India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Sehwag213]

Who do you think will be?

The GoI will be the loser - for sure.

So from strategic pov if both side agree to the current status quo as new LAC , so we are the net winner?

 

[Cactus09]

Guys calm down. The previous gains were given away only when MEA babus took things in their own hands completely and shooed away army. Official of MEA will be there to see how consensus reached between two FM’s are fulfilled and to make sure that Chinese don’t raise other issues in the name of moscow meeting. The Chinese have a habit of twisting things and statements to confuse others. Very likely that bs was done after NSA level talks with Doval. So chances are GoI is only plugging that loophole.

 

[Hellfire]

So from strategic pov if both side agree to the current status quo as new LAC , so we are the net winner?

No. There is no winner here.

This will be just both kicking the can down the road. Can of conflict.

 

[DownWithCCP]

No. There is no winner here.

This will be just both kicking the can down the road. Can of conflict.

Do you think the "can of conflict" will ever be opened during the current standoff if yes who will do so? and is there a chance that the "can" will be thrown away in mutually agreed upon terms after the Corps Commander level meet?

 

[SimplyIndian]

meeting is for show as we are deploying one more division in Ladakh.

may be we have captured more heights and need more boots to man them.

de escalation is not happening now. IA/MEA and GOI know that PLA is not as tuff as was projected. So we are preparing. that's my opinion.

 

[Cartel Boss]

Why is Gorkha recruitment a problem to You ? What is the issue. Your Indian elite class is a shameless unpatriotic and very selfish lot. Tell me how many children of elite class join the Armed Forces?

Indian elites had abandoned the business of "Arms and The Man" long time back and that is one of the reasons of thousands years of slavery. Has that mentality and attitude to the profession of arms even today changed. The Moguls/ Muslims and then the British systematically destroyed the dignity and power of military leadership in the country. Our political and bureaucratic class in India has no affinity or proximity or association with the profession of bearing arms. Resultantly, the profession has been cast to the lowest status in our status-conscious hierarchy.

A perfect setting for someone from outside to take over once again under sword... it is not for nothing that Abdalis and Ghoris in Pakistan are confident of doing that yet again.

I refer to India's elite class as decadent class. They do not represent Indian values yet they have been representing India since 1947. This has created a unique problem for India. Why else a country like China whose soldiers were used as bayonet practice by Japan would think that it can take on India?

This decadent class has looked down on Nepalis as darwans. Heck, forget about Nepalis, this decadent class even looks down on people from North East, UP, Bihar and etc. This decadent class while representing India has destroyed all ancient links India had with fellow Dharmic countries like Nepal, Tibet, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and so on.

This is why I am strongly in favor of bringing in selective draft that applies only to India's decadent class. This decadent class needs to be educated and if necessary corrected.

 

[Masada]

Quite interesting to see the effects of a rocket, artillery round in glacier, when it is snowing

You literally hear a thud and a spout of snow flashes upwards and outwards .....

now air bursts are a bit nasty, I agree. But then, ice caves are the way to survive them

Its not the rockets that will cause the damage but the avalanche that will generate after the blast. In ww2 germans and soviets used this to their advantage, so instead of a direct artillery attack they fired above snow peaks to cause snow avalanches

 

[Bhadra]

There are retired Army Generals who I think have a good strategic grasp of what is important e.g. the interview of Nitin Gokhale with Lt Gen Harish Thukral (Retd) and Lt Gen PJS Pannu (Retd) which is linked below conducted as part of his USI series. I was pleasantly surprised by their knowledge of history as to how the situation in Ladakh has evolved as well as their comments on China. People like this should be part of an institutional framework which can develop and guide Indian long term strategic thinking which will provide continuity beyond the elected Government of the day:

Gen Thukral and Gen Pannu might be good at the individual level but their expertise domain is institutionally bureaucratic sine they belong to a bureaucracy called Army. They have limitations imposed on the scope of their ideas by Professionalism which has a role in policy evolution but a limited role. They would not be able to see the problem in its entirety - the economic, trades, commerce, science, technologies, international imperatives, needs of alignments or nonalignment, psychological Warfare, Cyberwars, space wars, race to space, the race for materials, water security and resources management, disaster management, cross-culture impacts, impacts of domestic pressure groups like Communists and Naxalites in policy formulations et etc.. and above all political needs.

Every domain has their expertise. Institutes synthesis those and then evaluate policy alternatives. No wonder institutions like RAND are engaged in education, community development, disaster management, food security and vary many other subjects as all those have deep security ramifications.

Our institutions like USI is a sad story of military aloofness, abject lack of funds, lack of connectivity and communications, All others like CLAWS, CENJAW etc are very narrow in scope and approach. NDU is deliberately blocked by bureaucracy or the generals will also start writing Dr in front of their names and throw away assumed academic status of IAS / Class A Babus.

The one examination pass Babus places them above all institutions of the country and they will never accept any worthwhile outside agency get involved in policy formulation. The principle function of Babu is policy execution but they have taken the policy-making mantle on themselves due to that space being vacated by politicians. so he is the policymaker, policy executioner and policy judge all rolled in one.. absolutely despotic approach to national policies.. which then miserably fails.

The good institution provides an alternative framework... forget about Harish Thukral and Pannu who have not even seen a university... yes they are professionals though, for which academics does not matter.

Individuals who become institution by themselves are people like K Subhramaniam - the only one so far a combination of domain expertise and academic excellence with global framework of reference.

 

[SimplyIndian]

what do you think Indian tri services will be doing if China is firing those rockets?

 

[DownWithCCP]

Farm Bill? or something else?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

 

[Cheran]

Nice thread

 

[Suhaldev]

Farm Bill? or something else?

Farm bill was already cleared by cabinet and got nod of bith the houses, now president just have to sign it.

So, it's something else.

 

[Suhaldev]

New faces in Corps Commander level talks likely to be held tomorrow between Indian and Chinese armies.

JS MEA Navin Srivastava, East Asia to be part of talks

An officer from Army HQ to be part of talks

Another Maj Gen part of formation added in Ladakh

Talks to be held on Chinese side in Moldo tomorrow. This time 2 Maj Gens, GOCs of 2 Divs in Ladakh will be present. Maj Gen Abhijit Bapat, Maj Gen Padam Shekhawat.

IG ITBP, Deepam Seth and 4 Brigadiers to be part of delegation headed by Lt Gen Harinder Singh, 14 Corps Commander

There have been additions but core team remains same to ensure familiarity. New faces are a signal that India means business. Negotiations this time will be different compared to last 5 meetings as scenario has changed over the last 20 days with India occupying crucial heights

 

[DownWithCCP]

Farm bill was already cleared by cabinet and got nod of bith the houses, now president just have to sign it.

So, it's something else.

No it might be to address backlash that was created through deliberate misinformation, or yea it may be something else entirely

 

[Suhaldev]

No it might be to address backlash that was created through deliberate misinformation, or yea it may be something else entirely

Cabinet meetings don't happen in public domain, backlash is already addressed by Modi himslef today.

So, it's more likely that which important bills to be passed as monsoon session is to cut shorted due to covid.

 

[Bhadra]

The sooner India gets over the notion that it is fighting a "border war" with China the better. India is in a war with China, all of China from it's east coast to it's India border. India cannot secure it's land border with China, purely using the IA, unless the IA has the capacity to invade China at the land border and drive 2500 km all the way to Beijing!! How did Japan subjugate China in their war of 1937-1945? By Japanese troops occupying Beijing, Shanghai and the then Chinese capital of Nanjing. That is plainly impossible today for the IA. So India needs the IA to confront the PLA at the border and it also needs the IN to confront China on it's eastern seaboard.

Can we do first what we are capable of ? Can we for for God's sake protect our sovereignty along the Northern borders and achieve some stability by using military means since 74 year's diplomacy with China has utterly failed in spite of surrendering Tibet and Pakistan and Nepal to China.

Or shall we build a Navy of 500 ships over the next fifty years at the cost of others and then loose our land border as also abandon our dream of bombing Beijing if Chinese Navy by then is 5000 ships.

Let us do what is at hand. Loss in Ladakh is a big loss for a nation that has started looking at itself as the only superpower of the world. I am not interested in the destruction of Beijing. I am interested in protecting our sovereignty against an expansionist rising power. That sovereignty does not lie in SCS but in Tibet and Ladakh.

 

[ezsasa]

Americans usually claim that their President is the most powerful man in the world, These days Xi can probably claim that he is the most powerful man in the world. American President has to overcome political opposition and legislative to get things done, Xi is limited only by his imagination at this point in time backed by 14 trillion $ economy.

 

[LDev]

Can we do first what we are capable of ? Can we for for God's sake protect our sovereignty along the Northern borders and achieve some stability thereby military men's since 74 years diplomacy with China has utterly failed.

Or shall we build a Navy of 500 ships over the next fifty years at the cost of others and then loose our land border as also abandon our dream of bombing Beijing if Chinese Navy by then is 5000 ships.

Let us do what is at hand. Loss in Ladakh is a big loss for a nation that has started looking at itself as the only superpower of the world. I am not interested in the destruction of Beijing. I am interested in protecting our sovereignty against an expansionist rising power. That sovereignty does not lie in SCS but in Tibet and Ladakh.

From a purely defensive standpoint the IA is perfectly capable of defensive and tactical offensive operations in Ladakh if it is given a free hand by the political establishment. Which it has been given post Galwan I believe. But any number of tactical victories by either successfully defending present positions or let us say pushing the PLA back to Finger 8 is not going to result in a peaceful border. The LAC will remain heavily militarized for years to come with skirmishes and localized conflicts.

 

[Bhadra]

Ching chongs have a large population of unmarried men though( gender imbalance brought on by one child policy, if you're allowed to only have one, you have a boy ), who cannot acquire a wife because they are too poor i guess

Yes, females have not been having as good a status anywhere in the world as India. gender imbalance in Indian society occurred post-Islamic invasion when people did not like having a daughter to be sold in the markets of Kabul or Damscus..

Though gender imbalance can also be caused when the rich are allowed four wives and the poor forced to bachabazi due to the paucity of women...