HAL Light Observation Helicopter (LOH/LUH)

Armand2REP

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So why the charade of this 2nd retender for 197 LUH? We all know GoI wants this instead.
 

plugwater

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Thanks for the pictures. But we have plans for LOH with this design


Can anyone shed some light on this LUH ?
 

Armand2REP

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Can anyone shed some light on this LUH ?
Whatever it is, it uses the patented Fenestron® tail rotor. You can't build that without purchasing a license from France.
 

plugwater

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Whatever it is, it uses the patented Fenestron® tail rotor. You can't build that without purchasing a license from France.
Maybe they changed the design to their own design instead of purchasing the license.
 

Armand2REP

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Maybe they changed the design to their own design instead of purchasing the license.
They might use that argument, same as China but it won't hold up in an arbitration with France filing the complaint. India does not want a sanction from France, all Indian made helicopters rely on it.
 

Rahul Singh

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I'll like to congratulate HAL for building this can't-be-better looking full scale mock-up of LUH. HAL is finally maturing and realizing that to succeed PR and performance can't be kept in isolation.

To my belief this helicopter will for sure give Bell 407 shen run for its money, at least in Indian market.....

Whatever it is, it uses the patented Fenestron® tail rotor. You can't build that without purchasing a license from France.
India is not china, if needed HAL will surely buy license. Must mention that the model of LOH you reacted to was build many years ago and was demonstrated only to show HAL's future plans.

I think, looking at this mock-up, HAL has finally dumped plan to use 'Fenestron tail roater' probably after finding it as unnecessary.
 
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tarunraju

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They might use that argument, same as China but it won't hold up in an arbitration with France filing the complaint. India does not want a sanction from France, all Indian made helicopters rely on it.
I think he meant that later they opted out of using Fenestron because there are patent issues attached to it, and used a standard design instead.
 

gogbot

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You think so? LCH has consistently been delayed for a year with weight issues. It took Dhruv 18 years to go from concept to reality. Even India isn't expecting LUH in operation until 2017. I do believe 2015 is the target date for first flight.
So Armand2REP , you still think it will take 5 more years to make the LUH fly and 8 years to make it operational.
 

Patriot

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As HAL has gained lot of experience from last two projects ALH & LCH and critical technologies has been almost developed. I believe , the first LOH prototype should roll out within two to three years.
 

Anshu Attri

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Ansat
they are looking almost similar...........
 
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Agantrope

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The actual requirement is something around 380 .. its broken into two separate tenders ..
197 is procured from foreign countries and rest will be LUH/LOH. btw this is a nice beauty looks like child of Dhruv and Fennec
 

plugwater

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HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

The Light Utility Helicopter (LuH), which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is designing for the Indian military, has encountered turbulence even before leaving the drawing board. French engine-maker Turbomeca, whose vaunted Shakti engine was to power the LuH, is demanding what Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources term "extortionist prices" for integrating the Shakti with the LuH.

HAL had paid Turbomeca to develop the Shakti engine for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH); and the Shakti also powers the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that HAL is developing. Because the Shakti is custom-designed for the high altitudes — between 15,000 and 20,000 feet — that characterise much of India's border, and because HAL and Turbomeca will jointly manufacture the engine in India, the Shakti was selected to also power the LuH.

But the Dhruv and the LCH are twin-engine helicopters, while the lighter LuH will fly with a single Shakti engine. That requires Turbomeca to design a new transmission for the LuH. Additionally, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will have to certify the Shakti for single-engine operation. To HAL's dismay, Turbomeca has demanded Rs 190 crore for these jobs, more than half the LuH's entire budget of Rs 376 crore.

In formulating the LuH development budget, HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply, to benefit from additional orders of hundreds of Shakti engines over the service life of the LuH.

An outraged HAL board, having decided against paying so much to Turbomeca, has approached other engine-makers — including General Electric, Honeywell, Rolls-Royce, and Pratt & Whitney — for an engine for the LuH.

Reliable MoD sources tell Business Standard that Turbomeca is now negotiating with HAL to compromise on a price for the Shakti. The French company has offered to reduce the cost by Rs 90 crore, provided that the amount is adjusted against its offset liability. But HAL rejected that offer last week, telling Turbomeca that even Rs 100 crore is too high a price. Turbomeca is now preparing a fresh proposal.

Senior HAL sources complain that Turbomeca is taking advantage of the rigid timelines that the defence ministry has imposed on HAL in the LuH project. The MoD has split its order for 384 LuHs between a global tender for 197 ready-built LuHs; and an order for HAL to develop and build 187 LuHs by 2017. The MoD has specified a target date for each of the LuH's development milestones: building of a mock-up; the design freeze; the first flight; Initial Operational Clearance, and so on. Each time HAL misses a milestone, its order reduces from 187.

Turbomeca apparently believes that these time obligations reduce HAL's bargaining leverage. HAL, however, has decided early not to put all its eggs in the Turbomeca basket.

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak — responding to a question from Business Standard whether a new engine for the LuH made sense when the Shakti would allow the standardisation of a common engine across many more helicopters — replied, "We are using the Shakti engine for the Dhruv and for the LCH. It is not necessary to also use it on the LuH. How many helicopter manufacturers use a common engine on three entirely different helicopters? One should not overdo the standardisation aspect".

So far, HAL is comfortably beating the MoD clock and plans to beat the 2017 deadline by a full two years. It has built a mock-up within the timeline; plans to freeze the LuH design by the end of this year; fly the LuH for the first time by 2012; certify it by 2014, and begin delivery by 2015.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/hal-confronts-snecma-in-light-helicopter-project/399963/
 

Armand2REP

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Well, there is no law that says India has to accept our offer. There is no law that says we have to take pennies in the hope of "future" orders either. They want us to design and manufacture a brand new transmission and integration for far less than 100 crore. They probably want it for $15 million. That is the value of one medium helicopter. There isn't any profit in that. HAL won't sign another deal for new engines as it would cost far more to set up a second production line; Much less making light of standardisation. If you can get one engine for three helicopters, that is an awesome achievement for the logistics and value trains. By the statement from HAL, it is pretty obvious this is just another ploy to try to get France to lower her price. No one else will do the job anyway. Turbomeca is the only engine manufacturer that benefits from the declined Euro so it will be unprofitable for P&W or RR to bid for it.
 

plugwater

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Finally a HAL project is beating the schedule by 2 years. hope this problem with new transmission do not delay the project much. Why HAL is so adamant to spend 100 crore ? I would prefer finishing the project in schedule any day over 100 crore.
 

Armand2REP

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Finally a HAL project is beating the schedule by 2 years. hope this problem with new transmission do not delay the project much. Why HAL is so adamant to spend 100 crore ? I would prefer finishing the project in schedule any day over 100 crore.
This is typical of Indian MoD. They did the same BS with the Scorpène. They under-budget the cost and when it comes time to pay they sabotage the monkey works. Similar thing happened with LUH cancellation and the tankers. Whenever it is a French company India doesn't have the money and it takes years to get them to sign. With Russia it only takes a few months even when Russia is asking for 10% more every year.
 

bhogta

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Don't love Franch so much. They looting us believe me. We HAL ppl fed up by them. If we have any other option i think we should go.
 

Rahul Singh

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It is good to see HAL learning business. This tag may be judicious as per Turbomeca but for us it is outrageous and that matters most. Customer is always free to shop from where it wants but it is always expected from shopkeeper to respect old relations and favors coming in form of large consistent orders and Turbomeca should have respected that.

Anyway it is upto Turbomeca to see what makes better deal. BTW i will like to remind to anyone concerned that France is not Russia and our military is not dependent on french products for existence. Before someone take an action, one should always honestly judge his/her/its stature.

HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project
What i liked most is HAL saying flat no to an extortionist by saying "we need not to over standardize things". After all how long we will allow people to keep seeing India as a wealthy(in related sense) but easy to be looted nation.
 
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