India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[LDev]

Everything is evil, but sukhoi is the lesser evil since India can make most of it in its own territory.
No royalties need to be paid now to anyone, even russia.
Also, there's already existing infrastructure that allows to continue its build without any other overhead costs.
Atlast, because it is such a big brute, it has the capability of being highly upgradable and adaptable. Most of the indian weapon tests happen on this aircraft, be it brahmos, astra, guided bombs, other missiles etc.

As of 2014 HAL had reached the maximum local component input as defined by the India-Russian agreement to license manufacture the SU-30 according to this article from 2014:

Through years of building the Su-30MKI, HAL Nashik has gradually mastered the expertise that makes it one of the world's most feared fighters. Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

So as you can see, approximately 23% of components are imported from Russia, even fact, they have to be imported. But these 23% components are high value components and they contribute towards 50% of the cost of the manufacture. Furthermore so much for praising Russian unconditional TOT. As you can see from the above, the engine composites and alloys are proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with.

HAL claims that it costs Rs 450 crores to manufacture the SU-30, about $65 million and 50% of that is imported components from Russia. It's a great deal for the Russians to supply designs that are now 25 years old for $30-$35 million per plane that HAL built.

However, the question is, does the plane really cost $65 million now and going forward. Given below is an excerpt from a GOI press release after Rajnath's Singh recent Russia visit and it relates to the purchase of the second hand Mig 29s and the 12 new build SU-30s:

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement Thursday which includes the upgrade of 59 MiG-29 aircraft, a MoD release said.

“While the MIG 29 procurement and upgradation from Russia is estimated to cost ₹7,418 crores $992Mn), the Su-30 MKI will be procured from (HAL) Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at an estimated cost of ₹10,730 crore ($1.44Bn)," the release added.

HAL sources told Defenseworld.net that the additional Sukhoi Su-30MKI purchase will be assembled at HAL’s Nashik facility. Formal approvals from the government are awaited.

So for these 12 SU-30s, the total cost is going to be $1.44 billion i.e. $120 million per SU-30. This is for a bare bones aircraft with no spares and no weapons. Heck, the cost of the bare bones Rafale without the India Specific Enhancements, weapons and cost to set up the base infrastructure is about $100 million.

So India is now paying through it's nose for an aircraft whose technology was current as of 1996-98 when it's design was frozen. Bad deal IMO.

 

[Kumata]

OK, you India won finally at 1967, nothing is need to worry about , China is the loser.

Relax my friend.

finally you agree that chinese are biggest loser of this world... did you ccp even ack the soldiers who died in 62 and all wars lost by pure hans LOL

 

[cereal killer]

Yeah , as you said , Indian is the winner in 1962 and 1967 , and just look down upon Chinese soldier , and be relax with Chinese army.

Don't be so serious , don't worry about China , focus on USA, surpass USA, and India will be No.1 of the world.

What do you think happened? What is taught in your country? Give your own version

 

[johnq]

Dalai Lama is a peaceful Buddhist, and Chinese are brainwashed by their government's lies, and that includes their fake museums. The Chinese killed and enslaved Tibetans and replaced them with Han Chinese as the rest of the Tibetans ran away to India with the Dalai Lama, so even the people in Tibet are not real Tibetans. Chinese conducted cultural genocide on the Tibetans and Uyghurs, and many Tibetans and Uyghurs are working in slave factories. But eventually all of these slaves will be freed by India, US and the rest of the world; and all of the land stolen by China will also be freed. We will destroy all of Chinese military. We will take revenge on China for killing and permanently disabling the millions of people with the Chinese Covid viral biological weapon. Taiwan and Hong Kong will become independent democracies free from China.

 

[prasadr14]

The Bat munchers are now vilifying Dalai Lama
While they prostate before Mao and pray to him.

And then they go around the world preaching crap.

 

[scatterStorm]

This one is sister's drum, made by Tibetan Buddhist monks before 1949.

Made by a live girls skin.

There are many this kind of drum in Tibetan history.

View attachment 56850

Place this in an appropriate thread first then I'll discuss. So much misinformation already.

 

[HKedifier]

What do you think happened? What is taught in your country? Give your own version

Sorry , I don't know about this , this is a very small issue in China history after 1949.

I have learned Chinese army fighting against USA and UN at Korea for 3 years.
1962 with India (not said too much, because its very short , only a month.)
197* with USSR , also very short , but China prepared for total war, very dangerous situation.
198* with Vietnam , for 10 years.

 

[HKedifier]

finally you agree that chinese are biggest loser of this world... did you ccp even ack the soldiers who died in 62 and all wars lost by pure hans LOL

As you happy , that's history.

Wish Indian not so sensitive, focus on country development.

India and China need to work together , and pursue better life for its people.

 

[scatterStorm]

OK, you India won finally at 1967, nothing is need to worry about , China is the loser.

Relax my friend.

 

[Kumata]

As you happy , that's history.

Wish Indian not so sensitive, focus on country development.

India and China need to work together , and pursue better life for its people.

first learn to write properly..

and don't worry about us working together... we tried this with our best intentions but your winnie the pooh choose to backstab with chinese virus and than altering the status of LAC... fact is china is a rogue nation run by thugs of CCP & PLA>.. we don't deal with thugs unfortunately,.

 

[LDev]

And Mica integrated on Sukhoi is BS . Who said it to you ?

This is an article written by Hemant Rout in the New Indian Express. His sourcing is a bit hit and miss, generally good in the past......

Published: 19th August 2020 08:00 AM | Last Updated: 19th August 2020 04:56 PM

Defence sources said anti-air multi-target MICA missile fired from Sukhoi-30 MKI for the first time successfully destroyed expendable aerial targets (EATs), demonstrating its stealth capabilities. Ahead of the planned integration with multi-role combat aircraft Rafale, the IAF test fired two rounds of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile MICA on Monday and Tuesday.

The fighter aircraft took off from Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal and fired the missile, successfully neutralising the aerial target drone mimicking enemy aircraft at low altitude. “All mission parameters have been met as the target was destroyed validating the missile’s launch envelope. The missile will equip both Sukhoi and Rafale fighter jets,” a defence official told ‘The Express’.

The MICA comes in a radar homing as well as an IR variant. It was not specifed as to which of the 2 variants were tested or whether both were tested. I was reading on another site (cant get hold of it now) that France finally agreed to let India integrate the Mica on the SU-30.

The big un-answered question is if the ARH version of the Mica has been integrated with the SU-30, what does that say about the Astra? Is it performance issues or lack of production? Probably the latter I feel, given the Ladakh situation the IAF probably wants all missiles in large numbers in inventory.

IAF test fires air-to-air missiles ahead of Rafale integration

 

[Jaymax61]

OK, you India won finally at 1967, nothing is need to worry about , China is the loser.

Relax my friend.

Bhaag bhosdike.....

4 foot ki chipkali... sale sir pe heath mara 2 foot ka bhi nhi rhega

 

[scatterStorm]

Sorry , I don't know about this , this is a very small issue in China history after 1949.

I have learned Chinese army fighting against USA and UN at Korea for 3 years.
1962 with India (not said too much, because its very short , only a month.)
197* with USSR , also very short , but China prepared for total war, very dangerous situation.
198* with Vietnam , for 10 years.

Some info is correct, but your country doesn't talk about the 1967 skirmish with India. Meaning they were defeated. Hence the education system didn't allowed it to be taught to the children, much like what Pakistanis do.

Your Chinese citizens doesn't know what defeat is. Disappointing. We Indians recognize are defeats, that's what make us strong.

 

[Kumata]

This is an article written by Hemant Rout in the New Indian Express. His sourcing is a bit hit and miss, generally good in the past......



The MICA comes in a radar homing as well as an IR variant. It was not specifed as to which of the 2 variants were tested or whether both were tested. I was reading on another site (cant get hold of it now) that France finally agreed to let India integrate the Mica on the SU-30.

The big un-answered question is if the ARH version of the Mica has been integrated with the SU-30, what does that say about the Astra? Is it performance issues or lack of production? Probably the latter I feel, given the Ladakh situation the IAF probably wants all missiles in large numbers in inventory.

IAF test fires air-to-air missiles ahead of Rafale integration

think you mean russia here...

 

[cereal killer]

Sorry , I don't know about this , this is a very small issue in China history after 1949.

I have learned Chinese army fighting against USA and UN at Korea for 3 years.
1962 with India (not said too much, because its very short , only a month.)
197* with USSR , also very short , but China prepared for total war, very dangerous situation.
198* with Vietnam , for 10 years.

I suggest you look at neutral perspective Wherever you find it don't believe in your CCP & textbooks. In 1962 both India & China lost almost similar soldiers but China won there is no denying that. Yes it was a short war.
1967 is PRC's only defeat since 1949 that is also a fact. That is why Sikkim is now with India.

 

[Cheran]

 

[johnq]

Ah, so now we get to the core of China's game. Chinese want to keep stealing Indian land, but Chinese propagandists want to keep convincing the Indian people that everything is okay, so they don't lose business revenue from India and elsewhere. The rest of the world should ban all Chinese products and companies should move all production out of China. That will hurt them economically so they cannot keep manufacturing weapons and paying their soldiers. Then India, US, and all democracies should unite and attack Chinese military and destroy it. Blow up all Chinese roads, bridges, railroads, dams and other infrastructure in Chinese enslaved territories like Xinjiang, Tibet, Aksai Chin, etc. Free and arm the Tibetan and Uyghur slaves to rise up against the Han Chinese, and do the same in Hong Kong. It's too late for these Han Chinese who have been told lies by their government since they were little children (such as the lies about Tibet); they must be stopped or they will destroy the world, as they have already started with the Chinese viral biological weapon Covid.

 

[HKedifier]

I suggest you look at neutral perspective Wherever you find it don't believe in your CCP & textbooks. In 1962 both India & China lost almost similar soldiers but China won there is no denying that. Yes it was a short war.
1967 is PRC's only defeat since 1949 that is also a fact. That is why Sikkim is now with India.

If you are happy , OK, yes , 1967 PRC's only defected by India.

Even China won USA and UN , and USSR.

 

[HKedifier]

Some info is correct, but your country doesn't talk about the 1967 skirmish with India. Meaning they were defeated. Hence the education system didn't allowed it to be taught to the children, much like what Pakistanis do.

Your Chinese citizens doesn't know what defeat is. Disappointing. We Indians recognize are defeats, that's what make us strong.

History book only teach big things , small things it don't teach.

I don't know China win or lose at 1967 with India.

If you said India win , OK , just as you said.

Not care too much about 1967 , care about now , and also focus on future my friend.

 

[garg_bharat]

History book only teach big things , small things it don't teach.

I don't know China win or lose at 1967 with India.

If you said India win , OK , just as you said.

Not care too much about 1967 , care about now , and also focus on future my friend.

China can lose 100 million people in a nuclear war. Just think about that and reflect.

This India-China shit is nothing.