India-China 2020 Border conflict

Tshering22

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My biggest fear about the latest agreement (stopping the Indian military from adding more soldiers to their positions on the LAC) is that the Chinese may eventually show up with 10 times as many soldiers, and surround and overrun the Indian positions. I am 100% certain that the Chinese are already breaking the agreement, while the MEA is forcing the Indian military to follow it.
Apparently, and surprisingly, we are not doing the same bullshit we did in the past years; according to some retired Chinese general, over 100,000 IA soldiers are looking directly into the area. T-90s and BMPs are already there positioned.

Basically, we have been using the talks to amass resources on the border as well, just like the PLA. That's why they are upset and whining. Although I wouldn't trust a Communist with a 10-foot pole, here is what one of their "generals" has to say:

China-India border row: Stay alert for surprise Indian attack, retired PLA general
 

Dessert Storm

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Apparently, and surprisingly, we are not doing the same bullshit we did in the past years; according to some retired Chinese general, over 100,000 IA soldiers are looking directly into the area. T-90s and BMPs are already there positioned.

Basically, we have been using the talks to amass resources on the border as well, just like the PLA. That's why they are upset and whining. Although I wouldn't trust a Communist with a 10-foot pole, here is what one of their "generals" has to say:

China-India border row: Stay alert for surprise Indian attack, retired PLA general
Sure. That General read it right. Neither the Indians nor the Americans are there to just burn up Rs. and $ to go back without substantial gains.
 

Tshering22

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Blacklisting is supposed to act as a deterrent to foreign firms not to offer bribes. But blacklisting has a negative impact on the ability of the Indian armed forces to get equipment. What about a stronger deterrent for Indian babus/netas/officers to stop asking for bribes instead? Like immediate imprisonment and the death sentence if convicted? Won't that be a smarter option? A better deterrent?
If we were a more controlled democracy like Taiwan, Hong Kong or Singapore, then it would be possible as there would be better controls. But we follow the neo-anarchist model of democracy that the Europeans follow. SO it would be impossible without a flurry of riots, protests, breaking of public property, etc. by the goons of whoever was found committing such things.
 

Synergy

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Meteor ? Don't add it yourself not on Tejas mk1/mk1a

Astra mk2 : when it will come we will see most airforce already employs AMRAAM for decades.

What abt mk2 ?

Mk2 is the real Tejas , mk1a is stop gap as ADA couldn't deliver a refined Tejas on time.
we couldn't get meteor as French were reluctant to integrate that with Israeli radar. so we may get it after integrating uttam with Tejas.

Astra Mk2 should be ready within 2/3 years or so. and it will be at par (if not better than) with meteor and way better than amraam or Chinese missiles.
 

Sentimental Patriot

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The video isn't right.. It says 'Han Chinese wouldn't justify killing other han Chinese'. Which is wrong!!!! Since when Xitler started to care about people??

And also Taiwan has a major Japanese influence which just don't fit with the typical mainland mentality.

But the way the guy said that US law makers are warmongers. I am convinced it's a soft propaganda video by the CCP.
This guy is an American anti-interventionist type.

I'd tend to agree with most of what he says, there is a lot of tourism between ROC and PRC, they are both the same ethnic group and old rivalries will slowly start to die down. I am just saying PRC won't invade, if the two do end up reuniting, it will be with ROCs consent.

ROC also has claims on Arunchal Pradesh just like the PRC and is likely cheering on the PLA adventure in Ladakh behind the scenes, they are actually far more grandiose in their claims than even the PRC, which is to be expected as the KMT were nationalists.


1920px-ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg.png
24724516790_95a3803aa0_h.jpg
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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we couldn't get meteor as French were reluctant to integrate that with Israeli radar. so we may get it after integrating uttam with Tejas.

Astra Mk2 should be ready within 2/3 years or so. and it will be at par (if not better than) with meteor and way better than amraam or Chinese missiles.
Tejas is still better than any 4th generation aircraft available because it’s indigenous and we can constantly modify and upgrade it according to our requirements and every Airforce will use 4th generation jets till 2040-45
 

Tshering22

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Sure. That General read it right. Neither the Indians nor the Americans are there to just burn up Rs. and $ to go back without substantial gains.
I really hope that this conflict is a watershed moment for the defence industry in India and that during/after this whole episode, PM Modi takes emergency measures to allow as many Indian defence companies to get in. The more we supplement our imported weapons with indigenous weapons and push them for testing during the war, the more our confidence will increase; apart from retaining the money within the Indian economy and boosting defence industry.

Honestly, a part of me wants to see some form of escalation which may not be a war but gives China the idea that they will also go down, and hence they back out.

We have lived enough number of years looking back over our shoulders.

Time to take the fight into Tibet.

But this war will have to be also fought on information front; meaning that role will be on civilians to flood their social media with videos of their defeat as it happens.
 

Tshering22

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This guy is an American anti-interventionist type.

I'd tend to agree with most of what he says, there is a lot of tourism between ROC and PRC, they are both the same ethnic group and old rivalries will slowly start to die down. I am just saying PRC won't invade, if the two do end up reuniting, it will be with ROCs consent.

ROC also has claims on Arunchal Pradesh just like the PRC and is likely cheering on the PLA adventure in Ladakh behind the scenes, they are actually far more grandiose in their claims than even the PRC, which is to be expected as the KMT were nationalists.


View attachment 60539View attachment 60540
Taiwan was always a threat to India even after winning the WW2. They never really made claims then as they had to start working from scratch and they just had a tiny island. The question is, in a future scenario where if CCP goes down and Taiwan restores entire One China, will it attack us again.

The only way to offset is to use any confrontation as an excuse and have a plan to separate Tibet from the rest of the land. The faster there is an independent Tibet, the more chance India has for stationing her forces in support of Tibet, looking directly at Qinghai and Sichuan and keeping the new China in check. Another non-military option in such a scenario would be that the new China would be democratic and bound by international agreements. So we could negotiate with them into agreeing to maintain Tibet as a buffer zone and avoid future wars.

We might also want to restore POK back into our territory as well as Shaksgam Valley. I would like to add the Wakhan Corridor through commercial negotiations with Afghanistan (since Taiwan claims it), but that would be pushing it.

But we need to restore our territory proper before another threat comes to our door knocking.

That will happen only once they manage to get control of the mainland after a brutal war with the communists. There is enough time to worry about that later.

____________________________--

India has no other option except to strengthen her indigenous defence industry and economy to a point where the future USA, new China, Europe etc. see us as competitors but also someone who can be dangerous if confronted with force.

India under proper policies and a Modi-style administration will be exactly where China is today, in another 10-15 years. At that time, the USA and the EU won't be cheering for us so much just because we are a democracy.

We could, of course, be a slightly edited or modified version of democracy that suits our civilizational identity, demographic and geopolitical realities.

Remember that.
 

Blue Water Navy

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This guy is an American anti-interventionist type.

I'd tend to agree with most of what he says, there is a lot of tourism between ROC and PRC, they are both the same ethnic group and old rivalries will slowly start to die down. I am just saying PRC won't invade, if the two do end up reuniting, it will be with ROCs consent.

ROC also has claims on Arunchal Pradesh just like the PRC and is likely cheering on the PLA adventure in Ladakh behind the scenes, they are actually far more grandiose in their claims than even the PRC, which is to be expected as the KMT were nationalists.


View attachment 60539View attachment 60540
You could have just said trade... But you said tourism...Anyway, I couldn't care less about what you think!!:dude:

And again why get bothered about ROC claiming Arunachal Pradesh.. They claim...So, what??? huh??

It's far better to deal with a democratic Govt. like the Taiwan rather than uncivilized, barbaric, back stabbing commies who has an ulterior motive in everything.:rage:
 
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Flying Dagger

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we couldn't get meteor as French were reluctant to integrate that with Israeli radar. so we may get it after integrating uttam with Tejas.

Astra Mk2 should be ready within 2/3 years or so. and it will be at par (if not better than) with meteor and way better than amraam or Chinese missiles.
It's MBDA not just french they did said they will consider Uttam perhaps. But Uttam isn't coming for mk1a .

Astra mk2 won't be inducted in 2-3 years..

And it is nowhere around meteor which has Ramjet propulsion with much advanced electronics and seeker.

And it won't be way better than AMRAAM either

Prediction is the game Indian always win it's reality which bites us.
 

Sentimental Patriot

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You could have just said trade... But you said tourism...Anyway, I couldn't care less about what you think!!:dude:

And again why get bothered about ROC claiming Arunchal Pradesh.. They claim...So, what??? huh??

It's far better to deal with a democratic Govt. like the Taiwan rather than uncivilized, barbaric, back stabbing commies who has an ulterior motive in everything.:rage:
Not really, international relations are based on strategic considerations rather than the form of government that country has. This talk of "democracy" is most American propaganda, they claim to love democracy but had no problem with siding with the genocidal military dictatorship of Pakistan for most of its indepentn history for example.


My point is that there is no real point in investing your hopes in something breaking out between PRC and ROC, and the ROC are not really our friends either as they claim our territories as their own as well despite being a "democracy"
 

Destrius

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The official map of the Republic of China is irrelevant and has no impact with our ties to Taiwan. The only reason it's still there is to appease China. If Taiwan alters their official map, it establishes a precedent for them to restrict their territorial claims to only the island of Taiwan and outlying islands. Only 2% of Taiwanese identify as Chinese so it's best to just ignore that map.
 

shade

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You could have just said trade... But you said tourism...Anyway, I couldn't care less about what you think!!:dude:

And again why get bothered about ROC claiming Arunachal Pradesh.. They claim...So, what??? huh??

It's far better to deal with a democratic Govt. like the Taiwan rather than uncivilized, barbaric, back stabbing commies who has an ulterior motive in everything
.:rage:
Commie only in name and trappings, what you see here, in Tibet, in Uyghuristan is Han Chinese nationalism at work.
Nationalism has been their crutch and main method of control after Tiananmen Square massacre, which was promoted by CCP to fill the void left in the Chinese pleb's mind by the removal of actual Maoist ideology in state policies.
Earlier Chinks used to be indoctrinated in commie propaganda, now it's about muh "5000 year old ancient civilization Superpower, that will take it's rightful place after a Century of Humiliation at the hands of the corrupt and the foreigner".

Even Democratic Chinese would behave in the same way, without the degree of control the CCP has however.
 

omaebakabaka

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It's MBDA not just french they did said they will consider Uttam perhaps. But Uttam isn't coming for mk1a .

Astra mk2 won't be inducted in 2-3 years..

And it is nowhere around meteor which has Ramjet propulsion with much advanced electronics and seeker.

And it won't be way better than AMRAAM either

Prediction is the game Indian always win it's reality which bites us.
I agree, baby steps....we don't have to be king of the hill right away. I would take anything that is close to average in each class that we are trying to go indigenous in the next 3 to 5 years.
 

shade

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Commie only in name and trappings, what you see here, in Tibet, in Uyghuristan is Han Chinese nationalism at work.
Nationalism has been their crutch and main method of control after Tiananmen Square massacre, which was promoted by CCP to fill the void left in the Chinese pleb's mind by the removal of actual Maoist ideology in state policies.
Earlier Chinks used to be indoctrinated in commie propaganda, now it's about muh "5000 year old ancient civilization Superpower, that will take it's rightful place after a Century of Humiliation at the hands of the corrupt and the foreigner".

Even Democratic Chinese would behave in the same way, without the degree of control the CCP has however.
This below linked WaPo article is in detail about what i've said in my above post.
Since their Liberalisation they have discarded communist ideology in their policies in favour of "state capitalism", but with Communist policies being proven a failure after Liberalisation, which led to T Square protests, they had to fall back on Chinese Nationalism to keep the population in check once again, by portraying that CCP is only what stands between the Chinese people and the foreign hordes who seek to give them Century of Humiliation 2.0, and the public believes this, because of the unstoppable rise of PRC since the past 40 years.
It is a feedback loop, the more China is wealthy and powerful, the more does the legitimacy of CCP rule in the average Chong increase, Communism, Maoism sab gaya tel lene bc


How today’s China was shaped by the events in Tiananmen Square 30 years ago

BEIJING — China’s vice president, Wang Qishan, was in no mood for questions when a group of American economists went to see him in a pavilion at Communist Party headquarters in Beijing recently.
Instead, Wang, wearing a tracksuit and slippers, delivered a philosophical, hour-long lecture to scholars from the Peterson Institute for International Economics in which he asserted the supremacy of the Chinese way over Western traditions.

After reminding his visitors that the lives of Socrates and Confucius overlapped, he talked about how Europe ended up as small, splintered states while China became a vast and powerful empire. There was no doubt his critique of the West’s perceived weaknesses also included the present-day United States.

This is the China of today: supremely confident, richer than it could have imagined three decades ago, and more convinced than ever of the rightness of its repressive model of authoritarian political control.

In many ways, this is a direct result of a seismic event that took place 30 years ago Tuesday. On June 4, 1989, unknown numbers of Chinese — hundreds or perhaps thousands — were killed by their own military in response to a huge gathering in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square to call for change.
As many as 1 million people — students from Beijing’s most prestigious universities, later joined by Chinese from all walks of life — had made their way to the heart of the capital. That sparked smaller supporting demonstrations around the country. They were calling for greater transparency, less corruption and, ideally, the opportunity to elect their own government.

The Communist Party of China, which had been in power for 40 years by that stage, viewed the demonstrations as an existential challenge. Its leaders ordered the soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army to clear Tiananmen Square, using whatever means necessary. The soldiers beat people, shot people, ran people over with tanks.
He spent 17 years in prison after Tiananmen. But he will not be silent
“The powerful figures in the country were meant to serve the people, but they turned out to be the enemy of people,” said He Weifang, a Peking University law professor and public intellectual who was involved in the 1989 movement and continues to call for greater freedoms.


After the blood had been washed from the streets, the Communist Party began the great reshaping of the country. It created an implicit compact with the people: You can have economic growth, but you can’t have political freedom.
This bifurcation is more apparent than ever as President Xi Jinping enters his seventh year at the helm of China.
“My generation had so much hope and enthusiasm,” said Liu Suli, who was a 29-year-old university lecturer when he joined the protests in 1989. “We wanted elections, freedom of speech, freedom of association, the ability to demonstrate, education for all.”
Today, however, many academics are banned from talking to foreign media. Officials from government departments and state-owned enterprises are allowed to travel abroad only if they go in pairs. Think tanks and historical journals have been closed.
PostReports: How China erased the Tiananmen massacre
Ideological education has been re-energized in scenes reminiscent of the era of the communist leader Mao Zedong 50 years ago. Students at the top universities are finding Marxist lessons woven into their curriculum. Human rights lawyers have been detained by the scores.

Religion is repressed, none more than Islam. The authorities have razed mosques and locked millions of Uighurs, a largely Muslim ethnic minority, in indoctrination centers in an attempt to instill loyalty to the Chinese state.


Social pressures are building because Xi’s China does not offer a release valve for dissent. “If you’re beating a child, you should allow it to cry,” said He, the intellectual, citing an old Chinese saying. “They should let us cry.”
Meanwhile, China has flourished into the world’s second-largest economy, a global power with 400 million middle-class consumers and a military budget exceeded only by the United States’. It is going toe to toe with Washington on trade and is able to project its influence worldwide by disbursing $1 trillion in loans through its “Belt and Road” infrastructure project.
It is building high-speed trains to rival Japan’s and next-generation telecommunication products that alarm American intelligence agencies.
China tends to its economy with eye toward possible long trade war
China’s reality is one few would have foreseen in 1989. Except maybe Deng Xiaoping, who, as chairman of the Central Military Commission, was ultimately responsible for the massacre.


A decade before the Tiananmen protests, Deng had set out a vision for a more open, free-market economy that also ushered in a wave of foreign, liberal ideas. After he crushed the 1989 protests, Deng quickly tried to forge a more positive legacy for himself and his country.
In 1992, Deng, then 88, set out on a famous journey to accelerate the development of special economic zones in Shenzhen and Guangzhou that were powering China’s transformation into a manufacturing powerhouse.
“It was a shock. Deng came out of nowhere on his Southern Tour,” said Xu Youyu, a former researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. “Everyone was rushing in to get rich. Deng was determined to push through his economic reform vision no matter the cost.”

“But it was apparent: There would be no political reform, only economic reform,” Xu added.

On one level, the numbers have backed up Deng’s vision: Income per capita has soared from $311 in 1989 to $8,826, according to latest World Bank figures.
But the party could not just present its economic accomplishments as justification for its rule. It has also sought to erase its darkest moments, creating the kind of “memory hole” that George Orwell only imagined in his classic dystopian novel “1984.”
“China has been surprisingly successful in erasing the memory of June 4,” said Louisa Lim, the author of “The People’s Republic of Amnesia.”
“They have so many different tools at their disposal, like censoring the Internet, removing any kind of material that mentions June 4 from the bookshops, and making sure that the narrative, when there has to be one, parrots the party line,” Lim said. “Wherever possible, they’ve just removed it.”
High school students, if they are told anything at all on the subject, learn only that there was an “incident” between the spring and summer of 1989. And few Chinese under age 30 recognize the “Tank Man” photo, the quintessential image of the protests in which a man carrying two shopping bags, as if he’d been out shopping for vegetables, stood in the street and stopped a column of tanks.

In the National Museum of China on the edge of Tiananmen Square, there is no mention of the protests or of the government’s response, only a photo of a Communist Party meeting that was held soon after.
Anchors from China’s state TV and Fox are facing off
Today, a history textbook assigned at Peking University — whose students led the 1989 Tiananmen occupation — states that “throughout the student protests and hunger strikes, the party and government exercised great restraint” to deal with “those plotting riots.”


Several students said in interviews that they were cautioned by parents and teachers about discussing the event.
“Even if you know about it, you can’t say anything about it,” said one woman who is about to graduate from one of China’s best universities. The students and other Chinese spoke with The Washington Post on the condition of anonymity to avoid official reprisal.
There has never been a public reckoning about that day. There has never been an official death toll. Most parents received no explanation about how, let alone why, their children died. Some parents never even found their children’s bodies.
“It’s 30 years now, but we have never been told the truth: How many people died, who they were, and why?” said Zhang Xianling, whose 19-year-old son, Wang Nan, was found dead a few hundred yards from Tiananmen Square on the morning of June 4. He had bullet wounds in his head.


Authorities have been on particularly high alert this year ahead of the 30th anniversary.
Automated censoring software is blocking any mention of the event on China’s parallel Internet. Activists and dissident former government officials who typically live under house arrest have been sent away on enforced vacations during the sensitive period.
“Even if people remember, they have no way of actively expressing that memory,” said Lim, the author.
China’s Xi looks to stoke nationalism as Tiananmen anniversary nears
Though China’s leaders smothered dissent and acts of remembrance, they have presented their economic accomplishments as justification for heavy-handed rule. While China boomed in the 2000s, the West was crippled by the 2008 financial crisis. The difference was proof, party officials said, of their authoritarian efficiency and the shortcomings of the chaotic liberal democratic model.

As China gained its swagger, Xi Jinping, the son of a politically moderate Communist Party elder statesman, was rising to the top of the party apparatus.


“When Xi became leader in 2012 and president in 2013, many people hoped that he would be like his father, a very open leader,” said He, the public intellectual. “People thought Xi would be amenable to reform. But there’s an Arabic saying to describe what happened instead: ‘A man can be more like his era than like his father.’ ”
Under Xi, the sense of Chinese preeminence quickly morphed into outright hostility to Western values. The Communist Party’s central office in 2013 distributed a watershed document warning that seven dangerous Western ideas, including democracy, media freedoms and the free-market system, was forbidden in classrooms.
If Tiananmen was a milestone in the Communist Party’s retreat from a political opening, the 2013 communique was the definitive repudiation, said Gao Yu, the dissident journalist who was jailed in 2015 for obtaining and leaking the document.
“Document No. 9 almost cuts off all Western politics and economics, it completely cuts off China’s connection with world civilization,” Gao, whose seven-year prison sentence has been reduced to house arrest, said by email.
Months after the communique was distributed, Xi personally drove his point home. In what became known as his “August 19” speech in 2013, Xi warned Communist Party cadres that their rule could end if they loosened controls on thought.
But China’s intellectuals increasingly wonder about the cost and sustainability of the ideological firewall.
Every year, more than 360,000 Chinese students attend American universities. That number includes Xi’s daughter, who graduated from Harvard in 2014. Many leading professors and administrators at China’s top universities have studied overseas.
Chinese who spend time abroad “bring back not only the specific skills, but also the whole package, a changed framework of social values,” said a senior professor at Peking University, the Harvard of China. “It’s getting difficult for the Chinese leadership to maintain ideological discipline.”
Anecdotally, some well-educated or rich Chinese say they have had enough. Data also suggest they are voting with their feet. In 2018, twice as many millionaires — about 15,000 — emigrated from China than from any other country, according to the consultancy New World Wealth.
Those who remember 1989, when China seemed a more hopeful country, doubt the repression can hold.
As Liu, former protester and now bookstore owner, puts it: “You can build a dam higher and higher but the water just rises higher, too.”
 

mokoman

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The video isn't right.. It says 'Han Chinese wouldn't justify killing other han Chinese'. Which is wrong!!!! Since when Xitler started to care about people??

And also Taiwan has a major Japanese influence which just don't fit with the typical mainland mentality.

But the way the guy said that US law makers are warmongers. I am convinced it's a soft propaganda video by the CCP.
:dude: Channel name is 'Tales of the American Empire'

All of the videos are anti US.


Chinese long goal is reunification either by peace or violence.

Only a fool will believe otherwise.

Reunification also includes Arunachal Pradesh - especially Tawang , so long term they are planning
a nice surprise party for us too.
 

Sentimental Patriot

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Commie only in name and trappings, what you see here, in Tibet, in Uyghuristan is Han Chinese nationalism at work.
Nationalism has been their crutch and main method of control after Tiananmen Square massacre, which was promoted by CCP to fill the void left in the Chinese pleb's mind by the removal of actual Maoist ideology in state policies.
Earlier Chinks used to be indoctrinated in commie propaganda, now it's about muh "5000 year old ancient civilization Superpower, that will take it's rightful place after a Century of Humiliation at the hands of the corrupt and the foreigner".

Even Democratic Chinese would behave in the same way, without the degree of control the CCP has however.
People get too carried away with the Communism thing, there were a lot of such foolish people in the West during the days of the Soviet Union, who thought in ideological rather than tribal terms, hence these sorts of people who supported the Soviet Union out of some affinity to Communism were in fact just supporting a sort of Russian supremacism.

The same applies to things like Taiwan and democracy, it's good to have good relations with them but in the end it has to be remembered that they are Chinese nationalists with numerous claims on other nations' territories, India included.
 

Dessert Storm

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Because that's available for sale right now. The military arm of Embraer is doing good business , we can go for a g2g deal though to have a joint Indo - Brazil company. Depends how fast and efficient we negotiate.
Purchase may be made for following reasons:
1. India's regional jet market is due to expand substantially around 2025. Embraer makes regional jets.
2. India has been trying to make its own passenger jets (Saras) without much success. This takeover helps a lot with that.
3. Embraer uses American jet engines. So there is a business angle for Americans along with India coming closer to US in passenger jet market too.
4. Embraer's military division is developing military (non-combat) planes with Boeing. They get a foothold in Indian market for that.
5. More of Embraer's military division parts may be outsourced to India.
 

shade

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People get too carried away with the Communism thing, there were a lot of such foolish people in the West during the days of the Soviet Union, who thought in ideological rather than tribal terms, hence these sorts of people who supported the Soviet Union out of some affinity to Communism were in fact just supporting a sort of Russian supremacism.

The same applies to things like Taiwan and democracy, it's good to have good relations with them but in the end it has to be remembered that they are Chinese nationalists with numerous claims on other nations' territories, India included.
Yes, vapid ideologies can only suppress the oogah boogah tribalism inside men only for some time.
Coomies even today unironically think that Russian victory over Germany in WW2 was a "Communist" victory over "Fascism", but it reality it was Orthodox Russians vs Protestant and Catholic Germans.
 

Sentimental Patriot

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Yes, vapid ideologies can only suppress the oogah boogah tribalism inside men only for some time.
Coomies even today unironically think that Russian victory over Germany in WW2 was a "Communist" victory over "Fascism", but it reality it was Orthodox Russians vs Protestant and Catholic Germans.
The only reason the USSR really gets a pass in modern day society is due to how demonised the Nazis are and how little is said of the Soviet atrocities, hence the Soviets beating Nazis = best guys in the world.

In functional terms, there was very little difference between Nazis and Soviets, except the former being more autistic in relation to race issues, even the Soviets engaged in ethnic cleansing via deportations and killings.
 

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