he calculates the required angle based on known parameters by observation and adjusts the fire accordingly (mostly looking at charts which are now actual computers)....this is pretty simple and mostly 2d accounting for wind speed and air resistance and its own calibration. Excalibur and Krasnoyark shells just increase the precision and takes away some cons of regular shell by using GPS and other sensors along with control surfaces. moving ground targets are not that simple and they use optical sensors or lasers but i would say its 3d as it needs to manouvre from an initial firing position. Anyway I get what you are saying....

An aerial target can maneuver in 3d. A ground based target cannot is what I am saying. You can't model that movement in a 2d vertical plane. Not talking about the motion of the shell but of the motion of the target...

 

[HindaviSwarajya]

Some more astrology on current situation

 

[tarunraju]

Wonder what the Tehran visit is about. Iranian action at Balochistan if 2-front against India breaks out?

 

[Flying Dagger]

That's because they don't hire artisans that has generations of experience in metallurgy and alchemists and blacksmiths. What we hire are substandard engineers with one year of workshop experience. No innovation will comes, insas is the evidence and am trying to high ball it.

It takes skill to fcuk Ak 47 based rifle. We deserve applause for doing that with INSAS.

Infact when they had all these years to copy from galil ace or AR based platform like SCAR but they kept offering substandard products.

When army called out they decided to copy arsenal as AK replacement and came up with Ghatak.

TAR is a decent ak but still the price they are offering at is laugh worthy in comparison to what we paid to buy it directly from OEM.

Let's not go that route again we have spent lot of times doing this . They'll never change unless we have a RM who literally screw them and their entire Babudom.