India-China 2020 Border conflict

[bajiraopeshwa]

Recently we saw a video of Chinese soldiers crying on being deployed to India border. Whether that video is real or fake, I think is besides the point. The point is that Chinese soldiers cannot be as motivated as the Indian soldiers to go to icy cold heights and spend lots of time there.

Most Chinese soldiers seem to sign up to ease their college fees. While it may seem a good deal while deployed in the mainland, it may not seem such a good deal when deployed in the icy heights of Ladakh. This will in turn impact future PLA recruitment after the current recruits go back and recount their horror stories.

When an Indian soldier signs up, he is already aware of Siachen etc and the possibility of getting deployed there. He is mentally ready. He never hoped to get deployed only in Tamil Nadu or Kerala, most of the soldiers expect to get deployed to the North as that is where our boundaries are.

Another aspect is that India has a hot LOC with Pakistan and Indian soldiers are used to dealing with that - in terms of attrition, logistics and such. The Chinese are not. The stress of feeling that bullets could come at any time from any where - this is not something the Chinese are used to.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Sticking to agreements went for a toss right after galwan. Diplomatic hypocrisy is the new policy vis a vis China. You can be rest assured the Chinks are being paid back well in their own coin.

You never know with MEA/MoD/GoI. They might seriously be planning to stick to the agreement, just like how they were "surprised" by Chinese having built a whole ass base in F4.

 

[Cactus09]

You never know with MEA/MoD/GoI. They might seriously be planning to stick to the agreement, just like how they were "surprised" by Chinese having built a whole ass base in F4.

Lets be brutally honest here. The Chinese came prepared for the long haul. They had everything in place to build things very quickly. They have been preparing for this for a long time. Some say even right after Dokalam. We had no idea what the hell was going on in the first place. And by the time we mobilized, they already had strengthened their positions. No one was ready for the backstabbing of the Chinese. But the good part is now they are going to lose more through readjustments everywhere. Cos we are prepared now. Fully. Being a pessimist and having a meltdown even when a Chinese soldier farts does not help anyone.

 

[garg_bharat]

Lets be brutally honest here. The Chinese came prepared for the long haul. They had everything in place to build things very quickly. They have been preparing for this for a long time. Some say even right after Dokalam. We had no idea what the hell was going on in the first place. And by the time we mobilized, they already had strengthened their positions. No one was ready for the backstabbing of the Chinese. But the good part is now they are going to lose more through readjustments everywhere. Cos we are prepared now. Fully. Being a pessimist and having a meltdown even when a Chinese soldier farts does not help anyone.

China does not have Modi in its pocket; as compared to Maa Sonia. So Chinese discomfort is clear. China is doing everything to declare itself the world's sole superpower within 5 years. Modi in India is an eyesore.

Be prepared for war. Nothing changed.

 

[tarunraju]

Coupta argues that the Chinese strategy is to "raise the costs of the status quo for India." I don't buy this. All India has to do is widen its income tax net (which is already happening), and it will have the capital to match the "raised" costs. We're only taxing a single-digit % of the population, and there are a billion+ potential taxpayers. We can more than afford this, even if the LAC becomes as militarised as the Korean DMZ. In fact, the Chinese threat would kick our defence procurement apparatus out of complacency, and they'd motivated to build a domestic military industrial complex to make things affordable (vs. procurement of foreign hardware). Chinese wouldn't want that.

So I think China has a different objective. They want to use military force to re-shape the border to their favour. They're not in this for the long haul, they're in this for immediate territorial gains, and right now faced with an Indian resistance, they're stalling. You don't park huge mechanized formations out of their barracks and into forward bases, if you're in for a "long haul."

 

[Sanglamorre]

Lets be brutally honest here. The Chinese came prepared for the long haul. They had everything in place to build things very quickly. They have been preparing for this for a long time. Some say even right after Dokalam. We had no idea what the hell was going on in the first place. And by the time we mobilized, they already had strengthened their positions. No one was ready for the backstabbing of the Chinese. But the good part is now they are going to lose more through readjustments everywhere. Cos we are prepared now. Fully. Being a pessimist and having a meltdown even when a Chinese soldier farts does not help anyone.

That's not being brutally honest. The size of camps set up before the intrusions were announced isn't small. Construction in those terrains isn't easy either. The Chinese came for long haul, but they've been building the bases for months before GoI decided to react.

The Chinese didn't 'backstab'. Their goal of 5-finger is their official policy document, they were building bases for a long time. Question is, when they're pretty evident enemies, why did we trust them in the first place? Enemies don't backstab, they take actions for their benefit.

Readjustments or not, someone was sleeping and dropped the ball. Building bases don't happen in a day and if GoI/ITBP didn't know "what the hell was going on" in our own patrol areas... that's not exactly confidence inspiring.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Such stories are interesting but mostly false.
Puranic stories are fiction.

It is ganga for those that beleive in it for others its just water flowing. Whatever rocks your boat

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

Coupta argues that the Chinese strategy is to "raise the costs of the status quo for India." I don't buy this. All India has to do is widen its income tax net (which is already happening), and it will have the capital to match the "raised" costs. We're only taxing a single-digit % of the population, and there are a billion+ potential taxpayers. We can more than afford this, even if the LAC becomes as militarised as the Korean DMZ.

So I think China has a different objective. They want to use military force to re-shape the border to their favor. They're not in this for the long haul, they're in this for immediate territorial gains, and right now faced with an Indian resistance, they're stalling. You don't park huge mechanized formations out of their barracks and into forward bases, if you're in for a "long haul."

Agree, India can take the economic hit, the growth in software exports more than covers the costs. Software exports are all free money. Yes the Indian government has to give the software engineers rupees but that mostly goes into banks which inflation then eats away anyways.

I also suspect the long haul theory. India should seriously prepare itself for war in the next month and then for the next couple of years. Use the forward deployment of our troops to rapidly build up infra on the borders. Look for ways to cut off G219 from both ends and bottle the Chinese troops.

 

[tarunraju]

Agree, India can take the economic hit, the growth in software exports more than covers the costs. Software exports are all free money. Yes the Indian government has to give the software engineers rupees but that mostly goes into banks which inflation then eats away anyways.

I also suspect the long haul theory. India should seriously prepare itself for war in the next month and then for the next couple of years. Use the forward deployment of our troops to rapidly build up infra on the borders. Look for ways to cut off G219 from both ends and bottle the Chinese troops.

Also, if Chinese were "in for the long haul," they give the Indian government justification to spend billions on upgrading/building border infrastructure unopposed by the Indian domestic political opposition; and more than this, China ends up incentivizing India to build and grow a domestic military industrial complex to keep costs low (vs. foreign hardware procurements). China wouldn't want this.

Therefore I think they're not in this for the long haul, but to cook instant ramen. They've thrown the world into chaos with WuFlu, and now want to take advantage of the chaos to move up in the world order by doing "superpower-ish" things, so that Xi gets to make his pee stain on Beijing indelible.

 

[Cactus09]

That's not being brutally honest. The size of camps set up before the intrusions were announced isn't small. Construction in those terrains isn't easy either. The Chinese came for long haul, but they've been building the bases for months before GoI decided to react.

The Chinese didn't 'backstab'. Their goal of 5-finger is their official policy document, they were building bases for a long time. Question is, when they're pretty evident enemies, why did we trust them in the first place? Enemies don't backstab, they take actions for their benefit.

Readjustments or not, someone was sleeping and dropped the ball. Building bases don't happen in a day and if GoI/ITBP didn't know "what the hell was going on" in our own patrol areas... that's not exactly confidence inspiring.

It is backstabbing when you say one thing and do exactly the opposite. The Chinese before mobilization informed us that it was a regular military exercise. Our so called friend" Russia" convinced us of the same. It is backstabbing when you agree to one thing during a meeting for deescalation and do exactly the opposite. It is backstabbing when your leaders have met several times over the years to "strengthen relationship". Any territorial disputes were agreed to be solved amicably through dialogues and diplomacy in those meetings. This is a backstab of Kargil proportions. Being 100% deployed across all theatres has its own costs. Intelligence failure did happen. And not months but Chinese strengthened in mere weeks. You need to have enough resources ready on your side before you can make moves as well. Its good being critical. But don't be a typical "intellectual bong" who thinks criticizing anything and everything and then engaging in dhoti shivering and having a meltdown is helping. 11 pooh is not going to back out. Not until the October meeting of CPC. And some more. And we are ready. Ladakh will be their stalingrad this winter.

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

Also, if Chinese were "in for the long haul," they give the Indian government justification to spend billions on upgrading/building border infrastructure unopposed by the Indian domestic political opposition; and more than this, China ends up incentivizing India to build and grow a domestic military industrial complex to keep costs low (vs. foreign hardware procurements). China wouldn't want this.

Therefore I think they're not in this for the long haul, but to cook instant ramen. They've thrown the world into chaos with WuFlu, and now want to take advantage of the chaos to move up in the world order by doing "superpower-ish" things, so that Xi gets to make his pee stain on Beijing indelible.

The other possibility is that they came in with an attacking posture, were thwarted by the speedy Indian response and then converted the attacking posture into a defensive posture to save face. As they might have perceived threat increasing in Aksai. After article 370 revocation, terror incidents have gone down by 50% in Kashmir allowing India to redeploy some soldiers to Ladakh.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It is backstabbing when you say one thing and do exactly the opposite. The Chinese before mobilization informed us that it was a regular military exercise. Our so called friend" Russia" convinced us of the same. It is backstabbing when you agree to one thing during a meeting for deescalation and do exactly the opposite. It is backstabbing when your leaders have met several times over the years to "strengthen relationship". Any territorial disputes were agreed to be solved amicably through dialogues and diplomacy in those meetings. This is a backstab of Kargil proportions. Being 100% deployed across all theatres has its own costs. Intelligence failure did happen. And not months but Chinese strengthened in mere weeks. You need to have enough resources ready on your side before you can make moves as well. Its good being critical. But don't be a typical "intellectual bong" who thinks criticizing anything and everything and then engaging in dhoti shivering and having a meltdown is helping. 11 pooh is not going to back out. Not until the October meeting of CPC. And some more. And we are ready. Ladakh will be their stalingrad this winter.

Fool me once its on you, fool me twice its on me. No need to argue.....either we take this border protection business seriously and spend whatever it takes or we continue to lose our one and only Hindustan km by km. World economy has seen enough of growth and unprecendented peace, we should prepare for war for the times ahead, situation around the world will continue to deteriorate and no one can stop the chaos now that is occuring. We can feed ourselves, cloth ourselves, house oueselves....only thing we need some MIC.

 

[Cactus09]

Fool me once its on you, fool me twice its on me. No need to argue.....either we take this border protection business seriously and spend whatever it takes or we continue to lose our one and only Hindustan km by km. World economy has seen enough of growth and unprecendented peace, we should prepare for war for the times ahead, situation around the world will continue to deteriorate and no one can stop the chaos now that is occuring. We can feed ourselves, cloth ourselves, house oueselves....only thing we need some MIC.

Yup. This has given enough spurring to BRO and GoI to get serious about MIC and proper infra.

 

[Sanglamorre]

It is backstabbing when you say one thing and do exactly the opposite. The Chinese before mobilization informed us that it was a regular military exercise. Our so called friend" Russia" convinced us of the same. It is backstabbing when you agree to one thing during a meeting for deescalation and do exactly the opposite. It is backstabbing when your leaders have met several times over the years to "strengthen relationship". Any territorial disputes were agreed to be solved amicably through dialogues and diplomacy in those meetings. This is a backstab of Kargil proportions. Being 100% deployed across all theatres has its own costs. Intelligence failure did happen. And not months but Chinese strengthened in mere weeks. You need to have enough resources ready on your side before you can make moves as well. Its good being critical. But don't be a typical "intellectual bong" who thinks criticizing anything and everything and then engaging in dhoti shivering and having a meltdown is helping. 11 pooh is not going to back out. Not until the October meeting of CPC. And some more. And we are ready. Ladakh will be their stalingrad this winter.

I disagree. It's our enemy, the normal expectation should be they'll perform nefarious stuff. Calling it backstab means we trusted them at some point and that's incomprehensible when it comes to your enemies, particularly when it's the kind like China and Russia, and Pakistan.

And no, it took months to expand camps, build blacktops etc. If we had ejected them the first time they came dragging their cheap materials, we'd not be staring at so much effort it'll take to dislodge them now. The result of waiting for enough resources is that now we're confronting a full scale camp, in multiple.

Oh yeah, and the unbridled optimism is going to help eject Chinese with power of faith in MEA now. A few random people salwar shivering won't do anything. It's MEA and MoD who is shivering for no reason and precipitated the whole thing. Instead of handling Chinese with kid gloves a few bullets from start would have kept them in check much better. They're still shivering and putting out lame duck statements after every meeting.

It's not the Chinese I'm afraid of. They're enemies. They need to be eliminated. It's our own politicians and beureucracy that I'm afraid of sabotaging our national interests.

 

[cyclops]

Video shows Chinese soldiers crying as they allegedly head to Sino-Indian border https://t.co/CXT56O8oCk https://t.co/l0ji2Xd5lh

 

[omaebakabaka]

I disagree. It's our enemy, the normal expectation should be they'll perform nefarious stuff. Calling it backstab means we trusted them at some point and that's incomprehensible when it comes to your enemies, particularly when it's the kind like China and Russia, and Pakistan.

And no, it took months to expand camps, build blacktops etc. If we had ejected them the first time they came dragging their cheap materials, we'd not be staring at so much effort it'll take to dislodge them now. The result of waiting for enough resources is that now we're confronting a full scale camp, in multiple.

Oh yeah, and the unbridled optimism is going to help eject Chinese with power of faith in MEA now. A few random people salwar shivering won't do anything. It's MEA and MoD who is shivering for no reason and precipitated the whole thing. Instead of handling Chinese with kid gloves a few bullets from start would have kept them in check much better. They're still shivering and putting out lame duck statements after every meeting.

It's not the Chinese I'm afraid of. They're enemies. They need to be eliminated. It's our own politicians and beureucracy that I'm afraid of sabotaging our national interests.

I will only say one thing.....most that are ever associated with RSS for any duration of time will not back out by surrendering land in a cowardly manner to please some bureaucratic dicks as they are taught about those specific mistakes in our recent history. Modi is RSS and so are some others in his team and they may show restraint for valid reasons but so far all actions lead to preparing for a fight if push comes to fight. He is a PM and presides over a billion people, not a cowboy.

 

[etantra]

Fool me once its on you, fool me twice its on me. No need to argue.....either we take this border protection business seriously and spend whatever it takes or we continue to lose our one and only Hindustan km by km. World economy has seen enough of growth and unprecendented peace, we should prepare for war for the times ahead, situation around the world will continue to deteriorate and no one can stop the chaos now that is occuring. We can feed ourselves, cloth ourselves, house oueselves....only thing we need some MIC.

We can call out backstabbing as well as blame entities for not being aware of it.
Doesn't need to be mutually exclusive.

What else would you call China who violated agreements or don't acknowledge it? Calling it backstabbing doesn't absolve IA/ITBP/MEA/MHA of blame unless there was a strategy war gamed that allowed for it to happen.

I am surprised by some posters who are brave and pumped in one post but at first sign of doubt, become pessimist and want to blame all those doing their jobs.

Are the pessimists pinning for Pappu and co to run this ship. can we cut down on this dhoti/salwar shivering?

Only a few posters who are dispassionate and hold steady. Too many yo-yo here so much so I suspect some to be larpers.

 

[Bharat Army]

can't be true.
any link?

I have photo copy of official circular. There is no way to upload a pic.

Please suggest..

 

[Poseidon]

I guess you live every second very scientifically by coming onto forums.

Yes.

 

[Cheran]