HAL Light Observation Helicopter (LOH/LUH)

[Armand2REP]

Nope they will not go with shakti engine this time. Better to get one of the shelf from some one else.

If they are buying off the shelf, they might as well complete the LUH tender. Look at LCA.

 

[halloweene]

Nope they will not go with shakti engine this time. Better to get one of the shelf from some one else.

Will you take the bet?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Actually unlike last time we today fortunately don't have any sanctions to take care of, so we can buy GE, P&W etc engines straight without competitive bidding. Or we just pay Turbomica more to get Shakti ready for single engine operation.

Actually once LUH program progress to some significance for our sellers to consider, the options would pop up like mushrooms.......

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Highly respected BR Forum member "Singha" opines: (in quotes)

"..in case of LUH the two biggest problems - engine + gearbox and cockpit+avioics is proven and sourced from Dhruv which is already in service so I forsee less risk or chance of delays of HAL devotes the proper cycles on this. and they have data bank from flight test pgms of Dhruv , Rudra and LCH to steal from and predict / optimize things.

imo its a no brainer and we should go for it , the only thing which scares me is there was a report that French (turbomeca) were demanding a arm and leg for single engine mods to Ardigen and "HAL was looking at other engine options" - DONT DO IT ! pay 15% extra but use the proven drivetrain instead of tortuous process of selecting another maker, another engine, another set of problems...."

This is , in my opinion, an excellent post, and I have posted here on DFI.

The inference of his post , as I see it, is this:

> There is a market for 500 + choppers of this class in our country, from Armed Forces and Para military (Spec:7 seater, 15000 ft +, Single Engine, Avionics contemporary, reliable , etc)

> We already have most of the tech + design database with us + Mfg. line + pool of engineers + Heritage + History + Partners + etc. courtesy HAL.

> So , its simple. HAL only needs to ensure good implementation and no slip ups, and we can rock (Maybe become bigger than Eurocopter / Augusta with this Single Order)

Price row prompts HAL to look elsewhere for chopper engine

BANGALORE: A dispute over fees may hamper French firm Turbomeca's chances of participating in the development of Shakti engines for Light Utility Helicopter programme.

Turbomeca has asked for a higher fee to fit the LUH, with Shakti engine, jointly developed with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), prompting the state-owned defence undertaking to look elsewhere. "We have been in dialogue with other engine manufacturers," P Soundara Rajan, managing director of HAL's helicopter complex, told The Economic Times in an interview.

The LUH, which will have both civil and military variants, will replace the obsolete Chetak and Cheetah helicopter fleets of the forces. The Shakti engine currently powers the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter-Mark-III as well as HAL's Light Combat Helicopter.

However, the Shakti has a twin-engine configuration, and HAL has been re-evaluating its options in converting it to a singleengine platform on which the LUH is based. "We will have to take a call shortly on whether the twin-engine platform will be a good fit. This should be done by the end of the year. There are design and qualification changes that have to be worked out," Soundara Rajan said.

The country's largest aeronautics company will also have to consider certification issues, such as the changes in the gearbox design, in order to incorporate the Shakti engine into the single-engine LUH, he said. "There are a number of costs involved, plus efforts in design, engineering, qualification and certification. One has to look at economic viability. These are techno-commercial decisions that have to be taken," the helicopter complex managing director said.

It is yet unclear whether the French manufacturer has drawn up a fresh proposal for the programme. In response to an email questionnaire sent by ET, Turbomeca said the Shakti engine would be "well-suited to meet the propulsion requirements of the LUH programme".

"Therefore, the possibility of its installation on this aircraft is under discussions between HAL and Turbomeca," an email from the company said. Soundara Rajan has also confirmed that HAL-Turbomeca joint venture was not under evaluation. However, companies such as Honeywell and Rolls-Royce are believed to be in talks with the state-owned defence undertaking. General Electric and Honeywell did not respond to emails sent by ET.

In an email statement, Prat & Whitney spokesperson said: "Prat & Whitney is not in discussion with HAL for engines on the LUH". In a statement, Rolls-Royce declined to comment on specifics.

"Rolls-Royce has class-leading helicopter engines that are wellmatched to LUH requirements. An opportunity to power the platform, in collaboration with Indian partners, is of high potential interest and such collaboration would draw upon our over 200 million flight hours of helicopter engine experience and decades of working in partnership with Indian industry, to serve the needs of the Indian military . However Rolls-Royce does not comment on specific on-going campaigns," it added.

Discord between partners in the defence industry is nothing new. In 2002, HAL entered into a joint venture with a Russian consortium that included aerospace giants Irkut Aviation, Ilyushin Aviation Complex and Rosoboronexport, to develop a multi-role transport aircraft for India and Russia, only for Irkut to pull out six years later. The project got back on track only in late-2009.

The Cassidian-Larsen & Toubro JV also ran into trouble after government regulator, the Foreign Investment Promotion Board , rejected their earlier proposed equity structure. The three-tonne LUH has been designated as one of HAL's future flagship products.

Price row prompts HAL to look elsewhere for chopper engine - The Economic Times

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Actually, I have many queries for @Decklander, but he never shows up when I need him to...

He's like the Dark Knight..

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

I asked about Design Books for Helos and other stuff...................

 

[Decklander]

Actually, I have many queries for @Decklander, but he never shows up when I need him to...

He's like the Dark Knight..

Bro, I have been a fixed wing pilot I can suggest best of books about them but my knowledge about helos is very limited.

 

[sasi]

Highly respected BR Forum member "Singha" opines: (in quotes)

"..in case of LUH the two biggest problems - engine + gearbox and cockpit+avioics is proven and sourced from Dhruv which is already in service so I forsee less risk or chance of delays of HAL devotes the proper cycles on this. and they have data bank from flight test pgms of Dhruv , Rudra and LCH to steal from and predict / optimize things.

imo its a no brainer and we should go for it , the only thing which scares me is there was a report that French (turbomeca) were demanding a arm and leg for single engine mods to Ardigen and "HAL was looking at other engine options" - DONT DO IT ! pay 15% extra but use the proven drivetrain instead of tortuous process of selecting another maker, another engine, another set of problems...."

This is , in my opinion, an excellent post, and I have posted here on DFI.

The inference of his post , as I see it, is this:

> There is a market for 500 + choppers of this class in our country, from Armed Forces and Para military (Spec:7 seater, 15000 ft +, Single Engine, Avionics contemporary, reliable , etc)

> We already have most of the tech + design database with us + Mfg. line + pool of engineers + Heritage + History + Partners + etc. courtesy HAL.

> So , its simple. HAL only needs to ensure good implementation and no slip ups, and we can rock (Maybe become bigger than Eurocopter / Augusta with this Single Order)

just add to it. Old news-
http://idrw.org/?p=21405
According to the latest issue of " Force Magazine ", HAL has selected Turbomeca's Shakti 1U engine over the Rolls Royce Honeywell LHTEC CTS-800 engine to power Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) . Turbomeca's. Shakti 1U engine is a derivative of theShakti 1H1 engine used on Dhruv. Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) Program has been stuck due to delays in selection of the engines .
Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) isa 3-tonne, single-engine helicopter which will be inducted by the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force and will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. HAL is already working on the first Prototype and plans are to built three prototypes beforeit hits production .
First flight of LUH might take place next year and HAL hasno plans to built Limited Series Production (LSP) helicopters and the LUH will directly enter series production after the three prototypes are built and testflown.The LUH will look to service a requirement of 184helicopters for the three services to augment the 197being procured through a global tender, The 197 copter bid, being contended by Eurocopter's AS550 C3 Fennec and the Russian Ka-226T Sergei but the Deal has been Suspended, Indefinitely.
In November 2012, the bottom structure assembly ofthe LUH ground test vehicle was completed . Turbomeca's. Shakti 1U engine will feature a dual channel FADEC along with an additional back up channel toprovide extra safety margin for single engine operation (an important feature at highaltitudes). Turbomeca will also develop the back up control and perform other minor modifications as required by HAL.

 

[Sridhar]

Moreover, French firm Turbomeca has only now been selected as the engine supplier. The first engine is slated for delivery only by June 2014," said the source

Armed forces' bid to acquire helicopters hits hurdles - The Times of India

 

[arnabmit]

HAL to deliver light choppers for high altitude operations in 2015 | idrw.org
SOURCE: PTI

Indian aerospace major HAL is developing an indigenous light utility helicopter to ferry troops and supplies in high altitude areas such as Siachen Glacier as a programme to procure 197 such choppers from foreign sellers is delayed in view of a CBI probe. The programme for developing the three-tonne helicopter is in the 'design freeze' stage after consultations with the armed forces headquarters, including the Army and Air Force

The machine is expected to be ready by 2015. "The LUH programme is progressing well and the project has achieved 'design freeze' following the concurrence from armed forces headquarters. The first ground test vehicle is being readied for factory tests," Hindustan Aeronautics Limited officials said in New Delhi. The single-engine chopper would be powered by a French engine, which has been chosen by the country's only aerospace company through a tendering process.

Asked whether they would be able to meet the scheduled timeline of 2015, HAL officials said, "We are confident about adhering to the timeline specified by the government." The need for developing an indigenous light chopper was felt by HAL soon after Kargil War where Indian and Pakistani troops were engaged in a limited conflict for over 40 days at altitudes of above 10,000 feet. Earlier, the plan was to supply 384 light choppers to the Army and IAF of which 197 were to be procured from foreign vendors while the remaining were to be produced by HAL. But, at the moment, the plan to procure 197 choppers from abroad is stuck due to various reasons.

The first tender to procure the choppers was scrapped by Defence Minister AK Antony after some wrongdoing was detected in them. The second tender has been stuck for over a year now after the government ordered a CBI probe into allegations that a Brigadier had sought a bribe of around Rs 25 crore for helping a particular vendor in the case. These choppers are mainly deployed in high-altitude areas in Ladakh to provide supplies to Indian troops deployed there at heights of between 10,000-23,000 feet.

 

[Defcon 1]

HAL to deliver light choppers for high altitude operations in 2015 | idrw.org
SOURCE: PTI

Indian aerospace major HAL is developing an indigenous light utility helicopter to ferry troops and supplies in high altitude areas such as Siachen Glacier as a programme to procure 197 such choppers from foreign sellers is delayed in view of a CBI probe. The programme for developing the three-tonne helicopter is in the 'design freeze' stage after consultations with the armed forces headquarters, including the Army and Air Force

The machine is expected to be ready by 2015. "The LUH programme is progressing well and the project has achieved 'design freeze' following the concurrence from armed forces headquarters. The first ground test vehicle is being readied for factory tests," Hindustan Aeronautics Limited officials said in New Delhi. The single-engine chopper would be powered by a French engine, which has been chosen by the country's only aerospace company through a tendering process.

Asked whether they would be able to meet the scheduled timeline of 2015, HAL officials said, "We are confident about adhering to the timeline specified by the government." The need for developing an indigenous light chopper was felt by HAL soon after Kargil War where Indian and Pakistani troops were engaged in a limited conflict for over 40 days at altitudes of above 10,000 feet. Earlier, the plan was to supply 384 light choppers to the Army and IAF of which 197 were to be procured from foreign vendors while the remaining were to be produced by HAL. But, at the moment, the plan to procure 197 choppers from abroad is stuck due to various reasons.

The first tender to procure the choppers was scrapped by Defence Minister AK Antony after some wrongdoing was detected in them. The second tender has been stuck for over a year now after the government ordered a CBI probe into allegations that a Brigadier had sought a bribe of around Rs 25 crore for helping a particular vendor in the case. These choppers are mainly deployed in high-altitude areas in Ladakh to provide supplies to Indian troops deployed there at heights of between 10,000-23,000 feet.

Before this gets hopes of anyone up, I would to point out that when Rudra was given IOC, HAL did say that they expect that first "prototype" of LUH will start flying by next aero India, by 2015, the final machine will come much later.

 

[ninja85]

Whatever it is, it uses the patented Fenestron® tail rotor. You can't build that without purchasing a license from France.

lets change the rotor.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Nope, from mock up its clear the rotor is conventional..........no worries, only Eurocopter use that Technology "Fenerstorm", everyone else is quite happy with the conventional thing...........

Whatever it is, it uses the patented Fenestron® tail rotor. You can't build that without purchasing a license from France.

 

[ubuntu]

 

[cobra commando]

HAL for design review of proposed LUH rotor

August 19, 2014: Learning from past mistakes that have spelt trouble for the ALH programme, HAL has decided to go in for a critical design review of the rotor system it has developed for the Light Utility Helicopter prototype. While HAL is moving ahead with the rotor development, the design team has felt it felt necessary to review the rotor system design (critical design review) by an independent agency in order to preclude issues which could come up during the rig tests and flight tests. According to HAL, the rotor design is based on the earlier experience of developing a 5.5 ton class helicopter. The main rotor of the helicopter is a four bladed hinge less type rotor with FEL rotor head with elastomeric bearings (Conical and Radial). The tail rotor is a four bladed bearing less rotor designed to meet all the anti- torque, directional control and manoeuvring requirements. For the review, HAL expects that there will not be major changes in the type of rotor system adopted: hingeless concept for the main rotor, bearingless concept for the tail rotor, number of blades, etc. The design review of the rotor system design needs to primarily cover the safety of design, flying quality characteristics, vibration issues, manufacturing, maintenance, time before overhaul and lifing.
SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation

 

[brational]

Seems all HAL scientists in the image have had their mid life overhaul long back. There must be a strong lobby of the older scientists in Hal/drdo.

 

[cobra commando]

HAL to accelerate LUH programme

August 30, 2014: The scrapping of the 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopter (RSH) programme has placed fresh onus on HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) project that targets a first flight by next year. HAL's LUH is in a tense race against time to service a requirement of 187 helicopters. With the scrapping of the RSH programme, HAL has the opportunity to make up for lost time and ensure no further slippages in acquiring systems and getting the chopper off the ground on time next year. MoD stipulations on the project were that for every waypoint that HAL missed on its development flightpath, the parallel RSH procurement programme would gain with corresponding follow-on orders, thereby chipping away at HAL's total order numbers. Top sources at HAL tell SP's that the company's helicopter division has decided to push full throttle on the LUH programme now, sniffing the opportunity of some valuable breathing space. A desperate Indian Army and IAF could also be persuaded to show more support for the LUH with the collapse of the RSH acquisition for now.
HAL to accelerate LUH programme - SP�s Exculsive

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

India to build 440 light utility choppers defence

The Indian armed forces have projected a combined requirement of 440 light utility helicopters which will now be manufactured indigenously involving the state-owned HAL and private sector firms in partnership with foreign players.

The IAF, Army and the Navy require 440 choppers and these would now be manufactured within India including the HAL, private sector firms and foreign players, Defence Ministry officials said here.

The armed forces had projected their their requirements to the Defence Ministry before the government scrapped a Rs 6,000 crore tender to procure 197 such helicopters for the Army and the Air Force, they said.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has already started a project in Tumkur, Karnataka for building light helicopters, which will have capability to lift 2.5 tonnes payload.

Last Friday, the Defence Acquisition Council headed by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley had scrapped the scam-tainted tender for procuring the choppers to replace the vintage fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.

The DAC decided to retract from the tender for procuring these choppers and the Indian industry would be given the opportunity to produce around 400 such choppers for the requirements of the armed forces.

In line with NDA government's plan to develop the indigenous industry, the decision is expected to generate business worth over Rs 40,0000 crore for the local industry in the defence sector, they said.

This is the second time in seven years the tender has been scrapped in which European Eurocopter and Russian Kamov were competing and it had been on hold for over two years due to an ongoing CBI probe and allegations of wron- gdoings in the trial process.

India to build 440 light utility choppers defence | Business Standard News

 

[Zebra]

HAL Preparing For Its Most Ambitious Helicopter Program Ever

Source : Bindiya Thomas ~ Dated : Friday, September 12, 2014

After cancelling an international tender to procure 197 utility helicopters, the Indian MoD has fallen back on Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to fill the gap with its Light Utility Helicopter (LUH).

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) reported approved a proposal to allow HAL to manufacture 440 light utility helicopters to be supplied to the Army, Navy and Air Force earlier this month. HAL will work with private sector firms in partnership with foreign players, according to various reports. However it's unclear who these partners might be.

According to unconfirmed reports, HAL is rushing to finish development of the prototype which it plans to unveil in time for the Aero India show scheduled to take place in February 2015.

HAL Director (Design & Development), N C Agarwal talked about the design freeze last year telling local media that "the drawings are getting released and the parts are getting manufactured."

"The LUH programme is progressing well and the project has achieved 'design freeze' following the concurrence from armed forces headquarters.

 

[Zebra]

HAL might reveal First Prototype of LUH at Aero India 2015 | idrw.org