IAF Mirage 2000

[Neptune]

The Mirage needs to be within range to fire the Mica IR. It would be busy dodging amraams long before that. Giving ample opportunity to the f16 to fire any standoff ammunition and escape.

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It doesn’t always work like that in real life especially with incompetent Pakistan. Besides it’s SU-30s and Rafales that will mostly target Pakistani aircraft from BVR. If Mirage use terrain masking or just fly low enough to confuse Pakistani radars into disregarding the Mirage as ground clutter then the Mica can get a shot off. The Mirage appear to be penetrating aircraft meant to surprise the PAF...keep that in mind when reading the following examples:

You have to remember the Pakistan’s have a history of incompetence. During the Bin-laden raid the US flew some 200km inside Pakistani and raided the Bin-laden compound for 38 minutes. US forces used explosives, automatic weapons and helicopters outside a Pakistani military academy then flew back to Afghanistan which was another 200km journey. The Pakistanis launched their F-16 after the US already left

Then of course was Balakat where Pakistanis got their pants pulled down again; and the ensuing aerial engagement which fallowed afterwards in which two Indian Mig-21s went undetected inside and near Pakistani airspace at a time when Pakistan had no less then 24 aircraft airborne, including AWACS and ground radars. One of those Mig-21 penetrated at least 7km before it was shot down while trying to exit Pakistani airspace. If India had more aircraft present it’s possible the Pakistanis would have never have shot down that Mig-21 because they would be too busy engaging other Indian aircraft.

 

[Shiv sagar]

The border guards don't even have radar to pick up UAVs so clearly there is a lack of coverage at the LoC. The AFnet doesn't seem to be doing them any good either. This weakness has been exposed and recognised, the only question is what will be done to fix it. Until that is taken care of you wouldn't put S400 anywhere near the border.

Af net is incomplete as of now. It will get the mr sam in the late 2020 and some more radars assosiated with it. We may also be having some aerostat radars too with it from elta. Its your assumption that s400 is not capable to detect low flying drone Swarm, please be kind enough to provide any links to prove it, unless its just a baseless assumption.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

It doesn’t always work like that in real life especially with incompetent Pakistan. Besides it’s SU-30s and Rafales that will mostly target Pakistani aircraft from BVR. If Mirage use terrain masking or just fly low enough to confuse Pakistani radars into disregarding the Mirage as ground clutter then the Mica can get a shot off. The Mirage appear to be penetrating aircraft meant to surprise the PAF...keep that in mind when reading the following examples:

You have to remember the Pakistan’s have a history of incompetence. During the Bin-laden raid the US flew some 200km inside Pakistani and raided the Bin-laden compound for 38 minutes. US forces used explosives, automatic weapons and helicopters outside a Pakistani military academy then flew back to Afghanistan which was another 200km journey. The Pakistanis launched their F-16 after the US already left [emoji38]

Then of course was Balakat where Pakistanis got their pants pulled down again; and the ensuing aerial engagement which fallowed afterwards in which two Indian Mig-21s went undetected inside and near Pakistani airspace at a time when Pakistan had no less then 24 aircraft airborne, including AWACS and ground radars. One of those Mig-21 penetrated at least 7km before it was shot down while trying to exit Pakistani airspace. If India had more aircraft present it’s possible the Pakistanis would have never have shot down that Mig-21 because they would be too busy engaging other Indian aircraft.

Are we going to the war on the basis of our competence or Pakistans incompetence?

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[Armand2REP]

Af net is incomplete as of now. It will get the mr sam in the late 2020 and some more radars assosiated with it. We may also be having some aerostat radars too with it from elta. Its your assumption that s400 is not capable to detect low flying drone Swarm, please be kind enough to provide any links to prove it, unless its just a baseless assumption.

There is plenty of proof from Syria that S400 can't stop drone swarms. Their airbase gets peppered with the things all the time. The S400 can't even detect it much less shoot them down. Pantsir missiles are useless and have to rely on their guns.

 

[Neptune]

Are we going to the war on the basis of our competence or Pakistans incompetence?

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No just stating a fact that the Mirage 2000 is used offensively by India to exploit terrain masking and Pakistani inability to detect and respond in a timely manner. In other words it’s role appears to be an offensive platform meant to catch the Pakistanis off guard and unprepared where they (the Pakistani) don’t have the number.


Those Mirages striking Balakat could have very well engaged F-16s if they ever were scrabbled since they had AWACS and numerical superiority; moreover the Mirages penetration into Pakistani airspace closed some the distance gap and mitigated some of the range advantages of the AMRAAMS. The integrated defensive suite of the Mirages and ability to fly fast and low by using terrain would render the AMRAAMs largely ineffective. The Pakistanis would not even see many of the Mirages on radar until it was too late, if Pakistanis has no AWACS Mirages could appear behind F-16s and they would not even know it either.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

There is plenty of proof from Syria that S400 can't stop drone swarms. Their airbase gets peppered with the things all the time. The S400 can't even detect it much less shoot them down. Pantsir missiles are useless and have to rely on their guns.

PAF can drone swarm?

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[Neptune]

There is plenty of proof from Syria that S400 can't stop drone swarms. Their airbase gets peppered with the things all the time. The S400 can't even detect it much less shoot them down. Pantsir missiles are useless and have to rely on their guns.

What are you talking about? Russia has repelled dozens of swarm drone attacks on its bases and Pantsirs have reportedly even shot down improvised mortars. It’s not the S-400s job to engage drone swarms, that is the Pantsirs job and electric warfare units job.

The S-400 is meant to protect Russian bases from cruise missiles and aircraft.




https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/08/12/russia-repels-3rd-drone-attack-on-syrian-base-a66807



Here is intercepted/destroyed drones from the first ever attack on Russian bases. Since then Russia has become even more effective since they repelled many swarm attacks.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

No just stating a fact that the Mirage 2000 is used offensively by India to exploit terrain masking and Pakistani inability to detect and respond in a timely manner. In other words it’s role appears to be an offensive platform meant to catch the Pakistanis off guard and unprepared where they (the Pakistani) don’t have the number.


Those Mirages striking Balakat could have very well engaged F-16s if they ever were scrabbled since they had AWACS and numerical superiority; moreover the Mirages penetration into Pakistani airspace closed some the distance gap and mitigated some of the range advantages of the AMRAAMS. The integrated defensive suite of the Mirages and ability to fly fast and low by using terrain would render the AMRAAMs largely ineffective. The Pakistanis would not even see many of the Mirages on radar until it was too late, if Pakistanis has no AWACS Mirages could appear behind F-16s and they would not even know it either.

Pakistan has 10 Awacs. They will see the mirages coming and engage them with Amraams. Mirage ofcourse wil dodge them. But that will give f16s time to engage or carry out ground bombing.

Mirage will need to get much closer to engage them.

The Sukhois too is in the same predicament. It will be engaged by f16s and while it will dodge the c5, it will not be able to engage f16s due to the range of R77.

Except the Meteor of Rafale, none of the IAF jets can engage F16s at a range before the Amraam can engage it.

Unless we upgrade our missiles, f16s will hold an edge.

This is without the c7s. If paf gets C7s, then neither the R77-1 nor the I derby ER will be a match.

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[Armand2REP]

Here is intercepted/destroyed drones from the first ever attack on Russian bases. Since then Russia has become even more effective since they repelled many swarm attacks.

They don't look like they were intercepted, they look like they ran out of gas.

 

[Neptune]

They don't look like they were intercepted, they look like they ran out of gas.

Russia used electronic warfare and Pantsirs to disrupt the attack. Some of those drones got blown into little bits, running out of gas won’t cause that.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Pakistan has 10 Awacs. They will see the mirages coming and engage them with Amraams. Mirage ofcourse wil dodge them. But that will give f16s time to engage or carry out ground bombing.

Mirage will need to get much closer to engage them.

The Sukhois too is in the same predicament. It will be engaged by f16s and while it will dodge the c5, it will not be able to engage f16s due to the range of R77.

Except the Meteor of Rafale, none of the IAF jets can engage F16s at a range before the Amraam can engage it.

Unless we upgrade our missiles, f16s will hold an edge.

This is without the c7s. If paf gets C7s, then neither the R77-1 nor the I derby ER will be a match.

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They'll keep all those 10 Awacs in the sky to be eaten by Su/mig 29 long range missiles ?

Su and Mig 29 will get K - 77 not just R 77-1

 

[Neptune]

Pakistan has 10 Awacs. They will see the mirages coming and engage them with Amraams. Mirage ofcourse wil dodge them. But that will give f16s time to engage or carry out ground bombing.

Those AWACS can’t be airborne 24 hours a day 365 days a year and India would attack when Pakistan is most vulnerable and unprepared. The mountains in the area won’t allow Pakistan to see anything above a certain altitude. Like I said the Americans penetrated 200kms inside Pakistan and started blowing up shit for 38 minutes next to a Pakistani military academy, then left. The end result, those Pakistani F-16s were worthless after they scrambled only to find the Americans were long gone.

Mirage will need to get much closer to engage them.

The Sukhois too is in the same predicament. It will be engaged by f16s and while it will dodge the c5, it will not be able to engage f16s due to the range of R77.

If India wanted too it could launch R-77s at F-16s and cause them to “dodge” them too. The difference is who has the altitude, speed and numerical superiority to dictate the launches. Something Pakistan had on the 27th. You really think a single Pakistan F-16 or two will launch AMRAAMS at perhaps 4 or 8 or 12 SU-30s attacking them from different locations? Even if they did other Sukhois would close in from different directions and launch missiles at the F-16s. The battlefield is more complex then you make it out to be.


Another example..... during the Arab Israel wars Israel Shafrir-2 missiles downed dozens of enemy aircraft, however in the hands of the Argentinians during the Falkland war those same Shafrir-2 missiles were not hitting anything. The British used the AIM-9L which is similar if not less range then the Shafrir-2 but because of better tactics and training the British shot down many Mirages. If you study air warfare the victor is always the one that uses better tactics, deception and the element of surprise. The Israelis were often outnumbered and outmatched; however, the Israel dictated the battlefield and forced the Arabs to play into the strengths of the Israelis. In other words Isrealis avoided situations were the Arabs had then advantages, instead the Israelis lured the Arabs to fight were the Arabs and their aircraft/technology did not perform as well in certain altitudes, airspeed or environments.

An example for India would be, an SU-30 flying faster and higher than an F-16, the result would be the Sukhoi closing quickly on an F-16 and launching it’s R-77. The lower flying F-16 and it’s AMRAAMS will not not have the same range at low altitude as it does at high altitude.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

They'll keep all those 10 Awacs in the sky to be eaten by Su/mig 29 long range missiles ?

Su and Mig 29 will get K - 77 not just R 77-1

They will keep rotating the Awacs over a 24 hr cycle. PAF too will fire their PL 15s at our AWACS.

There is no indication of IAF inducting K77 and R 77-1. They have been test fired and offered. Not ordered.

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[Bhurki]

They'll keep all those 10 Awacs in the sky to be eaten by Su/mig 29 long range missiles ?

Theoretically 4 will be enough to guard the entire border.( While being 100 km away from the border at all times, considering advertised 350 km detection range of ZDK 03, even farther for 450 km erieye)

 

[Neptune]

They will keep rotating the Awacs over a 24 hr cycle. PAF too will fire their PL 15s at our AWACS.

There is no indication of IAF inducting K77 and R 77-1. They have been test fired and offered. Not ordered.

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And if those PL-15 were so great why did Pakistan not fire them on the 27th? Their range is nowhere near as advertised and the JF-17 radar pretty much sucks, if the JF-17s were able to I’m sure they would have fired off missiles; they didn’t, therefore the JF-17 and the PL-15 or whatever crap it carries had issues despite them having AWACS and numerical superiority.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Those AWACS can’t be airborne 24 hours a day 365 days a year and India would attack when Pakistan is most vulnerable and unprepared. The mountains in the area won’t allow Pakistan to see anything above a certain altitude. Like I said the Americans penetrated 200kms inside Pakistan and started blowing up shit for 38 minutes next to a Pakistani military academy, then left. The end result, those Pakistani F-16s were worthless after they scrambled only to find the Americans were long gone.








If India wanted too it could launch R-77s at F-16s and cause them to “dodge” them too. The difference is who has the altitude, speed and numerical superiority to dictate the launches. Something Pakistan had on the 27th. You really think a single Pakistan F-16 or two will launch AMRAAMS at perhaps 4 or 8 or 12 SU-30s attacking them from different locations? Even if they did other Sukhois would close in from different directions and launch missiles at the F-16s. The battlefield is more complex then you make it out to be.


Another example..... during the Arab Israel wars Israel Shafrir-2 missiles downed dozens of enemy aircraft, however in the hands of the Argentinians during the Falkland war those same Shafrir-2 missiles were not hitting anything. The British used the AIM-9L which is similar if not less range then the Shafrir-2 but because of better tactics and training the British shot down many Mirages. If you study air warfare the victor is always the one that uses better tactics, deception and the element of surprise. The Israelis were often outnumbered and outmatched; however, the Israel dictated the battlefield and forced the Arabs to play into the strengths of the Israelis. In other words Isrealis avoided situations were the Arabs had then advantages, instead the Israelis lured the Arabs to fight were the Arabs and their aircraft/technology did not perform as well in certain altitudes, airspeed or environments.

An example for India would be, an SU-30 flying faster and higher than an F-16, the result would be the Sukhoi closing quickly on an F-16 and launching it’s R-77. The lower flying F-16 and it’s AMRAAMS will not not have the same range at low altitude as it does at high altitude.

Paf not engaging usaf was more due to what would have been the US retaliation.

They have enough AWACS to keep rotating for 24x7.

Again you are diverging into tactics, while i am talking about the qualitative disadvantage of IAF in BVR engagement.

If IAF Sukhois had R77-1 on 27th, then F16s would have been engaged and Abhi wouldnot be chasing then into paki airspace. He was shot down and we lost face.

Thank the gods that none of their H4s hit anything, else it would have been a disaster.

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[Flying Dagger]

They will keep rotating the Awacs over a 24 hr cycle. PAF too will fire their PL 15s at our AWACS.

There is no indication of IAF inducting K77 and R 77-1. They have been test fired and offered. Not ordered.

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Why do you think they are not coming in ?
R 77 1 is already in for your info. K 77 will join in shortly or may be we have already got a small package.

And once the Awacs killer get in on an airborne su i doubt PAF will risk their Awacs any closer to the range of Su leaving F 16 and junk vulnerable.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

And if those PL-15 were so great why did Pakistan not fire them on the 27th? Their range is nowhere near as advertised and the JF-17 radar pretty much sucks, if the JF-17s were able to I’m sure they would have fired off missiles; they didn’t, therefore the JF-17 and the PL-15 or whatever crap it carries had issues despite them having AWACS and numerical superiority.

Their Amraams did the job, they didnot need the PL 15. They were not targetting our Awacs. They likely carried the PL12, which also outranges the Mica and R77.

Right now Sukhoi can see the pakis first but cant engage, pakis will see us later but can engage first due to their better Bvr missile range.

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[AmoghaVarsha]

Why do you think they are not coming in ?
R 77 1 is already in for your info. K 77 will join in shortly or may be we have already got a small package.

And once the Awacs killer get in on an airborne su i doubt PAF will risk their Awacs any closer to the range of Su leaving F 16 and junk vulnerable.

R77-1 has been test fired. There is no news regarding any orders.

Neither is there any order of the I Derby.

K77 isnt exactly the AWACS killer, a AWACS killer would be the KS 172.

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[Bhurki]

And once the Awacs killer get in on an airborne su i doubt PAF will risk their Awacs any closer to the range of Su leaving F 16 and junk vulnerable.

Not sure if you can call R77 variants as awacs killer. The motor just doesn't add enough energy for the missile to be of any use at 100 mile range.
The KS172 or R37 are more suited for the job. They are not agile enough to attack fighters manuevering at 150-200 mile range, but can make short work of cargo, refuelers and awacs.