HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[Bleh]

But they are moving ahead for the 6 Apaches for $1BN for the IA for Trump's visit.

$200 million dollar each!!!? Isn't its unit cost supposed to be less than $50mil?.. How can it be 4 times even with additional shit? Buying the whole assembly line or what?

 

[ezsasa]

$200 million dollar each!!!? Isn't its unit cost supposed to be less than $50mil?.. How can it be 4 times even with additional shit? Buying the whole assembly line or what?

Probably buying more missiles and ammo this time.

 

[Chinmoy]

But they are moving ahead for the 6 Apaches for $1BN for the IA for Trump's visit.

That 1Bn$ contract is for 6 nos of P-8I, not Apache.

 

[samsaptaka]

$200 million dollar each!!!? Isn't its unit cost supposed to be less than $50mil?.. How can it be 4 times even with additional shit? Buying the whole assembly line or what?

And they absolutely scream about paying 40 mil for one Tejas !!!!

 

[abingdonboy]

And we are yet to see user trails of Helina( with new seeker) and SANT from LCH, LCH is useless without those.

And yet IAF/IA are okay to accept the Rudras without ATGMs? Trails are imminent so why hold back deliveries until then? Concurrent development is the reality of modern mil projects, almost all new Western systems are accepted into service in an unfinished state and then receive the updates at a later date.


The ATGM issue is a total red herring, LCH got IOC in 2017, HAL has begun LSP production and IA/IAF can't even place the orders?

It's getting utterly sickening to keep seeing the same story repeated everywhere now- plenty of Indian systems being overlooked just for more needless imports- SIG 716, AK203, T-90, 11536 frigates, Ka-226, NSAMS, S400, NUH and now even this news of the ATOTHS towed arty?? Wtf is going on?

10s of billions of USD outflowing for utterly no reason other than to line the pockets of MoD and service officials.

$200 million dollar each!!!? Isn't its unit cost supposed to be less than $50mil?.. How can it be 4 times even with additional shit? Buying the whole assembly line or what?

Deal will include Weapons, training, spares, setting up infrastructure etc but yes the price for these beasts is eye-watering

That 1Bn$ contract is for 6 nos of P-8I, not Apache.

Nope, approx $1BN for these 6 Apaches

The deal for six AH-64E Apache attack helicopters for the Indian Army, estimated to cost around $930 million,

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...apache-attack-helicopters/article30361497.ece


Even with spares and weapons what a horrendously expensive machine this will be and the Army wants 39+ of them? That's going to cost at least another $4-5BN. You could buy 36 more Rafales, 3+ SSN, 100+ LCH/Rudra/ALH, 400+ Arjuns etc etc for similar money.



The Fin Min flagged the cost of 6 A330 MRTT for $1BN as too expensive back in 2010ish but this just sails through?

There's no sense or logic at work here, just morons with no sense.

Buying these gold-plated Apaches just to massage the egos of IA generals who were b*tthurt that the IAF got their toys and not them.

And they absolutely scream about paying 40 mil for one Tejas !!!!

When there are funds shortages it only ever seems to be indigenous projects that suffer, imports still find a way to be finalised.

 

[Defcon 1]

And yet IAF/IA are okay to accept the Rudras without ATGMs? Trails are imminent so why hold back deliveries until then? Concurrent development is the reality of modern mil projects, almost all new Western systems are accepted into service in an unfinished state and then receive the updates at a later date.

False equivalence, there is no western helicopter which as been serving for 6 years without weapons like Rudra. Show me one. Rudra's lack of weapons is a genuine problem. Accept it instead of trying to whitewash the issue.

The ATGM issue is a total red herring, LCH got IOC in 2017, HAL has begun LSP production and IA/IAF can't even place the orders?

Why would they place orders for LCH when they already have so many Rudras without weapons.

 

[Defcon 1]

And they absolutely scream about paying 40 mil for one Tejas !!!!

After reduced cost of 39000 crore, the cost will still be around 66 million per plane, not 40.

 

[Shaitan]

Why would they place orders for LCH when they already have so many Rudras without weapons.

Not the problem of LCH or Rudra platform. LCH can still be validated and in production while ATGMs came online. There isnt going to be a war tomorrow.

 

[Defcon 1]

Not the problem of LCH or Rudra platform. LCH can still be validated and in production while ATGMs came online. There isnt going to be a war tomorrow.

The point is prioritization. If you have limited money, which platform should be ordered first? the one which can be used in war immediately, or the one which will just remain a participant in airshows till weapons are integrated on it. One should see that since there are already so many Rudras in service, even if Helina were to enter production tomorrow, it will still take some years to produce enough to it to arm those Rudras. Helina for LCH will come later.

 

[Suryavanshi]

But they are moving ahead for the 6 Apaches for $1BN for the IA for Trump's visit.

Mudi ji bending over backward for the Trump kaka, never thought I would see this day.
If a Strategic Partner is a liability for us then such Partnership belongs to the dumpster trash.

 

[Deathstar]

Mudi ji bending over backward for the Trump kaka, never thought I would see this day.
If a Strategic Partner is a liability for us then such Partnership belongs to the dumpster trash.

Mudiji is bending over everyone. US /China/ Russia. I am starting to hate him

 

[ezsasa]

Mudi ji bending over backward for the Trump kaka, never thought I would see this day.
If a Strategic Partner is a liability for us then such Partnership belongs to the dumpster trash.

How so? There is a trade deficit for US. We are saying we can’t compromise on deals which can impact workers and farmers, we’d rather buy high value defence items.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Mudiji is bending over everyone. US /China/ Russia. I am starting to hate him

If no deal is being signed then I don't see any bending over.
Although he still thinks he can bring Chinese to table over deals and interests ain't happening until India not become third largest economy and that also over 10 trillion one,he can show something by helping Taiwan,maybe waiting for ssns as well as ssbns.

 

[Shaitan]

The point is prioritization. If you have limited money, which platform should be ordered first? the one which can be used in war immediately, or the one which will just remain a participant in airshows till weapons are integrated on it. One should see that since there are already so many Rudras in service, even if Helina were to enter production tomorrow, it will still take some years to produce enough to it to arm those Rudras. Helina for LCH will come later.

That is true, but also depends if you believe only 6 apaches for that much for the IA is a priority as well, when most of the IA look like they're out Vietnam.

 

[abingdonboy]

False equivalence, there is no western helicopter which as been serving for 6 years without weapons like Rudra. Show me one. Rudra's lack of weapons is a genuine problem. Accept it instead of trying to whitewash the issue.

Utter nonsense.

Like I said there are countless modern mil projects that see concurrent development. Accepting the LCH into service now will allow HAL to stabilise production, work out any issues there may be with production and operational service ahead of the ATGM issue being addressed if the IA/IAF could look beyond their noses for a moment and see the bigger picture they would understand this. But these morons don't think like this, Indian generals are trained up as import experts, they have no idea how to create anything or support local developments. They will recite foreign brochures but have no idea of what is available in their own backyard.


Besides, HELINA will be ready for operational deployments in the next 1-2 years, how long before the Apaches that are to be ordered in 2020 come? 3 years minimum. So even the argument that you are buying an off the shelf ready to fight solution falls flat.

Besides Rudra (and LCH if entered into service now) still has rockets and a cannon, ATGM is the only thing outstanding.


The point is, what is IA's/IAF's long term vision (do they have one or are they just drooling over foreign toys?)? If it is IBGs supported by 150++ attack helicopters (Rudras don't count) then LCH is the obvious way to get to this goal and hence needs long term support from day one. Any war that breaks out in the next 2-3 years can be handled by existing systems (Mi-35s still have some teeth) so this argument that LCH can't be accepted because it doesn't have ATGMs is so myopic to the point that I can't even comprehend how someone can actually make it.

Man, projects like F35, AH-46E, AH-1Z etc etc all have 100s/1000s of committed orders from the outset and Indian companies have to beg and plead for just 15 LSP models.

Why would they place orders for LCH when they already have so many Rudras without weapons.

So by that logic what's the need for the LCH at all? Rudra is a perfect substitute for the LCH?

Mudi ji bending over backward for the Trump kaka, never thought I would see this day.
If a Strategic Partner is a liability for us then such Partnership belongs to the dumpster trash.

Indian leadership is too immature and ignorant to understand what statesmanship is, they think they are buying influence, they think of their country as a backwater 3rd rate power that has to suck up to the big boys. They talk a big talk about Indian power and greatness but then treat it like a wh*re that has to sell itself.

 

[ezsasa]

Utter nonsense.

Like I said there are countless modern mil projects that see concurrent development. Accepting the LCH into service now will allow HAL to stabilise production, work out any issues there may be with production and operational service ahead of the ATGM issue being addressed if the IA/IAF could look beyond their noses for a moment and see the bigger picture they would understand this. But these morons don't think like this, Indian generals are trained up as import experts, they have no idea how to create anything or support local developments. They will recite foreign brochures but have no idea of what is available in their own backyard.


Besides, HELINA will be ready for operational deployments in the next 1-2 years, how long before the Apaches that are to be ordered in 2020 come? 3 years minimum. So even the argument that you are buying an off the shelf ready to fight solution falls flat.

Besides Rudra (and LCH if entered into service now) still has rockets and a cannon, ATGM is the only thing outstanding.


The point is, what is IA's/IAF's long term vision (do they have one or are they just drooling over foreign toys?)? If it is IBGs supported by 150++ attack helicopters (Rudras don't count) then LCH is the obvious way to get to this goal and hence needs long term support from day one. Any war that breaks out in the next 2-3 years can be handled by existing systems (Mi-35s still have some teeth) so this argument that LCH can't be accepted because it doesn't have ATGMs is so myopic to the point that I can't even comprehend how someone can actually make it.

Man, projects like F35, AH-46E, AH-1Z etc etc all have 100s/1000s of committed orders from the outset and Indian companies have to beg and plead for just 15 LSP models.




So by that logic what's the need for the LCH at all? Rudra is a perfect substitute for the LCH?


Indian leadership is too immature and ignorant to understand what statesmanship is, they think they are buying influence, they think of their country as a backwater 3rd rate power that has to suck up to the big boys. They talk a big talk about Indian power and greatness but then treat it like a wh*re that has to sell itself.

Can it be the case that current procurement discussion is happening without considering all factors.

Is challakere site ready for LCH production? I remember seeing job openings(junior roles) even last month, from HAL. Would the entire recruitment process for new manufacturing unit completed so soon.

IISC was supposed to open a skill training centre with HAL partnership at Chitradurga, is it ready?

Is DRDO’s test range at challakere fully operational?

Has any aircraft manufacturing started at chitradurga?

 

[abingdonboy]

Can it be the case that current procurement discussion is happening without considering all factors.

Is challakere site ready for LCH production? I remember seeing job openings(junior roles) even last month, from HAL. Would the entire recruitment process for new manufacturing unit completed so soon.

IISC was supposed to open a skill training centre with HAL partnership at Chitradurga, is it ready?

Is DRDO’s test range at challakere fully operational?

Has any aircraft manufacturing started at chitradurga?

LCH LSP production has already commenced- that is a fact.

Any additional production units would only be added for large scale orders, probably what HAL is setting up for at Greenfield locations


There's no justification for not having placed orders for the 15 LSP units to date, IA/IAF are just delaying the entire development project.


Production is now the key bottleneck for all Indian projects, before it was the R&D stage, then it was the validation stage but now it is the very last stage- services have only themselves to blame for this now, cannot use DRDO/PSUs as scapegoats any more. They complain about slow pace of deliveries but then only place orders in small piecemeal fashion.


I just want to see the Indian MIC opened up to export orders in a big way, the sooner Indian projects are no longer reliant on these morons in the services for 100% of their revenue the better.

 

[Pulkit]

After the reduced cost of 39000 crores, the cost will still be around 66 million per plane, not 40.

I might be wrong but the 39000 crore also includes support, maintenance, spares and infrastructure cost which is needed by IAF.
If you divide 39000 by 83 then yes the cost comes out to be close to 66mil but if you remove the cost of the above-stated parameters then it will come to 45 mil.
I had a discussion with an informed person and he stated that the cost of spares will be taking a major chunk of this price second to infra.

 

[ezsasa]

LCH LSP production has already commenced- that is a fact.

Any additional production units would only be added for large scale orders, probably what HAL is setting up for at Greenfield locations


There's no justification for not having placed orders for the 15 LSP units to date, IA/IAF are just delaying the entire development project.


Production is now the key bottleneck for all Indian projects, before it was the R&D stage, then it was the validation stage but now it is the very last stage- services have only themselves to blame for this now, cannot use DRDO/PSUs as scapegoats any more. They complain about slow pace of deliveries but then only place orders in small piecemeal fashion.


I just want to see the Indian MIC opened up to export orders in a big way, the sooner Indian projects are no longer reliant on these morons in the services for 100% of their revenue the better.

Good, This is much better line of conversation.

Here’s another angle.

And we have to remember that, we are not like US and China where skilled manpower picked up readily from the market. We also have to consider training manpower bottom up, and hope that who ever is attending those courses are properly certified as well. And then comes OJT and again a certification/probation.

Keep in mind, all this started only in 2016. Infra for the runway, HAL airport, manufacturing unit, etc etc also coming up there.

And after all this I am guessing, some of the HAL senior current employees have to be willing to move from Bangalore to chitradurga in hand holding phase. that would need some convincing to do.

And like you said, there are production capacity limitations at HAL Bangalore rotary wing at the moment, and they have a current production order for Rudra and Dhruv.

I haven’t set up manufacturing units in my profession, but I do have experience in setting up project infra. I’ll bet check list for setting up Chitradurga site to become operational will run into thousands of line items. It’s not a easy job, so let’s cut them some slack. They are setting up a green field unit for second time after 80 years or so.

I hope you understand, there are many factors that need to be considered.

Edit: and lastly, only thing that we know of that is happening at challakere site is TAPAS 201 test flights. and last crash was because of rapid change in air pressure during the flight. Does this mean runway is ready and radar was not in place at the time of crash, I don’t know.

 

[Chinmoy]

Nope, approx $1BN for these 6 Apaches



https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...apache-attack-helicopters/article30361497.ece


Even with spares and weapons what a horrendously expensive machine this will be and the Army wants 39+ of them? That's going to cost at least another $4-5BN. You could buy 36 more Rafales, 3+ SSN, 100+ LCH/Rudra/ALH, 400+ Arjuns etc etc for similar money.



The Fin Min flagged the cost of 6 A330 MRTT for $1BN as too expensive back in 2010ish but this just sails through?

There's no sense or logic at work here, just morons with no sense.

Buying these gold-plated Apaches just to massage the egos of IA generals who were b*tthurt that the IAF got their toys and not them.



When there are funds shortages it only ever seems to be indigenous projects that suffer, imports still find a way to be finalised.

The report you have quoted is from 2019. Even the deal of 6 Helos been forwarded in 2015, much before LCH got IOC, which is getting accepted now.

But as of now during Trump's visit, there would be no deal signed. Only P-8I for IN as of now which delivery would commence in next fiscal, by April in all probability.