India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Bhurki]

Once it recognizes an enemy the US deep state has a consistent policy irrespective of the party in power at the White House or the US Legislature. The other side of the coin also holds true when the US recognizes a friend, it overlooks many shortcomings in that friend. Cuba is a prime example of the former where it's role in hosting Soviet missiles that threatened the survival of the US has not been forgotten for decades and of course the former USSR where the US did not rest until the Soviet bloc and the Soviet Union were dismantled. Pakistan is an example of the latter. The help in Afghanistan in defeating the USSR and driving them out and the opening up to China for Nixon/Kissinger bought Pakistan a very long rope where many of it's subsequent sins have been brushed under the carpet. US policies towards these countries were consistent over decades irrespective of which party was in power.

In India on the other hand, every PM comes to power thinking that he will be able to do something which none of his predecessors have been able to do i.e peace with Pakistan and to appease China ignoring history because there is no institutional memory. After being punched in the teeth a few times, they all come to their senses. There is no institutional commitment to recognize China and Pakistan as enemies which they are and to work towards their defeat by whatever means including alliances if needed. Unfortunately ideology trumps common sense. "Strategic autonomy" is preferably to "alliance", even if strategic autonomy allows the Chinese and Pakistan sores to fester.

Instituional memory is why bureaucracy exists. The reason for having an IAS, IFS officer be in charge of a certain institution is that it ascertains some sort of passover of previous policy decisions and future trends to every new government.

These men are 'supposed' to remind every new policymaker of the results of past decisions and correct course for future. But the fact that most of the bureaucracy depends on the political people in a really unruly manner doesn't just take away the independent capabilities of these men and the institutions they hold, but also cripples the decision makers almost entirely of any internal governmental past experiences, unless one explicitly asks for them.

 

[ezsasa]

Once it recognizes an enemy the US deep state has a consistent policy irrespective of the party in power at the White House or the US Legislature. The other side of the coin also holds true when the US recognizes a friend, it overlooks many shortcomings in that friend. Cuba is a prime example of the former where it's role in hosting Soviet missiles that threatened the survival of the US has not been forgotten for decades and of course the former USSR where the US did not rest until the Soviet bloc and the Soviet Union were dismantled. Pakistan is an example of the latter. The help in Afghanistan in defeating the USSR and driving them out and the opening up to China for Nixon/Kissinger bought Pakistan a very long rope where many of it's subsequent sins have been brushed under the carpet. US policies towards these countries were consistent over decades irrespective of which party was in power.

In India on the other hand, every PM comes to power thinking that he will be able to do something which none of his predecessors have been able to do i.e peace with Pakistan and to appease China ignoring history because there is no institutional memory. After being punched in the teeth a few times, they all come to their senses. There is no institutional commitment to recognize China and Pakistan as enemies which they are and to work towards their defeat by whatever means including alliances if needed. Unfortunately ideology trumps common sense. "Strategic autonomy" is preferably to "alliance", even if strategic autonomy allows the Chinese and Pakistan sores to fester.

and yet i don't see U.S waking up to CCP, there is only talk and posturing from American side. i don't think the American "establishment" has made up their mind yet.

even if they have made up their minds, they would prefer to go into a cold war with CCP rather than a military confrontation. a cold war is less risky to the U.S than an all out world war.

it's too early to say anyways. when american security establishment has plans for someone, that country or group starts showing up as villians in their films, TV shows & video games. so far i haven't noticed CCP being shown as villains in their popular culture.

as far as india is concerned, at this point in time India's security policy is a defensive doctrine. unless defence is strong, going on a offence may not be prudent because we don't the luxury of living on a big protected island like U.S or U.K, or surrounded by friends like france.

 

[nick_indian]

Which plane are we most likely to buy under the MRCA or MRFA to challenge the Chinkis ?

 

[LDev]

and yet i don't see U.S waking up to CCP, there is only talk and posturing from American side. i don't think the American "establishment" has made up their mind yet.

even if they have made up their minds, they would prefer to go into a cold war with CCP rather than a military confrontation. a cold war is less risky to the U.S than an all out world war.

it's too early to say anyways. when american security establishment has plans for someone, that country or group starts showing up as villians in their films, TV shows & video games. so far i haven't noticed CCP being shown as villains in their popular culture.

as far as india is concerned, at this point in time India's security policy is a defensive doctrine. unless defence is strong, going on a offence may not be prudent because we don't the luxury of living on a big protected island like U.S or U.K, or surrounded by friends like france.

Because of the very partisan nature of current US politics, before the elections, it is difficult to parse as to whether the Democratic Party also believes in the current Trump hardline towards China. But I won't be surprised if behind the scenes there has been a fast anti China pivot within the Democratic Party. Things will be clearer after the election rhetoric is finished. But the US and China are on a collision course, no mistake about that, even if China is not shown as the villain in popular culture and that is primarily because China is part of the dollar trading system. But the economic strangulation of China via the dollar system will continue. There have been huge dollar shortages in Hong Kong as well as mainland China with people wanting to change Yuan/HK dollars to dollars turned away by banks

For India for now, deterrence has to be rooted in a strong defence so that China is not tempted to go for another round of salami slicing.

 

[cannonfodder]

Because of the very partisan nature of current US politics, before the elections, it is difficult to parse as to whether the Democratic Party also believes in the current Trump hardline towards China. But I won't be surprised if behind the scenes there has been a fast anti China pivot within the Democratic Party. Things will be clearer after the election rhetoric is finished. But the US and China are on a collision course, no mistake about that, even if China is not shown as the villain in popular culture and that is primarily because China is part of the dollar trading system. But the economic strangulation of China via the dollar system will continue. There have been huge dollar shortages in Hong Kong as well as mainland China with people wanting to change Yuan/HK dollars to dollars turned away by banks

For India for now, deterrence has to be rooted in a strong defence so that China is not tempted to go for another round of salami slicing.

@ezsasa
To be fair, there is only steve bannon's "war room pandamic" that is openly condemning CCP. Other than that republicans are blaming CCP so that to divert some blame due to impending elections. This is unprecedented situation in terms of economy - unemployment. But this may be posturing to get better trade deal and make CCP walk the trade deal path.

News channels favoring democrats want all blame to pushed down on republican throat. So you are right they wont utter anything bad on CCP.

The true test is only if WallStreet is made to shift factories. I am skeptical neither of them will do it and there will high resistance to it. Lets see what happens. Critical industries will be shifted back to US due to rising suspicion between 2 countries.

 

[patriots]

Various aircraft s deployed by China ..in hotan airbase......
J7

H6 bomber

Su27

Aewacs

J10

May be 2* j20

Not a satellite expert. But tried ..... please correct me ....
Bdw photo credit to me.......
Photo s taken in different dates on that base

 

[another_armchair]

I see a Chinese hand in the recent Congress+Opposition outrage over Facebook.

Why would NYTimes do a hit job on Facebook targeting both BJP and Zuckerberg?

Was it over banning TikTok or over Facebook's fat investment in Jio?

Congress is anyway in the chor pocket of CCP's pants so the former going shrill is a nobrainer.

 

[Cactus09]

Chinese Stealth Fighters Head West To Confront India

Two Chinese air force J-20 stealth fighters have appeared at an air base in China’s far west as the mountain stand-off between India and Chine enters its fourth months.

www.forbes.com

 

[Sehwag213]

I see a Chinese hand in the recent Congress+Opposition outrage over Facebook.

Why would NYTimes do a hit job on Facebook targeting both BJP and Zuckerberg?

Was it over banning TikTok or over Facebook's fat investment in Jio?

Congress is anyway in the chor pocket of CCP's pants so the former going shrill is a nobrainer.

I also feel the same. Accusation of being biased simply won't work because Instagram is also owned by Facebook which is completely dominated by leftists

Or does Facebook favours Trump , so leftists are taking revenge ?

 

[Sehwag213]

The onus is on BJP's vast youth base to dig dirt on Congress hate speech by Congress poodles and its Chuslim voterbase on Facebook and Twitter.
Else it will be another lost opportunity.

They have already done that. The question is whether BJP's top leadership is willing to go after Sonia ?
This is from Article on Facebook by BJP IT cell head on TOI yesterday

 

[Suryavanshi]

J20 at Hotan

Propaganda ki bhi had hoti hai.
This shit isn't even a mature platform and they have already deployed them on frontline.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Which plane are we most likely to buy under the MRCA or MRFA to challenge the Chinkis ?

Realistically we should try to make 100+ Rafale as according to Previous Plan.
And then no more fighter jet import not even if we are offered F22,F 35, Su57.

Meanwhile we need refulers, AWACs, armed Drone.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

@Sehwag213 @another_armchair

In my opinion. Congress thinks that people talking against them in social media channels are basically BJP IT cell workers. But they are unable to fathom the thought that majority of the populous is against them. The real populous, not the ones with fake handles and fake profiles like the ISI and CCP ones.

Its only shows the frustration within the Congress party as they are going against facebook.

 

[another_armchair]

Realistically we should try to make 100+ Rafale as according to Previous Plan.
And then no more fighter jet import not even if we are offered F22,F 35, Su57.

Meanwhile we need refulers, AWACs, armed Drone.

Glad someone understands the absolute daftness of ordering 36 in a piecemeal order.

 

[another_armchair]

@Sehwag213 @another_armchair

In my opinion. Congress thinks that people talking against them in social media channels are basically BJP IT cell workers. But they are unable to fathom the thought that majority of the populous is against them. The real populous, not the ones with fake handles and fake profiles like the ISI and CCP ones.

Its only shows the frustration within the Congress party as they are going against facebook.

They neither understand nor respect the sheer loath against the Gandhi parivaar and their style of politics.

Funnily, Congress which projected itself as the messiah of downtrodden in the garb of socialism and anti-feudalism is the most feudal party in Indian history and has feudal parties as alliance partners like RJD, SP, NCP, JMM and sundry others.

Nothing can be a greater validation of their rejection by right thinking Indians that Rahul Gandhi had to stand for elections in a Muslim majority district to secure his Lok Sabha seat. If this isn't communal politics, what is?

One only has to open Google Maps and type Mallapuram or Wayanad and zoom in to understand the demographics on religious lines.

While it may be OT and should be moved to the chit-chat thread imo, given how Congress is colluding with the CPC, its relevance can't be overlooked.

 

[Suryavanshi]

U know what this would have been the perfect time to boost NAL saras MK2 70 seat variant.
It could have served the purpose of AWACS.

Knowing the incompetence of NAL I dont think we are gonna see Saaras mk1 until 2030 let alone mk2.

 

[BangaliBabu]

U know what this would have been the perfect time to boost NAL saras MK2 70 seat variant.
It could have served the purpose of AWACS.

Knowing the incompetence of NAL I dont think we are gonna see Saaras mk1 until 2030 let alone mk2.

Full form of NAL - National Aerospace Laboratories. They're competent enough. If the domestic private sectors have any more shame left, they should whole-heartedly invest in NAL's concepts. Aerospace sector takes time, money and losses, but a successful product will always give long term returns.

Our private sector wants easy money. Even today if I want to set up an automobile factory, albeit with a little more investment than contemporary domestic players in the market, I still cannot expect a simple thing as a gear (manufactured by Tata) in my product, cause they won't sell this to me even for money and full IP control. I've to start from scratch a thing that already exists in the market. That's how much narrow-minded and cocooned our established private sector is. They eliminate competition at the start without realising that long term gains only happen in increasing competitiveness, not otherwise.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Full form of NAL - National Aerospace Laboratories. They're competent enough.

What kind of facilities do they have in their disposal.

MESCO aeropace was in talks with NAL for JV. But looks like they don't have much expertise. They maintain Private Jets, aircraft recycle and small aerospace Parts manufacturer.

 

[A chauhan]

Baba talking sane :-

 

[Suryavanshi]

Some Hindustan times Journalist Niggi has asked how many Defense company does India even have sarcastically.

well there are 22 such pages in PDF