IAF Mirage 2000

[Neptune]

Their Amraams did the job, they didnot need the PL 15. They were not targetting our Awacs. They likely carried the PL12, which also outranges the Mica and R77.

Right now Sukhoi can see the pakis first but cant engage, pakis will see us later but can engage first due to their better Bvr missile range.

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That is a ridiculous assumption. The Pakistanis has the intention of shooting down Indian aircraft on the 27th otherwise they would have not carried out the operation. The Pakistanis had more then enough aircraft to protect their awacs and those aircraft were at a far enough distance.

The Pakistanis would have loved to down any Indian aircraft, be it Mirage or SU-30. The JF-17 and it’s missiles were a none factor, there is a reason the Chinese still buy Russian aircraft such as the SU-35. They simply are behind in many areas and it doesn’t help the JF-17 is a budget aircraft. It was exposed on the 27th.

 

[abhay rajput]

It looks like I am the only one willing to stand up for IAF officers who made a call in the heat of battle. Porkis were in the middle of striking an HQ so they had every reason to believe it to be a missile. In the heat of battle you don't have time to follow a dozen different safety protocols. The entire process should already be predetermined by a universal data link that wouldn't even allow you to fire on a friendly aircraft. This is the High Command just throwing officers under the bus to cover up their jumbled collection of networks that don't talk to each other and a long list of protocols you don't have time to follow in the middle of combat.

I ..

R77-1 has been test fired. There is no news regarding any orders.

Neither is there any order of the I Derby.

K77 isnt exactly the AWACS killer, a AWACS killer would be the KS 172.

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You are wrong on many things...
1- su30 were at lower attitude around 15k and f16s which fired the aim120 missiles were at 40k .. they fired there aim120 missiles at 50 km distance even then they couldn't hit a single su30.. now just remember that only 1 su30 was fired upon .. the aim120 missiles missed Abhinandan wingman mig21 .. that is the same missile which IAF showcased the other day.. Rafale still carry mica missiles as it's primary BVR until meteor arrives in numbers ... Terrain of Jammu and Kashmir is such that the Pakistani didn't even detect mig21 flying at low attitude untill the last moment and they were warned by Saab AWACS ..
2- m2k are formidable fighter jets .. Thales manufacture it's radar, the only manufacturer in Europe who made aesa radars.. typhoon still doesn't have one.. those h4 bomb missed because jf17 could not provide cover to PAF mirages from m2k... Don't take any Chinese claims seriously , because if there claims were true then will be buying jf17 rather than Sukhoi ... Just imagine if mig21 can get that close and they also don't fly close to ground like m2k.. m2k still is a very formidable aircraft ...
3- h4 bombs have a range of 120km there primary target was IAF bases thats one of the reason that air defence battery shoot down our own chooper because the officers there panicked even though they knew very well that it might be there own chooper.. a missile looks very different than helicopter on radar...
4- after h4 failed , they fired aim120 at our su30 and then 3 f16 came close to loc and fired lgb bombs at army headquarters which also failed that day..
5- BVR at more than 50km is useless my friend

 

[Flying Dagger]

R77-1 has been test fired. There is no news regarding any orders.

Neither is there any order of the I Derby.

K77 isnt exactly the AWACS killer, a AWACS killer would be the KS 172.

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The recent order of missiles included R -77-1 110 km

And R - 27 ER 130 km ( it might be the EM 170 km)

K 77 is on negotiation will get that soon now after 27 Feb.

I didnt said K 77 to be a Awacs killer but even then a 190+ km range means a bigger nez .

I Derby ER i felt like more of a political move plus to bargain it is stop gap for Tejas till mk2 kicks in

Awacs killer is an Awacs killer i.e K 100 @Bhurki bro unlike R 37 which purely relies on its speed K 100 will be able to pull more gs. That was one of the objective of a new platform which India funded.

 

[Bhurki]

Awacs killer is an Awacs killer i.e K 100 @Bhurki bro unlike R 37 which purely relies on its speed K 100 will be able to pull more gs

There really is no need for these missiles to 'pull g's'. This is shown is their design, with both KS172, R37 having 4 times the X section compared to shooters like R77(400mm vs 200mm) and having small control surfaces.
KS172 weighs close to 1600 lbs and has tiny fins, no directional power control. It was a knockoff of Buk with slow response.
R37 is a newer dedicated long range engager with same design philosophy but optimized for air launch, hence smaller in size.

I didnt said K 77 to be a Awacs killer but even then a 190+ km range means a bigger nez

I think we should take that 190 km range with a pinch of salt.
K77m/me was more of a guidance upgrade than a propulsion upgrade( both happened but with significantly more importance to former than latter). Its aim was to match the newer amraam c8. The newer variants use DP motors instead of ramjet in the older 77-1 variant, however, the dimensions still remain the same ( from the already expanded 77-1 body for the 'me' variant?!). Unless they found some ' secret sauce' to put into the propellant to make it produce loads more energy than it did before for the same amount, i'll assume its range to be inline with the amraam's 160 km.

 

[Flying Dagger]

There really is no need for these missiles to 'pull g's'. This is shown is their design, with both KS172, R37 having 4 times the X section compared to shooters like R77(400mm vs 200mm) and having small control surfaces.
KS172 weighs close to 1600 lbs and has tiny fins, no directional power control. It was a knockoff of Buk with slow response.
R37 is a newer dedicated long range engager with same design philosophy but optimized for air launch, hence smaller in size.

I think we should take that 190 km range with a pinch of salt.
K77m/me was more of a guidance upgrade than a propulsion upgrade( both happened but with significantly more importance to former than latter). Its aim was to match the newer amraam c8. The newer variants use DP motors instead of ramjet in the older 77-1 variant, however, the dimensions still remain the same ( from the already expanded 77-1 body for the 'me' variant?!). Unless they found some ' secret sauce' to put into the propellant to make it produce loads more energy than it did before for the same amount, i'll assume its range to be inline with the amraam's 160 km.

Lbs really ? Talk in kgs dude Using American sources ??

Well R 37 was worked upon and made more manueverable than its earlier variant R 33 .

With K 100 the compromise with speed is for the same reason . If you think any other help me out what it could be since range are similar ?

Also i think they were supposed to take down cruise missiles too.

Nope both range and guidance were equally important since initially it was 80 km - 110 km and they started improving on it.

The range of AIM 120 D is classified and may be in between 160 - 180 as per many articles.

K77 wasn't there to match Aim 120 D but outclass it in range.

K 77 m Dual pulse motor with Aesa

K 77 me ( Ramjet )

Now regarding the range being 190 km or not . I don't think we need to play salt or pepper. Russia is very ahead in this since the days of USSR and improved propulsion system better fuel burning will easily provide them the range desired.

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage 2000 has nothing to match AMRAAM 120c5 c7.

So its not a match for the F16.

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AMRAAM C5 or C7 has a 20km NEZ range. Nothing impressive.
MICA NEZ range is the same.

If Mirage 2000 + MICA combo was not effective, why some users of M2000 and F16 would have purchase or upraded the Mirage fleet ? (UAE, Greece, Taiwan).

 

[BON PLAN]

True, the Mica has much less range then the AMRAAM 120c5 but it’s a very advanced missile with high hit probability; admittedly though the Mirages radar also has far less range, less then half the range of the F-16s APG if my memory is correct. But radar range doesn’t matter as much as missile range. Realistically the AMRAAM 120C5 would be lucky to get a kill at anywhere close to 100km, in MICA’s case it would be lucky to get a kill at 70kms.

AWACS would be the deciding factor and this is where Indian AWACS pulls ahead of Pakistan in both quality and quantity. The Falcons+Netra is better and more numerous then anything Pakistan has. The upgraded Mirages India has appear to have an excellent defense suite as well as DASH weapon helmet/sensor system. With numerical superiority, AWACS and good tactics the upgraded Mirages can certainly shoot down Pakistani F-16s. The Pakistanis showed they had terrible situational awareness even with AWACS airborne on the 27th. If India ever gets the Meteor for the their Mirages, then the Indian Mirages would have the edge over Pakistan F-16s.

What is the farthest target destroyed by an AMRAAM ?
a taiwanese M2000 shooted a drone at 67 km. It was 20 years ago nearly.... What about AMRAAM ?

 

[BON PLAN]

I wonder if Amraams can be mated with the Mirages.

Problem is that Right now the Mirage is outranged by F16. A f16 can fire a 120C5 at dmax, force the mirage to take defensive action,while the mirage wont have a firing solution. This same thing happened to the MKIs.

We seriously need our front line fighters to be not outranged by PAF.

PAF has 4 Erieye, 2 on order. They also have 4 ZDK 03.

India has 3 Phalcons and 2 Netra(may be 3).

So pakistan actually has quantitative superiority.





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A definitive answer : Rafale + Meteor. Just wait 7 months and India will have it on its soil.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Mirage needs to be within range to fire the Mica IR. It would be busy dodging amraams long before that. Giving ample opportunity to the f16 to fire any standoff ammunition and escape.

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The range of a missile is also affected by the speed and altitude of the 2 planes. M2000 is faster, can fly higher than F16. And watch carrefully a MICA and an AMRAAM : one has long cord wings, not the other. fired from high altitude MICA match latest AMRAAM models.

AMRAAM is an older design than MICA : MICA is a 5th gen missile, when AMRAAM is gen 4+ ....

 

[Armand2REP]

What is the farthest target destroyed by an AMRAAM ?
a taiwanese M2000 shooted a drone at 67 km. It was 20 years ago nearly.... What about AMRAAM ?

The longest recorded AMRAAM kill was 25nm over Yugoslavia in 1999.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

A definitive answer : Rafale + Meteor. Just wait 7 months and India will have it on its soil.

18-36 Rafales wont be enough.

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[BON PLAN]

18-36 Rafales wont be enough.

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36 are already ordered.
At least 36 more, it's an evidence.
May be far far more (up to 250 say some)

 

[BON PLAN]

The longest recorded AMRAAM kill was 25nm over Yugoslavia in 1999.

so less than 50km for AMRAAM. maybe because the F15 or F16 radar are partialy blind ?

So less than 50km against a proved 67 for MICA. OK. set and match for MICA.

 

[Armand2REP]

so less than 50km for AMRAAM. maybe because the F15 or F16 radar are partialy blind ?

So less than 50km against a proved 67 for MICA. OK. set and match for MICA.

That is the longest combat kill, I do not know what the longest test shot was.

 

[Bhurki]

36 are already ordered.
At least 36 more, it's an evidence.
May be far far more (up to 250 say some)

$200mil x 250 = $50B...
India will buy only if France agrees to pay for all of them..

 

[Armand2REP]

India will buy only if France agrees to pay for all of them..

India is not a beggar nation like Pakistan that needs military aid.

 

[Ghost68]

$200mil x 250 = $50B...
India will buy only if France agrees to pay for all of them..

Cost per unit will come down as order size increases. But still we wont go for that many. 36 more that's the bottom line. Right now focus has shifted on tejas and amca.

 

[Flying Dagger]

India is not a beggar nation like Pakistan that needs military aid.

It's a satire dude take it like that .

36 are already ordered.
At least 36 more, it's an evidence.
May be far far more (up to 250 say some)

250

Unless Rafale win IN contract for 57 + possible follow on there is no chance the order will go beyond 18 - 36 .

With delays in Snecma and GTRE coming up together for Kaveri road seems tough.

F - 18 is already looking out for IN order

And Russian Su 57 development can anytime reverse the fate of Rafale.

 

[abhay rajput]

It's a satire dude take it like that .



250

Unless Rafale win IN contract for 57 + possible follow on there is no chance the order will go beyond 18 - 36 .

With delays in Snecma and GTRE coming up together for Kaveri road seems tough.

F - 18 is already looking out for IN order

And Russian Su 57 development can anytime reverse the fate of Rafale.

Here is an interesting thought . What if Russia offer su57 in mrca 2.0 instead of mig35

 

[Bhurki]

Cost per unit will come down as order size increases.

I already discounted the price $200m rather than $245m IAF paid for the initial 36 each.

Unless Rafale win IN contract for 57 + possible follow on there is no chance the order will go beyond 18 - 36 .

Unless follow on 65k ton carrier is allowed by Indian MoD, that order seems unlikely.

F - 18 is already looking out for IN order

F-18 may become a reality if India decides to use f404/f414 family engines on upcoming projects like tejas Mk2, amca rather than follow the tedious task of producing Kaveri from the ground up.

Here is an interesting thought . What if Russia offer su57 in mrca 2.0 instead of mig35

That would be amazing. Russians will ask Indians to bankroll their production lines and r&d budget yet again...