IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[asianobserve]

Look at the centerline EFT in that IAF Bison photo you posted. It's bigger than that 2 wing mounted drop tanks and certainly does not have the tail fins of the 2 other EFTs.

 

[asianobserve]

We can clearly see from the above photo of the centerline EFT of an IAF Bison that the front of the EFT is pointed while its rear end is conical, again perfectly matching the profile of the crumpled EFT loaded unto the Pakistani Army truck.

 

[indiatester]

We can clearly see from the above photo of the centerline EFT of an IAF Bison that the front of the EFT is pointed while its rear end is conical, again perfectly matching the profile of the crumpled EFT loaded unto the Pakistani Army truck.

Possible.
Finding the debris of two different aircraft not part of a collision at the same place is also not that probable.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

In that case my observation might be faulty? Because I'm finding the cone more akin to F-16 EFT than MiG-21.

 

[cannonfodder]

It is known that photo/video's is Mig 21 debry only but some people made mistake in analyzing the videos/photos. EFT may belong to Mig or F-16 it must have released before engaging in dog fight and no proof of kill. F-16 involvement is already proven with AIM debry. IAF has not relied on this pics and videos to claim f-16 kill. They had awacs and atleast couple of aircrafts in air during fight.

Don't want to comment on credibility of PAF

 

[asianobserve]

In that case my observation might be faulty? Because I'm finding the cone more akin to F-16 EFT than MiG-21.

The recovered EFT in the Mig-21 crash site does match with a Mig-21bis centerline EFT. It is certainy not an F-16 EFT.

 

[StealthFlanker]

We will continue to dissect one of the so called evidence of F-16 shot down this piece of wreckage:

What you're looking at is the internal structure of a thin aircraft aluminum skin. The bigger vertical structures are called "formers" while the smaller horizontal structures that it pins to the aluminum skin are called "stringers," see illustration below. These skin support structures are either wielded or riveted to the skin and as shown above, given enough stress, will peel off from the skin.

The picture above that is often cited by Indian defense enthusiasts could never come from an F-16 fuselage however since the internal surface of F-16 fuselage is colored dark yellow:

But this part is a perfect fit for a Mig-21 fuselage as shown by the photo of the inner portion of a downed Mig-21:

And if you look closely at a GE F110 -

- you'll readily notice that the exposed rectangular patterns on its rear body is uniform, closely packed together, small in sizes and are clearly part of the surface that it supports. It's either this part is machined or forged as a unitary structure, and is clearly thicker than aircraft skin.

Here's a photo of a GE F110 engine after it figured out in a crash:

Look at how sturdy, solid and heavy that portion of the engine with the rectangular patters appear. In this crash this portion of the engine certainly did not get peeled off like what is being shown in Indian media in support of the claim of F-16 shot down.

Of course it does not help that Pakistan F-16s are not supplied with GE F110 engines.

Especially consider that PW engine on Paki F-16 has diamond patterns

 

[mayfair]

Not all F-16s are P&W equipped.

Here's another pic of F-16 crash

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-South-Carolina-US-collision-crash-smash-base

The F-16 debris in the left image is has grid-like patterns, nothing like the honeycomb seen on P&Ws

Another image

 

[StealthFlanker]

Not all F-16s are P&W equipped.

Here's another pic of F-16 crash

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-South-Carolina-US-collision-crash-smash-base

The F-16 debris in the left image is has grid-like patterns, nothing like the honeycomb seen on P&Ws

Another image

The thing is: all Paki F-16 are equipped with PW engine, none with GE engine, so it is point less to put up photo of GE engine.
And no, Jordan F-16 MLU don't use GE engine either, the first F-16 with GE engine is Block 30 and their inlet are enlarged as GE engines need more air flow.

 

[asianobserve]

Even granting for the sake of academic discussion that PAF was issued F110 engined F-16s (which they were not), as you can see from the photo of a burned out F110 in that crashed F-16 (due to mid-air collission with a Cessna) it does not look similar to this photo:

This photo shows a portion of the fuselage of a Mig-21, not jet engine walling.

Indeed, basic logic and reasonable probabilities alone will tell you that the odds of IAF Mig-21 and PAF F-16 crashing on the same spot is highly improbable, especially if you consider IAF's claim that its Mig-21 shot down first a Pakistani F-16 before it (Mig-21) was itself shot down. So even if they were within visual range at the time of the engagement still due to differences in location, direction, speed, time of shot down, the chance of these 2 aircraft landing on the same place much more on top of each other (as what the fuselage-to-F110 engine walling theory and F-16 EFT theory suggest) is close to impossible.

 

[Archer]

Guys ISI runs the country. Keep hoping you will find wreckage, but even internet has been shut off in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Residents have had their smartphones etc checked and even seized per reports to prevent any embarassing pics from leaking. Truth will emerge only a few years from now.

 

[chetan chopade]

Even granting for the sake of academic discussion that PAF was issued F110 engined F-16s (which they were not), as you can see from the photo of a burned out F110 in that crashed F-16 (due to mid-air collission with a Cessna) it does not look similar to this photo:

This photo shows a portion of the fuselage of a Mig-21, not jet engine walling.

Indeed, basic logic and reasonable probabilities alone will tell you that the odds of IAF Mig-21 and PAF F-16 crashing on the same spot is highly improbable, especially if you consider IAF's claim that its Mig-21 shot down first a Pakistani F-16 before it (Mig-21) was itself shot down. So even if they were within visual range at the time of the engagement still due to differences in location, direction, speed, time of shot down, the chance of these 2 aircraft landing on the same place is close to impossible.

lets us agree that all the pics (released by PAK) of fallen aircraft in POK are of IAF mig21...happy now??? IAF wish that some part of F-16 fuselage fell inside Indian territory or if the PAF pilot chute drifted on our side...but no luck!!! Pakistanis has long history of deception and hiding facts from public...while IA-IAF doesn't...

surrender in 1971
OBL
Abottabad
fallen Pak soldiers in Kargil
PA-terrorist industry
afgan taliban support

the list is endless...

its a matter common sense and not just videos and pics on internet!

 

[asianobserve]

Guys ISI runs the country. Keep hoping you will find wreckage, but even internet has been shut off in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Residents have had their smartphones etc checked and even seized per reports to prevent any embarassing pics from leaking. Truth will emerge only a few years from now.

If there were other wreckage inside Pakistan from that encounter then it'll eventually come out. Maybe not right away. Not even ISI can completely prevent leaks in the age of internet connectivity.

 

[asianobserve]

lets us agree that all the pics (released by PAK) of fallen aircraft in POK are of IAF mig21...happy now??? IAF wish that some part of F-16 fuselage fell inside Indian territory or if the PAF pilot chute drifted on our side...but no luck!!! Pakistanis has long history of deception and hiding facts from public...while IA-IAF doesn't...

surrender in 1971
OBL
Abottabad
fallen Pak soldiers in Kargil
PA-terrorist industry
afgan taliban support

the list is endless...

its a matter common sense and not just videos and pics on internet!

Relax mate.

Nobody is saying that the F-16 shoot down did not happen. All we're saying is that based on available evidence there is no concrete indication yet of that claim. Rest assured that all fighters can be shot down given the right tactics, luck and stupidity on the part of the shot down pilot. Even the F-22 can be shot down by older planes. Thus, we will believe it when we're satisfied by evidence.

 

[chetan chopade]

Relax mate.

Nobody is saying that the F-16 shoot down did not happen. All we're saying is that based on available evidence there is no concrete indication yet of that claim. Rest assured that all fighters can be shot down given the right tactics, luck and stupidity on the part of the shot down pilot. Even the F-22 can be shot down by older planes. Thus, we will believe it when we're satisfied by evidence.

there are at least 4 online videos where POK residents say 2 (sometimes 3) parachutes are seen...chats of "another pilot in the area"...in the same videos a fireball is free falling from tremendous height...

what should one "neutral observer" make sense of that?
could the current mig-21 wreckage with its nose cone, tail area and wings still in relatively good shape be like that in such "fiery crash"?

no doubt from you at conflicting ISPR statements about 3-2-1 pilots?

 

[mayfair]

That all P&W engines have a honeycomb pattern is not entirely correct.

F100-PW-200 does not have the honeycomb pattern. This is the engine that powered all the initial F-16s for a long time.

The honeycomb pattern belongs to F100-PW-229

Once again, while it's evident that F-16 was indeed shot down, it's still a speculation as to which configuration F-16 was shot down

 

[asianobserve]

there are at least 4 online videos where POK residents say 2 (sometimes 3) parachutes are seen...chats of "another pilot in the area"...in the same videos a fireball is free falling from tremendous height...

what should one "neutral observer" make sense of that?
could the current mig-21 wreckage with its nose cone, tail area and wings still in relatively good shape be like that in such "fiery crash"?

no doubt from you at conflicting ISPR statements about 3-2-1 pilots?

It's very hard to believe in raw videos posted online. I will believe it if these so called videos are properly verified at source. Notice that not even the IAF which no doubt wants to show further proof of their F-16 shot down claim is referencing these videos.

 

[StealthFlanker]

That all P&W engines have a honeycomb pattern is not entirely correct.

F100-PW-200 does not have the honeycomb pattern. This is the engine that powered all the initial F-16s for a long time.

The honeycomb pattern belongs to F100-PW-229

Once again, while it's evident that F-16 was indeed shot down, it's still a speculation as to which configuration F-16 was shot down

That an optical illusion due to low resolution of the photo:
If you look very closely:
This is PW 220

there are at least 4 online videos where POK residents say 2 (sometimes 3) parachutes are seen

 

[asianobserve]

That all P&W engines have a honeycomb pattern is not entirely correct.

F100-PW-200 does not have the honeycomb pattern. This is the engine that powered all the initial F-16s for a long time.

The honeycomb pattern belongs to F100-PW-229

Once again, while it's evident that F-16 was indeed shot down, it's still a speculation as to which configuration F-16 was shot down

Even if we assume that this is the particulsr kind of engine that currently powers PAF F-16s, the engine casing in that photo is very different from the patterns in the photo often cited as proof of F-16 shot down.

 

[vampyrbladez]

That an optical illusion due to low resolution of the photo:
If you look very closely:
This is PW 220

The aircraft used by Pakis is one with a MLU pattern. Those carry the GE engines.

Not all F-16s are P&W equipped.

Here's another pic of F-16 crash

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-South-Carolina-US-collision-crash-smash-base

The F-16 debris in the left image is has grid-like patterns, nothing like the honeycomb seen on P&Ws

Another image