India Approves Purchase of Some 200 Russian Kamov Helicopters – Reports

[The enlightened]

Domestic alternative is not ready and we are out of components to make fresh Cheetahs.

Domestic alternative (Both ALH and Cheetal) are in production. ALH is even better than the Cheetahs.
3 Cheetal were produced just last year. How did that miracle happen. Keep in mind that its mama and papa are still in operation with the Frenchies.

 

[SajeevJino]

Some common Ceiling Factors.

Service ceiling

The maximum altitude the Helicopter can reach, but it will fly the desired altitude, Just like Flying altitude. also Heli doesn't perform any operations while flying at maximum service ceiling.

Hover ceiling,

Here only the Helicopter do ops, Landing Take off, patrol, fly slow fly past maneuver and more

The Hover Ceiling also categorized into two..!! In Ground Effect (IGE) Out Ground Effect (OGE)

OGE

This means that the fully loaded helicopter can hover at 4000ft above the ocean (ie. no hard surfaces close below),

IGE

here Heli can hover at 6000ft above a tall mountain top where there is the ground close below ( less than fifty Feet ) the ground height can depend on the Heli size and Rotar length

 

[anupamsurey]

If the need for Cheetah replacement was so urgent, then why didn't they just make more of them. We just sold 3 to the Afghans. By doing this aren't trudging on HAL LUH's space. I don't think any country in the world would splurge on foreign acquisitions when a domestic alternative is available & in production.

cheetah is old platform with aging technology. it was envisioned some 30 years back. most of it is absolutely outdated, now we have far better and more useful platforms like Dhruv.

 

[sob]

Dhruv is not the ideal replacement. There are issues that are being solved in the ULH as mentioned by @Kunal Biswas

 

[The enlightened]

cheetah is old platform with aging technology. it was envisioned some 30 years back. most of it is absolutely outdated, now we have far better and more useful platforms like Dhruv.

Am talking about Cheetal - upgraded Cheetahs which we just gifted to the ANF. My point is that new Cheetahs (cheetals) are better than old Cheetahs which are apparently killing our pilots. Since LUH tenders had been delayed to a point that domestic LUH was already in sight, why buy a completely foreign type once again instead of an all 'MADE' in India fleet.
Also I didn't say Dhruv was bad, infact I vouched for it. I believe it was inducted in the Siachen Supply Chain, after clearing all tests (and proving superior too), but isn't utilized much since it being a bigger helo naturally requires more fuel and spares support which cannot be air-lifted placing unnecessary burden on the logistics line.

BTW Cheetah is 45 years old.

 

[Zebra]

Dhruv is not the ideal replacement. There are issues that are being solved in the ULH as mentioned by @Kunal Biswas

At high altitude they can use Dhruv and rest they can use LUH.

Only thing is they have to make them faster as mass production.

 

[anupamsurey]

this entire procurement for 200 helos from russia, that too an outdated and maintenance horror story. does raise some questions. even the repoerts from news sources donot elaborate anything.

overall, i feel that this is an unwanted expenditure. Modi should understand that just because he wants the world to make in India, he cannot allow unwanted projects to eat up our resources.
instead, he should have emphasized on was the medium transport aircraft , and a new class of helo. or something else. bringing a old helicopter In India doesn't serve our purpose (we learn nothing new from it-aferall our aim should be to absorb modern tech and Internalize it).

or are we trying to make an old pal happy?

 

[sob]

Can you give some links on what you say an outdated and maintenance horror story-- @anupamsurey

 

[anupamsurey]

don't have links (as i donot search for any defense related news outside this forum),and Russians never allow themselves to criticize or introspect in public. but what i said is true with almost every Russian platform in defense. more so with Kamov helos. except for the KA 31 and 32 which is perhaps the most evolved version among Ka series of helo.

but i do know that it is not user friendly and very taxing on pilot (info comes form a friend who is a pilot).

Can you give some links on what you say an outdated and maintenance horror story-- @anupamsurey

,

 

[The enlightened]

don't have links (as i donot search for any defense related news outside this forum),and Russians never allow themselves to criticize or introspect in public. but what i said is true with almost every Russian platform in defense. more so with Kamov helos. except for the KA 31 and 32 which is perhaps the most evolved version among Ka series of helo.

but i do know that it is not user friendly and very taxing on pilot (info comes form a friend who is a pilot).


,

Tell us more about your pilot friend.

 

[Zebra]

this entire procurement for 200 helos from russia, that too an outdated and maintenance horror story. does raise some questions. even the repoerts from news sources donot elaborate anything.

overall, i feel that this is an unwanted expenditure. Modi should understand that just because he wants the world to make in India, he cannot allow unwanted projects to eat up our resources.
instead, he should have emphasized on was the medium transport aircraft , and a new class of helo. or something else. bringing a old helicopter In India doesn't serve our purpose (we learn nothing new from it-aferall our aim should be to absorb modern tech and Internalize it).

or are we trying to make an old pal happy?

Sir, it is not Ka-26, it is Ka-226 T.

They introduced it in 2002. And it is not cheap.

 

[anupamsurey]

Sir, it is not Ka-26, it is Ka-226 T.

They introduced it in 2002. And it is not cheap.

tanks for clarifying, they made some modifications on Ka 26 and added an extra 2 in prefix. but is still stick on to my points about maintenance horror they are.

 

[blueblood]

siachen wich chelega?? will it work in siachen???

Indira Col: Altitude 5,764 metres.
Kamov-226T Service Ceiling: 7000 metres.

OGE

This means that the fully loaded helicopter can hover at 4000ft above the ocean (ie. no hard surfaces close below),

Operational ceiling
6,100 m

Hover ceiling (OGE)
4,600 m


http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/civil/ka-226t/features.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The IAF had placed an order for 10 Cheetals, of which the first batch of four has been delivered. Saturday, July 25, 2009

Cheetal is the re-engined version of the Cheetah helicopter. The project initiated during 2002 and aimed to enhance high altitude operational capabilities and maintainability as well as to provide a mid-life upgrade for safe & reliable operations.

Artouste-IIIB engine of Cheetah was replaced with the modern fuel efficient TM333–2M2 engine with FADEC for better performance. In addition, an automatic Backup Engine Control system (EBCB) is equipped with engine.

HAL has delivered 1st production batch of 10 Cheetal helicopters and in operation by Indian Air Force at LEH region. Helicopter is in production for other operators.

======================

ALH can touches 20,000 feet with 600kg supply and Cheetal at 23,000 feet but with 200kgs supply, Cheetals are upgraded cheetahs and used primary for Recon an search and recuse ..

If the need for Cheetah replacement was so urgent, then why didn't they just make more of them. We just sold 3 to the Afghans. By doing this aren't trudging on HAL LUH's space. I don't think any country in the world would splurge on foreign acquisitions when a domestic alternative is available & in production.

Domestic alternative is not ready and we are out of components to make fresh Cheetahs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have to agree with you in many ways, I still cannot understand the role of ULH at Leh ?

The same can be done by Dhruv and with commonality of spares ..

cheetah is old platform with aging technology. it was envisioned some 30 years back. most of it is absolutely outdated, now we have far better and more useful platforms like Dhruv.

 

[The enlightened]

HAL has delivered 1st production batch of 10 Cheetal helicopters and in operation by Indian Air Force at LEH region. Helicopter is in production for other operators.

======================

ALH can touches 20,000 feet with 600kg supply and Cheetal at 23,000 feet but with 200kgs supply, Cheetals are upgraded cheetahs and used primary for Recon an search and recuse ..

You under-estimate the ALH

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/great-helicopter-challenge-part-1-of-3.html

As the shuddering helicopter bears down on the tiny helipad atop a needle of ice at 20,997 feet(= 6400 meters), the rotor blades struggle to extract lift from the rarefied air. This is the ultimate test for helicopters. But the army’s new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has proved that it can land at Sonam, bringing in much larger payloads than the Cheetah helicopters that have laboriously sustained the jawans in Sonam for the last two decades.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm

ALH Dhruv clears high-altitude tests, will join Siachen fleetnews
20 February 2007


Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-ALH-pilots-fly-high/articleshow/2437840.cms?

Bangalore ALH pilots fly high
Prashanth G N, TNN 8 October 2007, 01:31am IST


Three of its pilots were the first to take the ALH to heights higher than Manasbal, which was also the first time an Indian helicopter was taken to that height.

C D Upadhyay, Unni Pillai and M U Khan flew the ALH at an incredible altitude of 27,500 feet (= 8382 meters !) in the Siachen area braving icy winds.

Upadhyay describes that flight: "We started climbing stage by stage... 20,000 feet, 23, 24, 25, 26 and then 27,500. It had never been done before. We were hovering and watching a Cheetal (another helicopter) land just below us at 25,100 feet. Landing at that height isn’t easy. We were ready to pick up the pilot if something went wrong.

"Naturally, we had to be at a higher altitude. It was cold and we were wrapped in woollens. There wasn't a single rattle at 27,500 ft... We'd worked out if the Cheetal {cheetal is a cheetah with the more powerful TM3332B2, same engine as used in the initial version of the Dhruv}could make 25,000 feet, the ALH could do more. We hadn't tried it on the Siachen Glacier. We succeeded."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots tried out the copter at that height above the Leh runway and the hills before taking on the glacier.

Minutes before the flight, Upadhyay said: "We checked the engine, then the software. It was fine. We were confident the copter would perform 100 per cent. Then we checked on the oxygen. At 27,000 feet, you need pressurised oxygen and a continuous supply. We ensured that. We did all the checks. We just took-off. The ALH was a beauty."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots were the first to put the ALH through the glacier. They flew it in extreme cold conditions. They flew it after an overnight soak. Then in chilly winds, almost blizzard-like conditions.

Upadhyay and co. did not have risk on their mind. "We didn't have the time to think. So there was no worrying. In any case, flying is part of our life. We have done it before and we'll keep doing it in future. If you love what you do, you don't think of what turns out for you. You learn to expect that in a pilot's life."

Courtesy : some dude at BRF

Also why only 10 new Cheetal. Whats to stop them from inducting more as a stop-gap?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Even if they got inducted their is little or no news about such development ..

 

[The enlightened]

Well, we have this news

http://www.iamin.in/en/nashik/news/...egarding-scrapping-cheetak-chetak-fleet-54848

 

[anupamsurey]

I have to agree with you in many ways, I still cannot understand the role of ULH at Leh ?

The same can be done by Dhruv and with commonality of spares ..

looks like HAL and IAF are Jaani Dushmans,

either they have serious contentions among them or the PR of HAL sucks in managing IAF.

my question is do france gets royalties in these LUH (my opinion is they do get some), if that's so then we cant rule out corruption at high places.

 

[blueblood]

Let's clear up few things.

1) Not every product to be inducted has to be "Siachen qualified". Indian Army has stated it earlier that they need these for high alttitude ops, therefore one can safely assume that MOD was listening. "Sonam post" should not be the benchmark. It is the highest point not the average point.

2) While both Cheetah and Chetak served with excellence, they are massively outdated and a chore to fly, a very risky one. An NDTV documentary explained the huge technological difference from the pilot's POV when compared to Dhruv and like Dhruv, Ka-226 is an advanced twin engine machine with Fadec.

3) Producing new Cheetah and Chetak today is like ordering new T-55 tanks or Mig-21s. Just let them go.

4) Different figures ranging from $450-500 million are being mentioned. So it's a good deal for having a production line along with 200 choppers.

5) Also proposed was the production line for Mi-17 which could be accepted if this deal works out properly. Who knows maybe they will offer the production of Mi-38.