IAF Mirage 2000

[nongaddarliberal]

I know I'll get hounded for this post, but hear me out. If we want a decent number of new jets, for an affordable price, then f 21 seems like the only logical option. All other fighters are nearly as expensive as Rafale, or Russian junk. Gripen is too close to Tejas mk2. I know the f 21 is simply an upgraded f 16, but it's heavily upgraded, with an AESA radar, new 140 KN engine, sensor fusion, HMD etc. It has almost nothing in common with paki f 16s. It is only because of pride that we refuse this option. IAF wants 110 western jets with advanced avionics, and ease of maintenance, for a price it can afford. Only f21 fits that bill. If we pick something like Rafale or f18 super hornet, MMRCA 2.0 will end up exactly like MMRCA 1.0, with a drastically reduced order.

 

[Bhurki]

I know I'll get hounded for this post, but hear me out. If we want a decent number of new jets, for an affordable price, then f 21 seems like the only logical option. All other fighters are nearly as expensive as Rafale, or Russian junk. Gripen is too close to Tejas mk2. I know the f 21 is simply an upgraded f 16, but it's heavily upgraded, with an AESA radar, new 140 KN engine, sensor fusion, HMD etc. It has almost nothing in common with paki f 16s. It is only because of pride that we refuse this option. IAF wants 110 western jets with advanced avionics, and ease of maintenance, for a price it can afford. Only f21 fits that bill. If we pick something like Rafale or f18 super hornet, MMRCA 2.0 will end up exactly like MMRCA 1.0, with a drastically reduced order.

But what if the US uses kill switch when IAF is operating these jets in missions they don't agree with..
Besides, i thought IAF chief had made it clear that no more foreign purchases will be done unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Unless follow on 65k ton carrier is allowed by Indian MoD, that order seems unlikely.

Then what they will be using on upcoming INS Vikrant?

Mig 29k again?

The second one will come the only question is if the timeline will be delayed by 2030s for N AMCA

F-18 may become a reality if India decides to use f404/f414 family engines on upcoming projects like tejas Mk2, amca rather than follow the tedious task of producing Kaveri from the ground up.
...

Ohh Dear..

F404 is already in and F 414 is in for Mk2 prototype and will be there .

AMCA is bankrolling on F414 series too.

F-18 will only get us a better deal and same engine lowering maintenance headache and cost .

We will be going for an indigenous engine to eventually replace them.

 

[Flying Dagger]

But what if the US uses kill switch when IAF is operating these jets in missions they don't agree with..
Besides, i thought IAF chief had made it clear that no more foreign purchases will be done unless absolutely necessary.

Well i think you meant Kill switch as in general and not literally a switch which they'll use to take aircrafts down like a mosquito.

Anyway IAF chief also said abt MMRCA 2 the next priority.

He only meant that AMCA will be the only fifth gen fighter IAF will induct.

We are very much aware another 18-36 Rafale are getting in no matter what.

 

[Bhurki]

Then what they will be using on upcoming INS Vikrant?

Mig 29k again?

IN does have more than the air complement required for both Vikramadtiya and Vikrant combined. Also, you wouldn't expect their uptimes to coincide but rather complement each other.

 

[BON PLAN]

$200mil x 250 = $50B...
India will buy only if France agrees to pay for all of them..

Not the same if thery are 90% produced in India...
And the more you purchase, the less is the unit price, because the fixed cost are divided by a huge number.

The price of the sole equipped frame is in the 95-100 euros millions.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

But what if the US uses kill switch when IAF is operating these jets in missions they don't agree with..
Besides, i thought IAF chief had made it clear that no more foreign purchases will be done unless absolutely necessary.

No, IAF chief mentioned 110 new fighters. He said no foreign purchase after that. About the kill switch, either we have 110 F 21's with a kill switch, or we get 40 Rafales without a kill switch. Honestly, when they didn't activate the kill switch on paki F 16s attacking India, then I don't think they'll activate it on us.

 

[Flying Dagger]

IN does have more than the air complement required for both Vikramadtiya and Vikrant combined. Also, you wouldn't expect their uptimes to coincide but rather complement each other.

Not really half of them are always under maintenance and with capacity of 26 aircraft both will require to buy an additional 15- 20 around aircraft. Else they may deploy some Tejas for a mix up which i believe they may do and was intention behind buying 45 of those mig 29 ( apart from tackling the low availability issue)

I don't mind either option as it will release some money for more Rafale for IAF which is very much needed.

 

[BON PLAN]

Here is an interesting thought . What if Russia offer su57 in mrca 2.0 instead of mig35

because Su57 is for HMRCA , not MMRCA ( H for Heavy...)

 

[Bhurki]

Well i think you meant Kill switch as in general and not literally a switch which they'll use to take aircrafts down like a mosquito.

Anyway IAF chief also said abt MMRCA 2 the next priority.

He only meant that AMCA will be the only fifth gen fighter IAF will induct.

We are very much aware another 18-36 Rafale are getting in no matter what.

Na, i was meaning something like the mosquito.. (Heavy pun intended)..

Didn't pay attention to mrfa... Was following this...

 

[BON PLAN]

It's a satire dude take it like that .



250

Unless Rafale win IN contract for 57 + possible follow on there is no chance the order will go beyond 18 - 36 .

With delays in Snecma and GTRE coming up together for Kaveri road seems tough.

F - 18 is already looking out for IN order

And Russian Su 57 development can anytime reverse the fate of Rafale.

A follow on order for IAF of 36 is likely if MMRCA2 is lost.
After that.... all is opened.

My position : Rafale win MMRCA2, SH18 win the 57 for IN.

 

[BON PLAN]

I know I'll get hounded for this post, but hear me out. If we want a decent number of new jets, for an affordable price, then f 21 seems like the only logical option. All other fighters are nearly as expensive as Rafale, or Russian junk. Gripen is too close to Tejas mk2. I know the f 21 is simply an upgraded f 16, but it's heavily upgraded, with an AESA radar, new 140 KN engine, sensor fusion, HMD etc. It has almost nothing in common with paki f 16s. It is only because of pride that we refuse this option. IAF wants 110 western jets with advanced avionics, and ease of maintenance, for a price it can afford. Only f21 fits that bill. If we pick something like Rafale or f18 super hornet, MMRCA 2.0 will end up exactly like MMRCA 1.0, with a drastically reduced order.

The F21 is highly upgraded.
But the time the F16 was built hundreds each year is over => F21 will not be as cheap as you imagine, specially with all these goodies. So the price of Rafale will not be so high, but for a plane with greater capacity and a stronger road map for the future. F21 is probably like B737 MAX : too much upgraded.

 

[Bhurki]

Honestly, when they didn't activate the kill switch on paki F 16s attacking India, then I don't think they'll activate it on us.

I was joking...

Not really half of them are always under maintenance and with capacity of 26 aircraft both will require to buy an additional 15- 20 around aircraft.

I've actually never seen a skewed deck a/c carry full complement of aircraft.

Else they may deploy some Tejas for a mix up which i believe they may do

I hope you are joking... Tejas doesn't have enough power to takeoff with a meaningful load without assist from catapult. IN has said this quite a few times..Add the single engine dilemma .

A follow on order for IAF of 36 is likely if MMRCA2 is lost.
After that.... all is opened.

My position : Rafale win MMRCA2, SH18 win the 57 for IN.

This will be throw the indigenous efforts on to the backburner by cutting significant portion of their financing ..

 

[nongaddarliberal]

A follow on order for IAF of 36 is likely if MMRCA2 is lost.
After that.... all is opened.

My position : Rafale win MMRCA2, SH18 win the 57 for IN.

Yes, after 10 years of negotiating MMRCA 2 and abandoning it, in the year 2030 the IAF will place orders for 36 more Rafales.

 

[Bhurki]

The F21 is highly upgraded.
But the time the F16 was built hundreds each year is over => F21 will not be as cheap as you imagine, specially with all these goodies. So the price of Rafale will not be so high, but for a plane with greater capacity and a stronger road map for the future. F21 is probably like B737 MAX : too much upgraded.

F21 is just a renamed F16V recently sold to Taiwan.. 66 for $8B.. So cost will certainly be lower than rafale on account of being single engine, maintenance should be cheaper too..

 

[nongaddarliberal]

F21 is just a renamed F16V recently sold to Taiwan.. 66 for $8B.. So cost will certainly be lower than rafale on account of being single engine, maintenance should be cheaper too..

By the same price 110 fighters can be purchased for 13 billion dollars. Again, it's the only quality western fighter we can purchase in decent numbers.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Na, i was meaning something like the mosquito.. (Heavy pun intended)..
View attachment 39692
Didn't pay attention to mrfa... Was following this...

F 16 ain't coming so let him dream. Only F 18 has realistic chance.

Other than that nice table .

Though many things have changed now. Vicky may be operated till 2035- 2040 around so Mig 29k will serve longer now.

Jaguar engine upgrade is cancelled so theyll be retiring in between 2025-30

Mirage 2000 upgrade by HAL is delayed so they will be used till 2035 around atleast.

We may be buying additional Mig 29 so they'll also stretch to 2035 now.


Mig 21 will be kept in semi operational state till 2025 .

While tejas mk 2 timeline is moved beyond 2027-28 .

 

[Bhurki]

While tejas mk 2 timeline is moved beyond 2027-28 .

Official timeline is 2024 for first flight..

Mig 21 will be kept in semi operational state till 2025 .

They are semi operational while being operational.. Not sure how operational will they be when they actually put into reserve...

 

[Flying Dagger]

By the same price 110 fighters can be purchased for 13 billion dollars. Again, it's the only quality western fighter we can purchase in decent numbers.

Nope Bro they already have infra for F 16 that's why over all cost seems low. It will be over 20 billion for us. But we aren't buying it very unlikely right now. F 18 for IN on the other hand makes sense due to same engine used with Tejas and AMCA project. I think lots of politics will be involved now along with Snecma GTRE Engine project.

Official timeline is 2024 for first flight..

Yup but the table shows squadron strength. Even if production begin by 2027-28 schedule which looks a bit sketchy first squadron will be raised by 2028-29 only.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I've actually never seen a skewed deck a/c carry full complement of aircraft.

I hope you are joking... Tejas doesn't have enough power to takeoff with a meaningful load without assist from catapult. IN has said this quite a few times..Add the single engine dilemma .

There is no dilemma in single engine specially when it is proven F 414 series which will be used for naval version of tejas mk2 to solve the lower thrust issue.

F - 35 is a single engine machine.. dude No dilemma there

Though i understand your concern a dual engine always make sense but Navy never made it an issue since they joined Tejas project . Their priority is always clear and crisp. Tejas if met the operational requirements will be stop gap till AMCA kicks in .

In anycase the Ifs will go into many Ifs with non stop dream land possibility as of now it seems that Navy is interested in some new machine for Vikrant and Vishal later.

They'll clear it out in next 2-4 years.