IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[ezsasa]

any non-indian non-pakistani defence forums discussing this event?

 

[Brood Father]

Curious case of second pilot... This is serious stuff. .Ghafoor and IK both admitting the same thing that they have two pilots in custody and one of them is injured

 

[A chauhan]

I am tired with false flaggers, @mods please take care of them.

 

[Akhileshwa]

This forum is pathetic for language use and kind of debate.

World media is shot and our media is great. Govt statement is right and asking for some proof is wrong. We have great keyboard butt clinch warrior who defend their biased openion here.

True. Even our own eminent members claimed that the Pakistanis are making up Abhinandan's video. If only our administration didn't such high resistance to releasing any sort of proof.

 

[sunnyv]

It's sad to see kind of language used in argument and counterargument discussion. Forum looks pathetic with such low level personal attack.

Also no doubt the media handling by the Indian gov and army media was below par after 27th attack.

First - For some reason and pressure gov decided to deescalate. That was a blunder. Once a full attack was declared across border, it was bound to hurt sovereignty of the Pakistan. And everyone expected response. Best would have been give a reply back. But perhaps gov felt to pressure by Indian public calling for talks and peace.

Second - Either Indian planners miscalculated response from Pakistan and never expected such swift response. Or were shocked. Pilot getting captured was another blow.

Third - Opposition trying to get every inch of flesh and blood in elections resorted to Proof game. Which only played into hands of Pakistan and Western media.

Fourth - Truth may never be revealed. Even if F16 was shot we will never come to know since we dont have HUD video of Mig21. As such credibility of IAF and gov is so low that domestic as well as western audiences will never buy this narrative.

Perhaps - Another attack will settle this issue of credibility. Or may be another lost battle on Terrorism for India just like Parliament and Mumbai attacks.

 

[Brood Father]

It's sad to see kind of language used in argument and counterargument discussion. Forum looks pathetic with such low level personal attack.

Also no doubt the media handling by the Indian gov and army media was below par after 27th attack.

First - For some reason and pressure gov decided to deescalate. That was a blunder. Once a full attack was declared across border, it was bound to hurt sovereignty of the Pakistan. And everyone expected response. Best would have been give a reply back. But perhaps gov felt to pressure by Indian public calling for talks and peace.

Second - Either Indian planners miscalculated response from Pakistan and never expected such swift response. Or were shocked. Pilot getting captured was another blow.

Third - Opposition trying to get every inch of flesh and blood in elections resorted to Proof game. Which only played into hands of Pakistan and Western media.

Fourth - Truth may never be revealed. Even if F16 was shot we will never come to know since we dont have HUD video of Mig21. As such credibility of IAF and gov is so low that domestic as well as western audiences will never buy this narrative.

Perhaps - Another attack will settle this issue of credibility. Or may be another lost battle on Terrorism for India just like Parliament and Mumbai attacks.

Once pilot was in their custody we lost the initiative. We cannot go on full throttle (which we should have) as public sentiment changed to get him back not the revenge
Adding to that lets credit Pakistan for their false propaganda machinery. They know how to use the propaganda to change the opinion. Videos of serving him tea and his confession of the professionalism of pak army helped to change the narrative and very good and timely statements of IK made him blue eyed boy even in India

However one good takeaway was the intent of India to take the bull by the horn.. We have thwarted the Pakistan nuclear bluff which may be unnerving for pak think tank
Next terror attack of this magnitude no matter the government at the center they would be under immense pressure to take military action , only the intent will stop them not the threshold

PS : I apologize for the profanity I did to the thread. Emotions was very high during the crisis however there should be more moderation to increase the quality of the forum

 

[Darth Malgus]

Once pilot was in their custody we lost the initiative. We cannot go on full throttle (which we should have) as public sentiment changed to get him back not the revenge.
Adding to that lets credit Pakistan for their false propaganda machinery. They know how to use the propaganda to change the opinion. Videos of serving him tea and his confession of the professionalism of pak army helped to change the narrative and very good and timely statements of IK made him blue eyed boy even in India

However one good takeaway was the intent of India to take the bull by the horn.. We have thwarted the Pakistan nuclear bluff which may be unnerving for pak think tank
Next terror attack of this magnitude no matter the government at the center they would be under immense pressure to take military action , only the intent will stop them not the threshold

PS : I apologize for the profanity I did to the thread. Emotions was very high during the crisis however there should be more moderation to increase the quality of the forum

That is assuming if one looks at public sentiments by what available on twitter trends. People still want revenge, people still want to fight back. Which is precisely the reason the Govt. is not giving any information. The only thing govt. has said until now is that that there are "ongoing operations" and de-escalation will not in any way be linked to freeing the pilot. Govt/ has not even mentioned de-escalation until now. So I advise we at least wait for more info. I am of an opinion that it's not over until its over. So let's wait and see how India responds to the entire Drama across the border.

I am also going to entirely disagree to this was a "Lost war", as claimed by a previous member. We can already see Pakistan and its global isolation. Pakistan being humiliated in the IOC. Majority of the European powers backing us up. They lost an F-16 and one of their best fighter pilots and we got ours back in less than 72 hours. Sorry, but there is no logical way to spin this as a defeat unless you are one of those buying into the pointless propaganda.

Propaganda only goes so far, someday the truth will come out and then nothing will matter. If pakis had accepted the death of thier pilot, thier entire propaganda would hv failed. We know one pilot is dead another's status is unknown. Do we really want to be that nation that forgets the sacrifices of its heroes to get a one up in propaganda. HELL NO!!!

Hillarious to see people judging IAF,s "credibility" over a single engagement. Where a 2nd generation jet managed to do the impossible.


P.S Im sorry, I'm ignoring every one who is trying to spread defeatism and hopelessness. No matter who they are. So my ignore list is quiet long.

 

[BoseRaoModi]

I don't see how India thwarted the Pakistani nuceat threat by launching a tiny limited one time strike on a terrorist camp. If india launches an offensive that captures some pakjabi territory then we can say that.

Right now its our neighbors dog bit us and we shot it but the neighbor didn't try to burn down our house so we won?

 

[Darth Malgus]

I don't see how India thwarted the Pakistani nuceat threat by launching a tiny limited one time strike on a terrorist camp. If india launches an offensive that captures some pakjabi territory then we can say that.

Right now its our neighbors dog bit us and we shot it but the neighbor didn't try to burn down our house so we won?

We keep extending thier nuclear red line. They keep receiving it.

 

[BoseRaoModi]

As stupid and ridiculous as pakjabis are I doubt their nuclear threshold was at a limited one time strike against non state actors. If india had struck at many training camps, depots and launch pads over a prolonged time then we could say that.

 

[Enquirer]

Curious case of second pilot... This is serious stuff. .Ghafoor and IK both admitting the same thing that they have two pilots in custody and one of them is injured

Paki ISI already thought of the curious minds...........they're now spinning a story that the second pilot is actually an Israeli pilot

The bald asshole, Zafar Hilali is fronting the story....

https://ummat.net/2019/03/07/662216/

 

[asianobserve]

Another interesting article on the India-Pakistan latest flare up, although not directly related to the alleged F-16 shot down but nonetheless equally relevant as it illustrates the crisis faced in war by different countries - hyper nationalist fervor - with the first casualty being objectivity. In times of hyper nationalist fervor no one wants to be branded as a traitor by asking questions...


The India-Pakistan Conflict Was a Parade of Lies
The internet contributed to the culture of mendacity in a fight between nuclear neighbors.


By Farhad Manjoo
Opinion Columnist

Televisions last month broadcasting details of the conflict between Pakistan and India.CreditRehan Khan/EPA, via Shutterstock

Image

Televisions last month broadcasting details of the conflict between Pakistan and India.CreditCreditRehan Khan/EPA, via Shutterstock

The internet truly is super-duper fake, and thanks to the malleability of digital media and the jet fuel of network virality, a digital lie can spread more quickly, and cause more damage, than an analog one.

We all know that. Still, the blame-the-internet formulation has grown useless lately, because “the internet” has become inseparable from everything else. Social networks are now so deeply embedded into global culture that it feels irresponsible to think of them as some exogenous force. Instead, when it comes to misinformation, the internet is a mere cog in the larger machinery of deceit. There are other important gears in that machine: politicians and celebrities; parts of the news media (especially television, where most people still get their news); and motivated actors of all sorts, from governments to scammers to multinational brands.

As these players adapt to a digital politics, they infect and become infected by novel possibilities for misinformation. It is in the confluence of all these forces that you come upon the true nightmare: a society in which small and big lies pervade every discussion, across every medium; where deceit is assumed, trust is naïve, and a consensus view of reality begins to feel frighteningly anachronistic.

After I learned about them, I tried to follow the currents of misinformation in the unfolding conflict between two nuclear-armed nations on the brink of hot war.

What I found was alarming; it should terrify the world, not just Indians and Pakistanis. Whether you got your news from outlets based in India or Pakistan during the conflict, you would have struggled to find your way through a miasma of lies. The lies flitted across all media: there was lying on Facebook, Twitter and WhatsApp; there was lying on TV; there were lies from politicians; there were lies from citizens.

Besides outright lies, just about everyone, including many journalists, played fast and loose with facts. Many discussions were tinged with rumor and supposition. Pictures were doctored, doctored pictures were shared and aired, and real pictures were dismissed as doctored. Many of the lies were directed and weren’t innocent slip-ups in the fog of war but efforts to discredit the enemy, to boost nationalistic pride, to shame anyone who failed to toe a jingoistic line. The lies fit a pattern, clamoring for war, and on both sides they suggested a society that had slipped the bonds of rationality and fallen completely to the post-fact order.

The lies began immediately after Indian forces attacked what they described as a terrorist training camp in a Pakistani town called Balakot. The Indian government offered no visual proof of the effectiveness of its strikes, and there is still debate among Indian politicians about what was hit. Pakistan’s military quickly put out pictures from Balakot showing not much damage.

Indian media, however, appeared eager to fill in a government-friendly narrative. As the Indian fact-checking site Alt News documented, several outlets, including some of the country’s largest TV news networks, aired what they described as exclusive footage of Indian fighter jets attacking Balakot.

Here’s India Today’s breathless coverage of the clip:


actually first posted online in 2017, Alt News found. It appeared to have been resurrected on social networks last week and then lifted by Indian TV networks as proof of the attack.

Not that Pakistani media were above fakery. After Pakistan’s Air Force shot down an Indian jet and captured a pilot who was later released, Pakistani media began airing images of downed aircraft. Except, as fact checkers documented, the pictures were old, showing wreckage from a previous crash.

You would think fact-checking this stuff would limit its spread. Instead, what happened was that each side weaponized fact-checking, taunting the other for wallowing in lies without acknowledging its own part in all the fakery.

Here are Indian anchors — from a network that pushed its own fake images — sliming Pakistani media with the hashtag #PakFakeClaim:



Pakistan media is using an old Jodhpur crash footage to show it shot down a MiG. | @RShivshankar and @hk_356 with the proof.


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What I’ve shared here is just a taste. If you dive into the tireless fact-checking sites policing the region, you’ll find scores more lies from last week, some that flow across both sides of the conflict and many so intricate they defy easy explanation.

And you will be filled with a sense of despair.

The Indian government recently introduced a set of draconian digital restrictions meant, it says, to reduce misinformation. But when mendacity crosses all media and all social institutions, when it becomes embedded in the culture, focusing on digital platforms misses the point.

In India, Pakistan and everywhere else, addressing digital mendacity will require a complete social overhaul. “The battle is going to be long and difficult,” Govindraj Ethiraj, a journalist who runs the Indian fact-checking site Boom, told me.The information war is a forever war. We’re just getting started.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/opinion/india-pakistan-news.html

 

[mayfair]

This forum is pathetic for language use and kind of debate.

World media is shot and our media is great. Govt statement is right and asking for some proof is wrong. We have great keyboard butt clinch warrior who defend their biased openion here.

Pathetic language is right and grammar even more so.

Exhibit A.

 

[mayfair]

I see the usual suspects are out, calling for proofs and dumping on GoI, IAF, people of India and what not.

Like a clockwork. It's as if we've had a proliferation of @SELVAMs on these fora.

Ironically, the original @SELVAM is far more cryptic this time.

 

[duhastmish]

Pathetic language is right and grammar even more so.

Exhibit A.

Absolutely, your sentence proves it. It's as bad as mine.

 

[cannonfodder]

All IAF claims have been proven with solid proofs:
1. IAF strikes on terrorist camps
2. IAF claim of PAF using F-16.

They also owned up to mig 21 shoot down and our wing commander captured(note that at that time it was not known if second fighter remains will be found or not); So I have no doubt that IAF has scored F-16 kill. I prefer factually & correct reporting from IAF/GOI sources as compared to random non-factual claims coming from Porkis and even Indian posters. We may not have visual confirmation of F-16 but I am pretty sure IAF has digital signature data of the entire encounter (due to AWACS in vicinity).

Also I think it must have already been discussed with friendly counterparts from other countries over chai/whisky. We should watch out for Paki F-16 accident reports for atleast couple of years.

 

[mayfair]

Absolutely, your sentence proves it. It's as bad as mine.

Exhibit B.

Mental destruction.

Chalo you admitted, you have bad grammar.

Use Grammarly next time.

 

[asianobserve]

There should be no personal attacks. It destroys the integrity of the discussion.

 

[duhastmish]

Exhibit B.

Mental destruction.

Chalo you admitted, you have bad grammar.

Use Grammarly next time.

Oh aap to petticoat wale ho. Carry on kale angrej.

Tu BADA Victoria Ka chora hai. RUk ja Rikki marrtin.

 

[mayfair]

So now you are racist as well.

Well done