India-China 2020 Border conflict

[johnq]

Diplomacy can only be backup up by hard power. Indian officials have neglected the armed forces for far too long, if this affair (whatever the outcome of it is in the end) doesn't wake our babus up, then nothing will.

Yes, but they could've pressured PLA to back away from Depsang, especially since PLA is more desparate to pull back since they are less experienced. India meanwhile has several decades of experience from deployment in Siachen. India could've stayed put and continued to make countermoves and pressured PLA to leave LAC completely.
India has enough hard power, it just isn't allowed to exercise it by the bureaucrats.
China is still less capable than India militarily, they are just better at lying about it to scare their adversaries into submission. Enough to scare ignorant bureaucrats to negotiate away Indian land.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

So, as per Nitin Gokhale, we aren't pulling infantry back from Kailash range.. right ?

 

[DownWithCCP]

I like how a lot of people here are gaslighting and concern trolling over disengagement as if India has lost everything. If the standoff gets resolved, the clear victor emerging out of it are the Indians, Galwan showed the world what we are capable of when faced with treachery, the fact that it is the chinese that have soften their stance and are pushing for talks after the actions of 29/30 August is another feather in our cap, economic boycott seems to have worked in our favor. This engagement has put to test the logistics capability of the IA and the results have been excellent, whatever objectives the PLA had come with, it seems to have fallen short of completing.

It was the PLA that had diverted a huge quantum of forces from the Tibet exercise to Ladakh for deployment along the LAC, if the current disengagement process is implemented, it calls for the complete reversal of the minute territorial gains made by the PLA for which it had to pay a high cost militarily as well as market wise.

1)If the objective was to stop border road construction and infrastructure development, then the PLA has failed spectacularly.

2)If the objective was to cut off DBO then in that too they have failed.

3)If the objective was to teach a lesson and scare India into accepting china as its superior, in that too it has been a spectacular failure(as is seen by economic measures, QUAD, and invitation of Australia to the Malabar exercises)

4)Increased cooperation with the USA, which is beneficial for India for the time being and foreseeable future.

5)It is now clear that had there been a skirmish of sorts IA would have easily had the upper hand over PLA

However the biggest mistake seems to have been the intelligence failure that led to events spiraling out of control for the better part of this standoff.

1)A non aggressive and almost meek MEA had almost led to a loss of narrative from our side.

2)Inability to stop or counter incoming Chinese propaganda(not via SM but mainstream newspapers, mainly THE HINDU, surprisingly TV news Media)

3)The apparent hesitation by the MEA and GOI to use aggressive military actions to counter China, not resorting to which we must be ready for further standoffs like this in the near future(hell this standoff too is not resolved as of the day I am writing this post).

4)Indigenous manufacturing of high quality winter clothing is completely missing.

 

[DownWithCCP]

So, as per Nitin Gokhale, we aren't pulling infantry back from Kailash range.. right ?

Yes as per the agreement in the previous round of military talks.

 

[johnq]

If the PLA wasn't planning to backstab, why build this road, or the several other roads and tunnels and infrastructure?

 

[Sentimental Patriot]

If the PLA wasn't planning to backstab, why build this road, or the several other roads and tunnels and infrastructure?

Chinese have been building infrastructure along the border areas for years now, India's priority now should be to hold the line as best as it can and build our own infrastructure and roads for any future skirmish/war.

India should also be building up its tactical nuclear arsenal, Indo-Tibet border areas would he a prime location to deploy tactical nukes as these areas are not heavily populated and in most cases have no people at all (apart from military)

 

[johnq]

I like how a lot of people here are gaslighting and concern trolling over disengagement as if India has lost everything. If the standoff gets resolved, the clear victor emerging out of it are the Indians, Galwan showed the world what we are capable of when faced with treachery, the fact that it is the chinese that have soften their stance and are pushing for talks after the actions of 29/30 August is another feather in our cap, economic boycott seems to have worked in our favor. This engagement has put to test the logistics capability of the IA and the results have been excellent, whatever objectives the PLA had come with, it seems to have fallen short of completing.

It was the PLA that had diverted a huge quantum of forces from the Tibet exercise to Ladakh for deployment along the LAC, if the current disengagement process is implemented, it calls for the complete reversal of the minute territorial gains made by the PLA for which it had to pay a high cost militarily as well as market wise.

1)If the objective was to stop border road construction and infrastructure development, then the PLA has failed spectacularly.

2)If the objective was to cut off DBO then in that too they have failed.

3)If the objective was to teach a lesson and scare India into accepting china as its superior, in that too it has been a spectacular failure(as is seen by economic measures, QUAD, and invitation of Australia to the Malabar exercises)

4)Increased cooperation with the USA, which is beneficial for India for the time being and foreseeable future.

5)It is now clear that had there been a skirmish of sorts IA would have easily had the upper hand over PLA

However the biggest mistake seems to have been the intelligence failure that led to events spiraling out of control for the better part of this standoff.

1)A non aggressive and almost meek MEA had almost led to a loss of narrative from our side.

2)Inability to stop or counter incoming Chinese propaganda(not via SM but mainstream newspapers, mainly THE HINDU, surprisingly TV news Media)

3)The apparent hesitation by the MEA and GOI to use aggressive military actions to counter China, not resorting to which we must be ready for further standoffs like this in the near future(hell this standoff too is not resolved as of the day I am writing this post).

4)Indigenous manufacturing of high quality winter clothing is completely missing.

The fact is that the road to DBO is still cut off by PLA intrusions in Depsang, thus turning it into no man's land. This road is well within Indian side of LAC. The Indian side could've persisted with countermoves to push PLA back from LAC even in Depsang, but that requires willpower, which pencil-pusher bureaucrats have always lacked.

 

[mist_consecutive]

The fact is that the road to DBO is still cut off by PLA intrusions in Depsang, thus turning it into no man's land. This road is well within Indian side of LAC. The Indian side could've persisted with countermoves to push PLA back from LAC even in Depsang, but that requires willpower, which pencil-pusher bureaucrats have always lacked.

What? Who told you this? This is complete misinformation. DBO road is well opened.

 

[DownWithCCP]

The fact is that the road to DBO is still cut off by PLA intrusions in Depsang, thus turning it into no man's land. This road is well within Indian side of LAC. The Indian side could've persisted with countermoves to push PLA back from LAC even in Depsang, but that requires willpower, which pencil-pusher bureaucrats have always lacked.

Depsang has been a problem since 2013, I was talking in the context of the current points of contention that have come to play after PLA's action in April/May. However I mostly agree with what you have said wrt to willpower of bureaucrats when it comes to issues like these, they do not like to get their hands dirty, and from what I have learnt Modi trusts them a bit too much.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

The fact is that the road to DBO is still cut off by PLA intrusions in Depsang, thus turning it into no man's land. This road is well within Indian side of LAC. The Indian side could've persisted with countermoves to push PLA back from LAC even in Depsang, but that requires willpower, which pencil-pusher bureaucrats have always lacked.

Road to DBO(DSDBO Road) has always been under our control

 

[johnq]

What? Who told you this? This is complete misinformation. DBO road is well opened.

No, the road may be there, but PLA intrusions at Depsang stop Indian side from using it, even though it's well within Indian side of LAC: thus effectively turning it into no-man's-land. There is a second branch road that they have built to access DBO airfield that is deeper within Indian side, but that is beside the point. The fact is that India is being blocked from using a road well within its side of LAC, while China is free to use all roads on its side of the LAC.

 

[fire starter]

No, the road may be there, but PLA intrusions at Depsang stop Indian side from using it, even though it's well within Indian side of LAC: thus effectively turning it into no-man's-land. There is a second branch road that they have built to access DBO airfield that is deeper within Indian side, but that is beside the point. The fact is that India is being blocked from using a road well within its side of LAC, while China is free to use all roads on its side of the LAC.

The area where PLA is stopping us to patrol doesn't have any road we patrol in there by foot.

 

[Hari Sud]

Ladakh disengagement breakthrough! China to withdraw to Finger 8; PLA tanks to retreat

The entire disengagement process is expected to be completed by April-May, 2021.

www.timesnownews.com

Ladakh disengagement breakthrough! China to withdraw to Finger 8; PLA tanks to retreat
India


Times Now Bureau
Updated Nov 11, 2020 | 14:33 IST

The entire disengagement process is expected to be completed by April-May, 2021.


New Delhi: In a big development as regards disengagement talks between India and China are concerned, Times Now has learned that the People’s Liberation Army has agreed to withdraw to Finger 8 on the north bank of Pangong Tso (lake) in eastern Ladakh.
Srinjoy Chowdhury reports that China has agreed to retreat to Finger 8, which as per India is the Line of Actual Control in Pangong Tso area.
The agreement has been reached as part of the military and diplomatic talks that have been going on between the two armies and countries for months now.
The entire disengagement process is expected to be completed by April-May, 2021.
As part of the process, the first step would be for Chinese and Indian troops to retreat from contact points, where the troops are positioned very close to each other.

Then, the Chinese troops, who have come forward and occupied areas till Finger 4, will withdraw from North Bank of Pangong Tso in three phases - 33% each time.
Further, around 400 Chinese tanks will go back first from the Spanggur gap on the south bank of Pangong Tso. There are an enormous number of Chinese tanks and armoured vehicles in the Spanggur gap and Depsang area of eastern Ladakh.
Srinjoy reports that all this will take a long, long time and entire disengagement will likely happen by April-May, 2021. Nothing has so far happened on the ground, he adds.

It was reported that as part of the agreement reached between India and China, both sides would move back their troops to respective positions as existed before April-May this year.
The agreement on the disengagement plan was reached during the 8th Corps Commander-level talks held on November 6 in Chushul, on the Indian side of the LAC.
Ministry of External Affairs' Joint Secretary Naveen Shrivastava and Brigadier Ghai of the Directorate General of Military Operations had also taken in the talks last week.

There is not enough space to maneuver 400 tanks in the Spanggur Gap, let alone fight. The reporter in his enthusiasm has added extra zeros to sensationalize his reporting.

 

[fire starter]

huge loss.

 

[mokoman]

deescalation finally happens but sadly @utubekhiladi is nowhere to be seen.

i think the Biden liberation army probably rounded him up and put him in one the antifa labour camps.

He is probably there stitching feminist T shirts.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

No, the road may be there, but PLA intrusions at Depsang stop Indian side from using it, even though it's well within Indian side of LAC: thus effectively turning it into no-man's-land. There is a second branch road that they have built to access DBO airfield that is deeper within Indian side, but that is beside the point. The fact is that India is being blocked from using a road well within its side of LAC, while China is free to use all roads on its side of the LAC.

The chinese intrusions upto Y junction has always been there, as also the threat to the road. In fact, the chinese threat to the area that the DSDBO road passes through in Sub sector north as well as near Galwan , existed from before the road itself came into existence .. That does not stop us from using the road. Also, safer alternative routes are being built

 

[mist_consecutive]

No, the road may be there, but PLA intrusions at Depsang stop Indian side from using it, even though it's well within Indian side of LAC: thus effectively turning it into no-man's-land. There is a second branch road that they have built to access DBO airfield that is deeper within Indian side, but that is beside the point. The fact is that India is being blocked from using a road well within its side of LAC, while China is free to use all roads on its side of the LAC.

Can you kindly provide me the source? I am hearing it for the first time.

The intrusion happened is in Y-junction, whose legacy is kinda like F8 (it was seldom patrolled and never fully under our control).
DBO road is nowhere near it.

In fact, Google Earth has updated DBO area with the latest satellite image of July, you can go and see in high resolution our camps and road wide open.

 

[Tuco]

If cheen remains true to their word and de-escalation do happen will all the "emergency purchases" be rationalized?

 

[mist_consecutive]

Pangong Tso Update

Pangong Tso area has experienced the season's first snowfall and snow has started to accumulate on the peaks. Rezang La/Rechin La, as well as Mukhpari, have been covered in snow, making any Chinese assault on the peaks very difficult, if not impossible.

(Image dates - 10th Nov vs. 1st Oct)

On the northern Pangong Tso side, where we are deadlocked against China on the ridges of F4, there has been no change except for both sides digging in and adding more tents and structures.

But, for the first time, I have been able to observe the much-discussed Indian army positions on the upper ridges of F4 overlooking the Chinese positions. A strategic feat that gives us direct LoS of F4-F5 area as well as Sirijap.
@mokoman @Hellfire

(Image dates - 10th Nov vs. 1st Oct)

To give a sense of what our soldiers are facing, the higher positions of F4 ridge are at a whopping 5300m above sea level, where oxygen levels are half of what is present at sea level.

For a closer look

Source - Sentinel L1C

 

[daya]

Why did the Chinese attack our brave-hearts? Was it a pre-planned move or spontaneous action?

People here are not taking it seriously, but it is dead serious...