India-China 2020 Border conflict

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Kumata

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Wait you seriously believe they came to leh to stop an invasion of pok during covid times?
Yes.. I seriously beleive so. Being a student of history that's what I am inclined to think. Be it 1965 or 71 or Kargil skirmish... One thing is common... Porkis started it.. And we finished it.. Another common thing I'd porkis always begged chunks to open eastern front to help them... They did tried too in 65 but result came in 67... Same way US & porkis egged China in 71 but they had fresh horrors of 67.. So they resorted ti rhetoric but cud not gather courage to send man to border... During kargil also, mussraf was caught in Beijing... Remeber thst phone tap....

So something was up when chinks came to ladhakh... More so when they had a fresh humiliation in doklam... Why wud they risk the same again unlesss something big and expensive was on the line...
 

Kumata

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I think you mean Ladakh, not Leh. They did not come in from nowhere, they have been needling us non stop since the 50's, continued salami slicing over the past few decades, only in 2020 they upped the scale and lead unexpectedly to loss of life and subsequent escalation.
And u think despite facing us in doklam they were foolish to open up in Ladakh.... Their salami tactics were stopped in doklam...
 

Knowitall

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Yes.. I seriously beleive so. Being a student of history that's what I am inclined to think. Be it 1965 or 71 or Kargil skirmish... One thing is common... Porkis started it.. And we finished it.. Another common thing I'd porkis always begged chunks to open eastern front to help them... They did tried too in 65 but result came in 67... Same way US & porkis egged China in 71 but they had fresh horrors of 67.. So they resorted ti rhetoric but cud not gather courage to send man to border... During kargil also, mussraf was caught in Beijing... Remeber thst phone tap....

So something was up when chinks came to ladhakh... More so when they had a fresh humiliation in doklam... Why wud they risk the same again unlesss something big and expensive was on the line...
Some simple contradictions to this are.

Pakistan never mobilized it's corps at any point during the standoff. A military buildup to take over POK would have reached the levels of op parakram and would simply have not gone unnoticed by the international community or pakistan.

India was dealing with covid and it's fallout infact our MEA was surprised by the Chinese using this time to move in.

Our push to buy equipment. It took india over 2 months to mobilize and order various missiles and weapons systems from Israel and Russia. Tons of emergency purchases were made and funds released. If India was truly planning to move into POK we would not have been this unprepared on LAC. There is no way the military just left the LAC without major deployments.

Most importantly the lack of casus belli. In today's world were diplomatic pressure has stopped various escalations India would never ever declare a war on pakistan unprovoked. It is simply unprecedented and something we tend not to do.

Most importantly Indian political establishment won't risk a war without any proper reason in the middle of covid as the war could end up in a two front situation. No one wants to take the blame for a botched up operation.
 

Kumata

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Some simple contradictions to this are.

Pakistan never mobilized it's corps at any point during the standoff. A military buildup to take over POK would have reached the levels of op parakram and would simply have not gone unnoticed by the international community or pakistan.

India was dealing with covid and it's fallout infact our MEA was surprised by the Chinese using this time to move in.

Our push to buy equipment. It took india over 2 months to mobilize and order various missiles and weapons systems from Israel and Russia. Tons of emergency purchases were made and funds released. If India was truly planning to move into POK we would not have been this unprepared on LAC. There is no way the military just left the LAC without major deployments.

Most importantly the lack of casus belli. In today's world were diplomatic pressure has stopped various escalations India would never ever declare a war on pakistan unprovoked. It is simply unprecedented and something we tend not to do.

Most importantly Indian political establishment won't risk a war without any proper reason in the middle of covid as the war could end up in a two front situation. No one wants to take the blame for a botched up operation.
Porkis did not mobilized b, cause they were busy selling pizza, s.

TBH, we had enough weapons / equipment to take over POK & handle porkis so it never went into emergency mode... China Is a diff beast which came out of no where... More so since. Modi and eleven had sling camaraderie in mahabalipuram. May be modi felt confident of no Chinese intrusion and got back stabbed... Or surprised when they came into ladhakh..

Again, my theory is purely based on my own reading off recent events.

It is also possible that monkeys thought to harras out covid situation to gain some ground in Ladakh. Remeber duting rajiv Gandhi, s time.. Chunks were check mated in ladhakh when they tried their mischievous plans in doklam so they might want to get thst bogey off their backs...

Another theory is that china's got wind of POK Plana and opened up Ladakh front to prevent whole situation on day one itself.....
 

Knowitall

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Porkis did not mobilized b, cause they were busy selling pizza, s.

TBH, we had enough weapons / equipment to take over POK & handle porkis so it never went into emergency mode... China Is a diff beast which came out of no where... More so since. Modi and eleven had sling camaraderie in mahabalipuram. May be modi felt confident of no Chinese intrusion and got back stabbed... Or surprised when they came into ladhakh..

Again, my theory is purely based on my own reading off recent events.

It is also possible that monkeys thought to harras out covid situation to gain some ground in Ladakh. Remeber duting rajiv Gandhi, s time.. Chunks were check mated in ladhakh when they tried their mischievous plans in doklam so they might want to get thst bogey off their backs...

Another theory is that china's got wind of POK Plana and opened up Ladakh front to prevent whole situation on day one itself.....
Any plan to retake POK will always factor in a Chinese offensive in NE and leh.

It is not a possibility but a certainty at this point. Indian planners would never make the mistake of keeping Chinese out of the equation when dealing with POK.

Simply put any plan to retake POK would result in a two front war something our military is not ready for as of now.

The above point is one of the reasons why India is moving towards IBG's. The need to strike hard and fast in a timeframe of 24-36 hours before the Pakistanis sufficiently mobilize or chinese move men and material to reinforce them is something that we are trying to prevent. The last thing we want is to end up in a stalemate where attrition and industrial power come into play.

Your second point combined with a need to give the Pakistanis the required space to operate in Afghanistan are the most realistic factor's.
 

The Shrike

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And u think despite facing us in doklam they were foolish to open up in Ladakh.... Their salami tactics were stopped in doklam...
Their Salami tactics stopped in Doklam? After Doklam they took 2 big bites out of Bhutanese territory, started building villages right along the border, pushed forces into old grey zones (Pangong and Depsang) while making fresh new clams previously uncontested territories 🤷‍♀️.
 

another_armchair

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Yes.. I seriously beleive so. Being a student of history that's what I am inclined to think. Be it 1965 or 71 or Kargil skirmish... One thing is common... Porkis started it.. And we finished it.. Another common thing I'd porkis always begged chunks to open eastern front to help them... They did tried too in 65 but result came in 67... Same way US & porkis egged China in 71 but they had fresh horrors of 67.. So they resorted ti rhetoric but cud not gather courage to send man to border... During kargil also, mussraf was caught in Beijing... Remeber thst phone tap....

So something was up when chinks came to ladhakh... More so when they had a fresh humiliation in doklam... Why wud they risk the same again unlesss something big and expensive was on the line...
We had Soviets backing us to the last bullet.


It wasn't just the Sino-Indian border skirmish in 1967, Soviets had moved troops to multiple locations along their border with China after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict and even threatened an invasion if China tried to move against India. Trick helped keep the Chinese from coming to their whore's aid while she got ravaged.
 

Kumata

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We had Soviets backing us to the last bullet.


It wasn't just the Sino-Indian border skirmish in 1967, Soviets had moved troops to multiple locations along their border with China after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict and even threatened an invasion if China tried to move against India. Trick helped keep the Chinese from coming to their whore's aid while she got ravaged.
Right zenbao happened in 69 and coupled with indira gandhi, s Soviet pacts kept Chinese away in 71 but the psychological hit of 1967 played a bigger part too. Problem is events of 67 are not well documented & publicized given the ways of our politicians.
 

Kumata

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Their Salami tactics stopped in Doklam? After Doklam they took 2 big bites out of Bhutanese territory, started building villages right along the border, pushed forces into old grey zones (Pangong and Depsang) while making fresh new clams previously uncontested territories 🤷‍♀️.
For India & Bhutan... Few kms here and there do not make much difference. I remember seeing reports of Chinese build in Bhutan but apparently that's in Chinese territory. Now many know they Bhutan is a protectee of India and any military action on Bhutan will be handled by IA. Something on the lines of US - TAIWAN.
 

Mantospace

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Does this mean we gave our land ?
 
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Taiwan invasion is out of question in near or far future. Taiwan will become a independent nation with world recognition slowly and steadily. Taiwan have repeatedly shown fingers to CCP in recent and europe too have started to recognise taiwan .. eg being lithuania.

The way things are , i am suspecting US will shortly put one china policy on negotiations table and junk it...

Anyways, Eleven knows he cannot fight a war with taiwan given the US protection... Leh was for saving CPEC ...and their slave porkland...Moreover, given eleven's failures on multiple front, he needed a nationalism bogey ... historically we are their fav whipping boys and post 62, they think we live in chinese fear...
A caveat: There is no demand for full scale independence by Taiwanese. There is a strong contingent (by 1 major political party) for merger with PRC. Taiwanese actually think the other way round - that China is one but it will be ruled by democratic parties. Taiwanese invest a lot in PRC even now, despite the adversarial relationship. Indians have not really studied Taiwan’s long term game. It is a complicated game,a new something our intelligence agencies should gather information to understand fully.
 
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A major thing everyone must keep in mind is all Chinese origin people want one Akhand Cheen, comprising of all possible territories where Hans dominate. It is just that they don’t want CCP ruling it.
For Chinese, the goal to have a very big China that is the undisputed superpower of the world is very very important because of historical subjugation reasons. The “mandate of heaven” that China should regain its lost glory runs through every Chinese’s blood, wherever they are - secretly sometimes and overtly most times.
Notice how Han dominate countries never criticize China on genocides in Tibet, East Turkestan, and even for HK, they never advocate independence despite the brutal crackdown. It is important to clearly understand what the Hans want. They want a big China with all the occupied territories and Hanified states like Taiwan, Singapore, SCS islands, everything. It is just that they don’t want the CCP ruling this giant.
Fun fact: Tomorrow if CCP gives way to some sort of a pseudo democratic setup, you can bet that Taiwan, Singapore, HK will all fully integrate. And they will maintain occupation of Tibet, East Turkestan etc. They won’t give a s#$t about Dalai Lama etc. East Asians are very different in how they think and act. Example: there are 6 times the number of Japanese companies in China than in India. There is a huge premium on making money at all costs in East Asia. No business is out of bounds including organized crime, prostitution and betting.
I think we need to understand what exactly are the positions of these Han-ified countries. And in general everyone needs to understand how East Asia actually works to understand why East Asian governments will never fully align with our interests. Case in point: RCEP. Even Japan which put out some statement like “we won’t join until India does” quietly joined their East Asian brotherhood. The affinity among East Asian peoples is very strong. Indians are not considered part of that grouping. Example: Indonesians and Malaysians are racist toward Indians despite their interests aligning more with us.
So, it is important to separate what East Asian people want from how their Governments behave. The two are very different.
 

Blank

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A major thing everyone must keep in mind is all Chinese origin people want one Akhand Cheen, comprising of all possible territories where Hans dominate. It is just that they don’t want CCP ruling it.
For Chinese, the goal to have a very big China that is the undisputed superpower of the world is very very important because of historical subjugation reasons. The “mandate of heaven” that China should regain its lost glory runs through every Chinese’s blood, wherever they are - secretly sometimes and overtly most times.
Notice how Han dominate countries never criticize China on genocides in Tibet, East Turkestan, and even for HK, they never advocate independence despite the brutal crackdown. It is important to clearly understand what the Hans want. They want a big China with all the occupied territories and Hanified states like Taiwan, Singapore, SCS islands, everything. It is just that they don’t want the CCP ruling this giant.
Fun fact: Tomorrow if CCP gives way to some sort of a pseudo democratic setup, you can bet that Taiwan, Singapore, HK will all fully integrate. And they will maintain occupation of Tibet, East Turkestan etc. They won’t give a s#$t about Dalai Lama etc. East Asians are very different in how they think and act. Example: there are 6 times the number of Japanese companies in China than in India. There is a huge premium on making money at all costs in East Asia. No business is out of bounds including organized crime, prostitution and betting.
I think we need to understand what exactly are the positions of these Han-ified countries. And in general everyone needs to understand how East Asia actually works to understand why East Asian governments will never fully align with our interests. Case in point: RCEP. Even Japan which put out some statement like “we won’t join until India does” quietly joined their East Asian brotherhood. The affinity among East Asian peoples is very strong. Indians are not considered part of that grouping. Example: Indonesians and Malaysians are racist toward Indians despite their interests aligning more with us.
So, it is important to separate what East Asian people want from how their Governments behave. The two are very different.
I mean even our own neighbours (Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) don't like us. Though they are more in the realm of Jealousy. I mean, who told them to not join us?
 
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